Have we decided to live the lesser law?


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58 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I shudder to think how a Nigerian Latter-Day Saint relief society meeting is going to take this message as to how to become a successful LDS juggling mother / lawyer / church leading role model.

I find that unlikely to be a result of the current messaging.

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20 hours ago, laronius said:

If one woman feels the Lord directing them to have a job while rearing a family then obviously that is what needs to happen.

It is not at all obvious to me that the woman who feels the Lord directing her to have a job is obviously being told by God that she should have a job.

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41 minutes ago, Vort said:

Make it make sense. That's all I ask. And if the way you make it make sense is by discarding as "outdated" or "ignorant" the inspired teachings of past prophets and leaders, then I won't accept what you claim to be sensible.

While on the whole, I'm on your side on the issue, I believe both of the bolded words to be an unfair and inaccurate interpretation of my post.

My point is that a system works because all or most of the parts are available and functioning in some capacity.  Society has removed so many of the parts that the traditional family has come depended on, that we need to make other contingency plans than we have in past generations.  For one thing, past generations actually discouraged women from even seeking higher education.  My father actually balked at the idea that my wife wanted to get a degree (which my labor would pay for).  And, yes, he was fairly typical of his generation.

Now, your point about Sis. Johnson's statement:  Yes, I am disturbed by it.  On its face, it appears to say,"Hey sisters!  You really CAN have it all! -- with or without men."

But she didn't say that.  She said that they, as a couple, sought the Lord's guidance in prayer and faith.  And as far as we know, she was perfectly willing to follow the Lord's counsel if she were told to quit school and become a SAHM.  That was not discussed in the snippet shown above.  What was shown above was that 

Quote

Family was, and still is, our top priority... We were trying to let God prevail.

...

From a financial and professional perspective, it would have made sense to put off having children until I was more established in my career.

<but they didn't do that>

It sounded like she prayerfully made a joint decision between her, her husband, and the Lord.

Then Pres. Oaks' response was not about being a lawyer or getting her education.

Quote

You are a wonderful role model of a lifelong commitment to prioritize your role as a mother and to continue to seek learning.

...the early development of my faith in the Lord came mostly from my mother and grandmother.

What about that is any different from the messaging we received in generations past?

I also acknowledged that this does have a dangerous side to it.  People (read: career women) could EASILY take this to mean that women can go and become career women and ignore the family without any spiritual, emotional, mental, or social repercussions for her or her family.  Unfortunately MANY women (and men) will take it that way.  And they'd all be wrong.

Compare Sis Johnson's word to my wife's grandmother who said, "If I had it to do over again, I never would have had kids."  And this wasn't because her kids were maladjusted.  They were all fine human beings.  And none of them became inactive or lost their testimony.  But in her old age she decided that she could have had a much more successful career than she did have if only she didn't have to worry about those kids taking up all her time.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

While on the whole, I'm on your side on the issue, I believe both of the bolded words to be an unfair and inaccurate interpretation of my post.

FTR, I did not have your post or your words in mind. I was speaking very generally. I value and usually agree with yout takes on things.

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7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

10 or 12 years ago, there was a general conference address given by your sister pushing education in the ability to work on women pretty hard. It was heavy on statistics, and statistics were saying that most Mormon women would have to work at least a portion of their lives. 

I looked around the church website.  It's been too long and I don't remember which link I was thinking of, but here's what I found:

1981 General Conference - The Honored Place of Woman - Ezra Taft Benson (President of the Q12 at the time)  I think this talk is representative of what folks are harkening back to in this thread.

1995 - THE FAMILY:A PROCLAMATION TO THE WORLD - 1st Presidency & Q12
"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation."

Still the gold standard in my opinion.  I remember when it came out, people were having basically the same conversation we're having now.  People were troubled that "women shouldn't work outside the home" wasn't clearly stated, or even alluded to.  Some folks thought this language basically gave the ok to women to send their kids to daycare, as long as when the kid was actually at home, mom did most of the nurturing.

 

2011 General Conference - LDS Women Are Incredible! - Elder Quentin L. Cook
"These are very emotional, personal decisions, but there are two principles that we should always keep in mind. First, no woman should ever feel the need to apologize or feel that her contribution is less significant because she is devoting her primary efforts to raising and nurturing children. Nothing could be more significant in our Father in Heaven’s plan. Second, we should all be careful not to be judgmental or assume that sisters are less valiant if the decision is made to work outside the home. We rarely understand or fully appreciate people’s circumstances. Husbands and wives should prayerfully counsel together, understanding they are accountable to God for their decisions."

The whole talk is worth reading through completely.

 

BYU Women’s Conference 2011 - Julie B. Beck
"One of the questions that I get frequently is, “Is it okay if I work outside of my home?” You have to know that as an international, global, Relief Society president, that question isn’t always appropriate in all of the world’s countries. There are many, many places where if our women don’t work, they don’t eat. So of course they have to work. The question of whether or not to work is the wrong question. The question is, “Am I aligned with the Lord’s vision of me and what He needs me to become and the roles and responsibilities He gave me in heaven that are not negotiable? Am I aligned with that, or am I trying to escape my duties?” Those are the kinds of things we need to understand."

 

Data is always interesting:
image.thumb.png.b8974f0399c4e3bcad924b3067c6b468.png

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

It is not at all obvious to me that the woman who feels the Lord directing her to have a job is obviously being told by God that she should have a job.

I generally like to take people at their word. If she said she felt the Lord's approval in pursuing a career then who am I to judge? I imagine those experiences are serving her mighty well right about now. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Vort said:

I do not believe this. Especially for men who work a professional job, the virtue of living within one's means is almost universally available.

Yup, I could go on for hours about this.

I live in CA so it’s hopefully a local issue, but keeping up with the Jones’s is alive and well here - including the LDS church.

My wife has never worked outside the house and we have exclusively homeschooled our children.

Although we have 11 children we have never had more then 2 cars.  I drive a 9 year old pick-up truck with 150,000 miles, it drives great.

I make a good living but It seems like the majority of cars I see on the highway or church parking lot are fancier than mine.

I’m a bit of an extrovert but I’m observant.  I see LDS mothers returning to get an education or work because - frankly I don’t know…  As far as I can tell their husbands have good jobs and can adequately provide for the family.

Plastic surgery, therapists, antidepressants, RVs, Ski & fishing boats are aplenty.

IMG_0436.thumb.jpeg.bdd434a0f5c777abd859ce6e32a2b025.jpeg

This is from a father son campout last night.  The 3 younger boys in the family.  They are all wearing hand-me-downs or clothes from goodwill or ebay.

If you notice, they caught this fish without a pole.  Trick I learned in Chile, wrap the line around a tin can (or Coke  can here in the states).  You get the lure going with centrifugal force then release, and line up the long axis of the can with the direction of lure release.  Works great.  Cheap and functional.  Didn’t need a bass boat or a pole.  And most of the other children wanted to try it.

My backup plan to medical school was highschool teacher and coach.  I would have been great.  And my J.D. wife would still have stayed home and raised our children.

 

Edited by mikbone
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On 5/4/2024 at 3:11 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

There are already repercussions. 

 

3 hours ago, Vort said:

I do not believe this. Especially for men who work a professional job, the virtue of living within one's means is almost universally available.

Well here in Australia the cost of living is disgusting. The housing market here is the worst, second to Canada. I can't afford a house within an hour of my work place, and fuel cost around $2 a litre. I've seen two bedroom houses that need heaps of renovations on 500m sq go for over 650k. I dont live in a city and rentals are insane, and we are heavily taxed.

I'm working full time but my wife can't ,and I never wanted her to have to work full time. I am struggling to get ahead. Unless you have both partners working you can't get ahead.

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2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Well after reading all of the above posts and carefully considering the counsel of our church leaders I have firmly resolved that never in this life will I be a stay at home mum. :)

An exceedingly wise decision. Bravo!

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Posted (edited)

IMG_0440.thumb.jpeg.738d10145c89ef0a3d21a75cfbc94840.jpeg

 

At work, I heal the lame.  People don’t seem to care how many hours it took me to learn my trade.  

One of the questions I always ask patients is if they have had prior orthopedic surgery.  They usually remember the surgery, but rarely if ever, the name of the surgeon.

I have spent many hours away from my family due to my profession:  120 hour work weeks during the 5 year residency, emergency surgeries, weekend call and cases.  The children notice.

My mom worked @ a company that made bathrooms for LaQuinta hotel, while I spent time in day care, preschool, etc.

I made it a priority to make sure my children had a mother that was there for them.

Occasionally a patient will ask for a hug.  And it’s nice. But can’t compare to a hug from a child or spouse.

Edited by mikbone
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When I read the scriptures and read stories of how people are all about how they a following the dead prophets but seems to ignore and belittle the living prophets...  And I often wonder how could they be so foolish.  Then I read threads like this and I am like ah so that how it begins.

Divine Laws are unchanging...  We we Humans in our fallen state are always changing.  Part of the role of God's prophets is to bridge that gap.  Part of their job is to council advise and direct us on how we can best fulfill Divine Law in an ever changing world.  For example the Old Testament has instructions from God's prophets on how to be a good slave owner.  No one in there right mind thinks that was a Divine Law or that we are some how running under a lesser Law because owning slaves is no longer considered a Good moral or ethical option.

When it comes to Families the most recent, most clear, and most authoritative instructions I think we have been given is the Proclamation on the Family.  It says many important things, but it never declares absolutely that Mothers must stay Home.  It declares that Mothers are the primary nurtures and that Fathers are the primary providers..  As a Father who has been listening to the prophets and councils of leaders I know that if I were to because state that because my wife has primary nurturing role that I do not need to do any I would be soundly thoroughly and rightly rebuked.    Because that is not what it says.  It outlines the general roles and responsibilities and then puts the burden of figuring out the right balance on the parents to figure out in prayerful council.

Therefore we should expect our leaders support and encourage any family that is following these instructions.  Now some devote followers might say they those with working wives are not really hearing from the Lord in these choices that they are letting there own desires override.  That might be true but that is an unrighteous judgement for us to be making about other people.  Other devote followers might engage in the sin of comparison.  We compare what we feel the Lord as commanded us to do for our families and then unrighteously expect that everyone else must get the same message no matter how different they might be.  This makes us more like the the 1st hour labors when they saw the payment of the 11th hour laborers

Now the church has clearly counciled in the past the wisdom of mothers being able stay home where possible.  I really do not see that as having changed.  I do see the church more acknowledging, that sometimes people can have a perfectly acceptable to the Lord (as much as any of us fallen people can be acceptable) family arrangement that is not part of the stereotype.  Given how many single parents or families that have to deal with very serious issues within the walls of there own home I am sure for many of them this is great comfort.  For those that don't have these struggles then be grateful and count your many blessing rather then being prideful that you are "doing it right" or jealous that they somehow are getting an easier option. 

For those that are feeling betrayed or that the Church leaders are failing....  REPENT before you stray much farther.  We might not like the direction the world is going but it is the last days and it is only going to get worse.  God will have his leaders adapt and adjust their counsel as needed as the world continues to fall.  If we fixate on past counsels we will miss the vital information the Prophets are giving us now.

 

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20 hours ago, mikbone said:

see LDS mothers returning to get an education or work because - frankly I don’t know

Do you think some of these women enjoy getting an education or working outside the home? 
 

The Catholic church forbids birth control but leadership wonders why family size is shrinking. There’s no grand conspiracy. The easiest answer is that the majority of Catholic women don’t want big families anymore, so they use contraception. 
 

Maybe it’s just as easy as that. I’m not commenting on the morality of the choice, just what I think happened. 

Edited by LDSGator
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We must also remember a lot of changes can and will take place in the future in the world. Economic turmoil is pretty much guaranteed. Potentially the collapse of the dollar or hyperinflation. Another world war could deprive many families of their bread winners. Plagues could take the lives of many bread winners. With advances in technology many job skills could become obsolete. As persecution increases we could potentially see an increase in break ups of families as loyalties become divided.

I'm sure there are even more factors that could influence women's ability to remain out of the workforce. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Do you think some of these women enjoy getting an education or working outside the home? 

Like I wrote, frankly I don’t know.

I have heard some talk of needing some mental stimulation.  Likely men are at fault for under appreciating their spouses.  Listing to the whisperings of Lucifer’s host - believing that their decisions were less rewarding or less important than a formal job.  That they missed out on getting a degree.

Some sort of dis-satisfaction…

I agree with Goodwill Hunting, “You spent $150,000 on an education that you could have got for $1.50 in late charges @ the local public library.”

An education does not require a university…

As for enjoying working outside the home.  I can’t understand it at all.  I work with many over educated men and women.  I have way more stimulating conversations with my children.  If me or any of the people that I work with won the lottery, we would quit our jobs overnight.  

I understand working women that must provide basic needs for their families.  Its the women that already have supporting husbands that confuse me.

 

Edited by mikbone
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, LDSGator said:

The Catholic church forbids birth control but leadership wonders why family size is shrinking. There’s no grand conspiracy. The easiest answer is that the majority of Catholic women don’t want big families anymore, so they use contraception.

Contraceptive use is up dramatically among LDS as well.  My eldest daughter was surprised and disappointed by some of the teachings that she received @ BYU concerning family planning and self care.

And infertility is a booming business.  Which isn’t surprising after taking contraceptives for a decade and then trying to have your first child during your 30’s or 40’s when it’s financially convenient.

IMG_0442.thumb.jpeg.8331d99282067f6434247a2700de36bd.jpeg

Edited by mikbone
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3 hours ago, mikbone said:

Like I wrote, frankly I don’t know.

I have heard some talk of needing some mental stimulation.  Likely men are at fault for under appreciating their spouses.  Listing to the whisperings of Lucifer’s host - believing that their decisions were less rewarding or less important than a formal job.  That they missed out on getting a degree.

Some sort of dis-satisfaction…

I agree with Goodwill Hunting, “You spent $150,000 on an education that you could have got for $1.50 in late charges @ the local public library.”

An education does not require a university…

As for enjoying working outside the home.  I can’t understand it at all.  I work with many over educated men and women.  I have way more stimulating conversations with my children.  If me or any of the people that I work with won the lottery, we would quit our jobs overnight.  

I understand working women that mist provide basic needs for their families.  Its the women that already have supporting husbands that confuse me.

 

Understand.
 

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

Contraceptive use is up dramatically among LDS as well.  My eldest daughter was surprised and disappointed by some of the teachings that she received @ BYU concerning family planning and self care.

 The “Quiet Revolution” that happened in Quebec is happening now in the states. That, or it already happened.   

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15 hours ago, mikbone said:

I have heard some talk of needing some mental stimulation.  Likely men are at fault for under appreciating their spouses.  Listing to the whisperings of Lucifer’s host - believing that their decisions were less rewarding or less important than a formal job.  That they missed out on getting a degree.

Some sort of dis-satisfaction…

I agree with Goodwill Hunting, “You spent $150,000 on an education that you could have got for $1.50 in late charges @ the local public library.”

An education does not require a university…

AMEN, brother.

My son only took a couple of classes at the local JC to explore what various professions were about.  Eventually he got some online training for $35 to become a drafter.  He did have the advantage of having access to the software through me.  But anyone else could have rented it for about $50/month.

He began his career before he even turned 20 years old.  He was making the average salary when he still lived under our roof.

When he left for his mission it was a disappointment for many at the company he worked for.  He was the best drafter they had.  Throughout his mission, people at the company kept calling me asking when he was coming back.  The date didn't change.  But they kept calling anyway.  They wanted to know if there was any way he could come home earlier. LOL!

Now he's back at that company with a hefty raise.  He has now moved from average salary to median salary.

That said, I need to admit that my son is a special case.  His brain is phenomenal.  I've never met anyone like him before.  And I know a LOT of very smart people.  It is possible that a particular friend of mine has a son with a mind like my son's.

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

As for enjoying working outside the home.  I can’t understand it at all.  I work with many over educated men and women.  I have way more stimulating conversations with my children.  If me or any of the people that I work with won the lottery, we would quit our jobs overnight.  

I understand working women that must provide basic needs for their families.  Its the women that already have supporting husbands that confuse me.

My wife always had a dream of being a wildlife biologist.  But she knew from her youth that being a mother was paramount.  So, she slowly took classes whenever we could afford it.

She eventually got an associate's degree (made Phi Beta Kappa) the same year that her daughter got hers.  And now in her middle age, she doesn't regret the choices she's made.  Our kids are just the best.  I could tell some stories.  But I'd be bragging too much. 

It is because they had a SAHM who was teaching and guiding them all the way.  They also had a father who taught them the roles of men and women.

All my children love to read (because of their mother).  They love having philosophical and Socratic discussions all the time.  And they have the wackiest sense of humor in any household I know of.

Edited by Carborendum
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I am convinced that those that worship and covenant at our temples are living a higher law and are preparing for the Messiah.  I do not believe that beyond what is currently provided in our temples will have any need for change until the Messiah returns.

 

The Traveler

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On 5/4/2024 at 2:34 PM, Vort said:

I do not believe this. Especially for men who work a professional job, the virtue of living within one's means is almost universally available.

I hope you're right, and it's what my husband and I always did so I could stay home. We financially struggled at times, but we were overall very, very blessed - many times so directly that we could not deny the Lord's hand in it. I guess I'm just giving working women the benefit of the doubt, but I hope they really do prioritize the kids and stay home if they are able.

We are in our early 40s. If it was hard for us, I just can't help but wonder how much harder it is for younger people, because of inflation, the cost of education, home prices, etc. I'm not talking about luxuries. For me personally, the very large recent jumps in household expenses have been needs. Insurance, property taxes, food, gas, and shelter....even water bills tripled in my neighborhood. I'm grateful that we are more established. How are people handling it who are just starting out in life? I think many of them get help from their parents.

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On 5/4/2024 at 5:37 PM, laronius said:
On 5/4/2024 at 2:32 PM, Vort said:

It is not at all obvious to me that the woman who feels the Lord directing her to have a job is obviously being told by God that she should have a job.

I generally like to take people at their word. If she said she felt the Lord's approval in pursuing a career then who am I to judge? I imagine those experiences are serving her mighty well right about now. 

I, too, generally take people at their word. But when I hear someone talk about a decision which, on the surface, seems not to agree well with the teachings of the gospel, and they justify their decision by saying, "God told me to do it that way", then I reserve the right not to accept their judgment at face value.

I know a woman who told me in perfect sincerity that she did not  pay tithing for a period of two years because God told her he didn't require it of her at that time. I do not claim that she was wrong; I grant that my understanding of the mind and will of God is imperfect (almost comical for me to use the word "imperfect" when the reality is light-years beyond me) and that God may well have told this sister exactly that. Who am I to say that God cannot do such a thing? But since her claim does not accord with my own understanding of God's commandments and with my own personal experiences, I feel no compulsion to accept her words at face value, either. I have no doubt she believed what she said. That doesn't indicate that it was actually so.

Just so, if a person (male or female) says that s/he was directed by God to take a job, or whatever else, I unapologetically reserve the right to make my own judgment as to how believable I find that claim.

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