God has a wife in heaven???

[yellows23]

In the other forum someone said that there is a mother who is married to God the father-wife.They have spirit children.What is the name of the mother and wife of God the Father??? The difference between LDS and NON_lds is the nature of God.In LDS,God the Father is flesh and bones.Non -Lds,God the father is a spirit-Trinity. Did Joseph Smith say that God was a man-motral first who become a God??? Both LDS and non-LDS believe Mary was born a virgin.

[a-train]

Yes, God the Father has flesh and bones. He lived a mortal life just like Jesus and rose to immortality and eternal life just as Jesus did. After having done this, He begat countless spiritual children. He ultimately brought these children to a grand council in heaven.

In the grand council, God the Father outlined important future possibilities and His Plan for His spirit children. He told us that He would create an earth and we would go there and be tested to see if we will do His will.

The earth was ultimately created and the spirit children of God the Father obtain physical bodies as they are born here on the earth. Our spiritual existance with God before our birth is called by LDS folks: the premortal existance or the antemortal existance.

We know that our spiritual birth in our premortal existance was brought forth by a mother. That is about all we know about this mother. We know no name for her. We also know that the spiritual body we obtained in our birth into the premortal realm is an item of substance. The spirit body is material, but it is material made up of matter that is finer or purer than anything discernable with the naked eye.

We do not know the actual process whereby our heavenly mother brought forth our spirit body. It is possible that the process could be very similar to the process whereby the physical body is formed, but it is just as possible that the process is entirely different. We simply don't know.

All that we do know is that this spirit body was in some manner given to us by our Heavenly Father through some virtue or action of our heavenly mother.

-a-train

[AnthonyB]

a-train,

Could you give the Standard work quotes that indicate that God was a wife, or that another being other then God the Father was needed to create the premortal beings.

Since Jesus was God before his incarnation, was the Father too? Not to mention that the Holy Spirit has not been incarnated at all and is God. Since we know that 2 out of 3 members of your Godhead were God before being mortalized and if I understand correctly there is no direct evidence in your standard works that God was not God before he was mortal. Clearly embodiement is not a necessity for being devine, are there any other beings who might also skip embodiement and be made devine?

[a-train]

AnthonyB,

There is no direct reference in the standard works to the existance of our heavenly mother.

Yes, exactly, divinity is not invested in the body or achieved in deed, it is lived in the spirit. The Father, like His Son, has always been divine, has always been Diety.

Have others always been divine?

'Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.' (Psalm 82:6)

Although man is fallen, this is not his origin or destiny. Man came from the celestial presence of the Almighty and God's work is to bring him home. Although devils deny it, it is truth, that man is not simply a work of clay in the hand of the LORD, but we are literally the offspring of God (Acts 17:29).

-a-train

[Shell72]

a-train - with all due respect.. the verse Acts17:29 does not state that we are literally the offspring of God..

It states:

"28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

by this I think it means "poetically", or figuratively, we are God's offspring, but the verse immediatly following that states :

"29 Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill"

I take these verses to mean, that we are God's Children, but he is not like us in the flesh and we as his Children, should be well aware of this.

[NeuroTypical]

Could you give the Standard work quotes that indicate that God was a wife, or that another being other then God the Father was needed to create the premortal beings.

The only reason LDS believe in a heavenly mother, is that it makes sense. We're created in God's image. We're literally spirit children. That means we're the same species. Children grow up to look like their parents, and this planet has boys and girls both running around on it. We believe gender is important, and eternal.

Everything else is just speculation - we don't have any clarifying revelation or scripture on the matter.

LM

[the_jason]

a-train - with all due respect.. the verse Acts17:29 does not state that we are literally the offspring of God..

It states:

"28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

by this I think it means "poetically", or figuratively, we are God's offspring, but the verse immediatly following that states :

"29 Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill"

I take these verses to mean, that we are God's Children, but he is not like us in the flesh and we as his Children, should be well aware of this.

So because you "think" it means something then it has to be true. What version of the Bible are you using anyway? Doesn't sound like the KJV.

[MissouriBoiler]

I think it pretty safe to state that Heavenly Father's body and our bodies are different.

We have mortal bodies and and his body is immortal but as we know from the First Vision. We are created in his image. OUr body will be like his after the resurrection as we are promised this by keeping our first estate.

As for the statement about heavenly mother. I think I can dig up some writing by former church officials on the subject. I know I can on Professors and CES directors. Scriptures as stated has nothing on this subject.

But as stated it just kind of fits to me...

We know the purpose of Heavenly Father is for man to achieve Eternal Life and immortaility. We know that Eternal Life is a life similar to his. We know that heaven is not ruled by an ecclesiastical order but a patriarchal-based order. Then you just kind of logically picture a Heavenly Mother there.

[a-train]

And with all due respect also.

If indeed our attention is directed by Paul to the offspring of God, with the intent to discover that the Godhead is not like unto gold, or silver, or stone; should we not also conclude that the Godhead is not like unto an immaterial substance devoid of physical extension?

Are we to deny that the Saviour Jesus Christ is the literal offspring of the Father? In looking to him do we see a being like the idols Moses described 'which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell'?

It is true that Jesus is God, that He is the literal Son of the Most High God, and that He has flesh and bone, to say otherwise is to deny Him and the testimony of the apostles in the New Testament. Now it is true that there is no explicit passage in our Bible to the end that the Father also possesses flesh and bone as does His Son, but that holy collection of books also has nowhere in it any denial of the notion.

To preach such a denial is to preach an unscriptural teaching. An act already standing on an unsure foundation, the foundation of the logic of man which derives its greatest strength from the power of common consensus alone.

We have not a shred of word from any prophet ancient or modern that he has seen or witnessed that God is without a body of flesh and bone, but to the contrary we have many who have and do claim witness to the contrary.

That is the pattern whereby God grants wisdom of His existance, His mind, His purposes, and His will for man. The testimony of the Apostles was not that they had not seen or not felt the physical person of God, but that they had indeed seen and heard and touched the living, seeing, hearing, eating, and speaking God, who is the Son of the Most High God.

It is also the testimony of Joseph Smith that he saw and spoke with the living Father, the Most High God as well as the Son and that They indeed do have bodies of flesh and bone.

There is but one manner whereby men can know the truthfulness or falsehood of such testimonies, and it does not include the consideration of the sophistries of some laid against the sophistries of others, but through personal revelation from God himself. For the LORD gave this pattern: 'Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.'

-a-train

[yellows23]

How did God the father who was mortal,went from mortal man to immortal man???? When God the father was a mortal man,was there anybody else there too??? any other mortal men???Before God the father created the earth-immortal body,where did he live as a mortal man??? another solar system??? or planet??? Non-LDS believe God was always immortal male who is a spirit-god head of the trinity-never a mortal man as us.We as a mortal man or human are imperfect-weakness-sin,Even Paul,Peter,and Moses,others,are not perfect.Peter deny Jesus three times.

[WillowTheWhisp]

As there seems to be some doubt even amongst LDS whether this is indeed Church doctrine or not I decided to look up what Bruce R. McConkie says on the subject in his book 'Mormon Doctrine'

Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection and holiness was associated with him as a Mother. The begetting of children makes a man a father and a woman a mother whether we are dealing with man in his mortal or immortal state.

This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that, "man, as a spirit was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father," that man is the "offspring of celestial parentage" and that "all men and omen are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of deity." (Man: His Origins and Destiny, pp348-355)

This glorious truth of celestial parentage, including specifically both a father and a mother, is heralded forth by song in one of the greatest of Latter-day saint hymns, O My Father by Eliza R. Snow, written in 1843, during the lifetime of the prophet, includes this teaching:

In the heavens are parents single?

No; the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason, truth eternal,

Tells me I've a Mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

In your royal courts on high?

Then at length when I've completed

All you sent me forth to do,

With your mutual Approbation,

Let me come and dwell with you.

Mortal person who overcome all things and gain an ultimate exaltation will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming Eternal Fathers and Eternal Mothers. (D&C 132:19-32) Indeed the formal pronouncement of the Church, issued by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve states: "So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring." (Man: His Origins and Destiny, p 129)

Now that seems perfectly clear to me that it is indeed doctrine.

[Iggy]

[WillowTheWhisp]

But he quoted the First Presidency and I am certainly not going to argue that Joseph F. Smith didn't know what he was talking about. That would definitely leave me on shaky ground.

If an Apostle quotes a Prophet, and gives reference for that quote, then I think I'm pretty safe in accepting it as doctrine.

[rameumptom]

That there is a Heavenly Mother IS doctrine. However, what that exactly means, we do not know. There just has not been anything of substance revealed or explained on the topic, beyond the idea that God the Father has a wife, who is our Heavenly Mother.

Remember that most of the quotes on this topic are from decades ago, prior to the concepts of cloning or invitro-fertilization ever coming into play. For Brigham Young, the only way to fertilize a womb was by sex, and so he envisioned God and Mary having sex in order to bring the mortal Jesus to this world. However, with today's understanding of it all, it is just as easy for us to envision God performing invitro-fertilization on Mary, and achieving the same process, and keeping her a virgin maiden.

On this same thought, do we really know how spirit children are formed? Are they formed in the exact same way we bring about mortal children today? If so, then how long does it take to incubate and bring about billions of spirit children? Does Heavenly Mother have one at a time, or a litter of thousands? Or are spirit children created in another matter, where Father and Mother use their special gifts and skills to form them from lower forms of intelligence, as in a science lab? Until we receive a specific revelation on it, we do not know who she is, or just what her specific tasks and purposes in conjunction with us may be.

[newvid]

Amazing that such an important matter of "doctrine" was completely left out of the body of this doctrine! It is nowhere in God's word and not even in official Mormon 'scriptures". All this speculation proves nothing. "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 cor 3:17 and "God is NOT a man, that he should lie" Num 23:19. GOd is NOT a man, nor an exalted man of anykind. He is Spirit. That is His nature. Jesus BECAME a man, but always retained His godly nature, thus he was the "God-man" at all times. That is opposite of Mormon teaching that states, as man is, god once was, as God is man may BECOME. Jesus, on the contrary BECAME man, but eternally existed as God. There is NO "god mother". However, since men and women are created in His image, I would say God contains within His nature both female and male like characteristics, since we are created in His image. SOme challenges for any willing to look into it: Answering Mormons

[parsnips]

Being created in his image, to me, means that characteristics of God can be found in us. Namely the ability to reason, make decisions, and the capability to love.

[cgrantreed]

How did God the father who was mortal,went from mortal man to immortal man???? When God the father was a mortal man,was there anybody else there too??? any other mortal men???Before God the father created the earth-immortal body,where did he live as a mortal man??? another solar system??? or planet??? Non-LDS believe God was always immortal male who is a spirit-god head of the trinity-never a mortal man as us.We as a mortal man or human are imperfect-weakness-sin,Even Paul,Peter,and Moses,others,are not perfect.Peter deny Jesus three times.

Yellow... A-Train's post...second down... explains that pretty good. The common Christian assumption is that because the Bible does not start in the preexistence that life must have started with a "God" and Adam and Eve, that there was no BEFORE earth. Just that God happened and he dumped people on this spinning mass of stuff that he created. If its so cut and dried then what difference does it make? Then what difference would it make what happens in heaven? You live, you die, you go to heaven. How boring and pointless.

We believe that this process that we live in RIGHT NOW is part of a recurring process, WAY more detailed than simply living and dropping dead and going to heaven. We believe that we too can become Gods of our own worlds by following the process. Its not as simple as living a good life and heading to heaven to be a God. We frankly don't know every detail about it but we do know that God the Father had to do the same process that we have had to do. He was resurrected and made immortal. He became deity through His process in Heaven after his life and through this he is now able to have world(s) of his own stewardship. He is immortal and Deity now. Just as we have now in our world...He had a wife. We have no idea who she is or what her name is but she did/does exist in immortality like her husband.

None the less... He is still God.

[a-train]

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 cor 3:17 and "God is NOT a man, that he should lie" Num 23:19. GOd is NOT a man, nor an exalted man of anykind. He is Spirit. That is His nature. Jesus BECAME a man, but always retained His godly nature, thus he was the "God-man" at all times. That is opposite of Mormon teaching that states, as man is, god once was, as God is man may BECOME. Jesus, on the contrary BECAME man, but eternally existed as God. There is NO "god mother". However, since men and women are created in His image, I would say God contains within His nature both female and male like characteristics, since we are created in His image. SOme challenges for any willing to look into it: Answering Mormons

The fallacy of this argument is in the notion that the LDS position is that God was once not God. The LDS position is emphatic. It is that God the Father has ALWAYS been God. Jesus has ALWAYS been God. This is not the opposite of 'Jesus became a man, but always retained His godly nature.' This is the same doctrine. Mormons believe that Jesus has always been and always will be God. The doctrine is throughout the scriptures both ancient and modern.

-a-train

[parsnips]

A-Train, you need to to read up on your doctrine, because, as far as I can tell, Joseph Smith taught that God wasn't always God. To quote the introduction to his famous King Follet sermon:

..for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

So as we see, the idea that God was always God, is a notion Joseph sought to refute in the sermon.

He goes on in the sermon to state that God was once a man, and he lived on Earth, and Joseph attempted to elucidate his position from biblical sources. So, it is a false statement that the LDS position has always been that God the Father has always been God.

[WillowTheWhisp]

My personal belief here is that we are only given the information which is relevant to us at this particular time. The Bible begins with a beginning which relates to the creation of this earth on which we live. For our own sakes for our own salvation we don't need to know any more. Why baffle us with things beyond our comprehension when we haven't even mastered the things which do matter?

One day we will know for sure what our true relationship with our Heavenly Father is. One day, when it matters. Meanwhile what matters most whilst we are here is whether we follow the teachings of our Saviour and accept his atoning sacrifice on our behalf. We can worry about the finer details of our eternal lineage later. Just because something isn't written in the scriptures doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means it isn't vital to know. The Bible doesn't tell is about all the other galaxies in the vastness of space (there's just a vague reference to stars) but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[rameumptom]

Amazing that such an important matter of "doctrine" was completely left out of the body of this doctrine! It is nowhere in God's word and not even in official Mormon 'scriptures". All this speculation proves nothing. "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 cor 3:17 and "God is NOT a man, that he should lie" Num 23:19. GOd is NOT a man, nor an exalted man of anykind. He is Spirit. That is His nature. Jesus BECAME a man, but always retained His godly nature, thus he was the "God-man" at all times. That is opposite of Mormon teaching that states, as man is, god once was, as God is man may BECOME. Jesus, on the contrary BECAME man, but eternally existed as God. There is NO "god mother". However, since men and women are created in His image, I would say God contains within His nature both female and male like characteristics, since we are created in His image. SOme challenges for any willing to look into it: Answering Mormons

God is NOT a man, is correct. He is a glorified God who used to be a man. Num 23:19 does not say anything about an exalted man, so you are reading into the scripture things that are not there.

God is Spirit. I agree with that. But as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson regarding this: what does that mean? Does it mean a great nebulous nothing that we cannot presume to comprehend? Or does it mean a being that can have other attributes, as well? Remember, Jesus was speaking to the Samaritan woman, and they worshiped many idols, as well as God. He was making a distinction between them for the woman - one is alive, the other is not. No wonder President Adams stated that "some may say I am no Christian", as he saw God in a very different way than others did - yet he was and is still considered a Christian!

The God-man concept is a fun Athanasian creed ideal, but it is nowhere in the Bible. We do agree that he was divine, but fully human. And even after his resurrection he had a body of flesh, like we do. He told his apostles to feel the marks in his hands and see "that a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see I have" (Luke 24). Suddenly, we have a problem with Trinitarian thought - how can God both have a body and not have a body?

It was Jesus himself that said he does nothing except what he has seen the Father do. Could that include becoming mortal and resurrecting into an exalted man, just as Jesus would then do?

Biblical scholars will tell you that the Bible is very anthropomorphic. Taking one or two verses out of an anthropomorphic-God Bible and basing the full nature of God on those two verses is like trying to play a piano concerto with only two keys. Something's going to be left out!

Father and Son are physically separate beings, as shown by the martyrdom of Stephen, where he looked into heaven and saw the Son standing on the right hand of the Father. Either this actually occurred, or the Bible is lying. It is because of his vision of two Gods that Stephen was stoned to death, so I'd say he was taken quite literally by those slaying him.

The early Christian Fathers before the Nicene Creed were in agreement as to the separate beings of the Godhead, though unified in thought and deed. I've listed several articles over the last few days that reference both ECF and modern Biblical scholars that tell us what the people of the Bible really taught and believed.

[newvid]

The fallacy of this argument is in the notion that the LDS position is that God was once not God. The LDS position is emphatic. It is that God the Father has ALWAYS been God. Jesus has ALWAYS been God. This is not the opposite of 'Jesus became a man, but always retained His godly nature.' This is the same doctrine. Mormons believe that Jesus has always been and always will be God. The doctrine is throughout the scriptures both ancient and modern.

-a-train

That is the unfortunate mind game you use to try to fool yourself and others. Yes, apparently, you believe He was A god always, but not THE God, since you do not just have ONE TRUE God in your belief system. God the Father was a god, just as you believe you and I are "gods", part of the happy, ginormous "god family". So God is like a butterfly who goes through all these different Metamorphoses, starting as a spirit child, then entering an embryonic human body, then being born and growing normally as a man, then dying and being resurrected and becoming the exalted god, who is still man, and then the whole process begins again! That is NOT the God of the Bible and reality. Yes, God the Father and God the Son are two separate personalities within the ONE GOD. THe problem is that we try to define "GOD" according to human wisdom and understanding, which is impossible. Somehow the two (three actually) beings are individuals, yet are still one and the SAME, not separate, GOD. NOwhere, NOWHERE in the the True WORD OF GOD is there any indication, when SPEAKING OF God is HE addressed as anything other than ONE, as an individual. When I pray to God the Father, I am praying to the Son and the Holy Spirit as well, as were all the Christians in the Bible, and as were the Old Testament saints, even though the nature of God was a mystery to them at the time. Jesus in the greates, most UNIQUE act in history left His absolute oneness, HIS GLORY, in heaven with the Father to confine and limit Himself to a human body for US and then to retain that body for eternity to identify with His creation, as someone we can always look and relate to, yet his essense and glory are still connected and shared with the Godhead in a way that our finite minds cannot fully grasp. Just accept what the Word teaches!

[WillowTheWhisp]

The Word teaches that Jesus said no man cometh to the Father except through him. The Word teaches that Jesus prayed to his Father and taught us to do the same. He said we should ask the Father for blessings, in the name of the Son. He prayed to his Father asking that if it be possible the cup be taken from his, but then said 'nevertheless not my will but thine.' If he and the Father were one being why would he be praying to himself?

[AnthonyB]

Willow,

Two persons can speak to each other, however it doesn't mean it is impossible that they be one being.

[parsnips]

God is NOT a man, is correct. He is a glorified God who used to be a man.

If you believe the Pearl of Great Price is scripture. The Book of Mormon, nor the Bible, makes this claim.

Num 23:19 does not say anything about an exalted man, so you are reading into the scripture things that are not there.

God is Spirit. I agree with that. But as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson regarding this: what does that mean? Does it mean a great nebulous nothing that we cannot presume to comprehend? Or does it mean a being that can have other attributes, as well? Remember, Jesus was speaking to the Samaritan woman, and they worshiped many idols, as well as God. He was making a distinction between them for the woman - one is alive, the other is not. No wonder President Adams stated that "some may say I am no Christian", as he saw God in a very different way than others did - yet he was and is still considered a Christian!

If you are saying that God, being all powerful, can take on physical manifestations and has the ability to create physical things, then yes I agree God can take on many attributes. But what Christ was saying to the Samaritan woman is absolutely true, the essence of God is Spiritual.

The God-man concept is a fun Athanasian creed ideal, but it is nowhere in the Bible. We do agree that he was divine, but fully human. And even after his resurrection he had a body of flesh, like we do. He told his apostles to feel the marks in his hands and see "that a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see I have" (Luke 24). Suddenly, we have a problem with Trinitarian thought - how can God both have a body and not have a body?

There isn't a problem with Trinitarian thought here. The disciples thought they were seeing a ghost. Jesus proved to them that he was not a ghost, but living flesh. If anything, this confirms trinitarian thought. The truth that Jesus spoke that God is Spirit to the Samaritan woman, and that Spirits do not have flesh and bone. The idea of "God-man" concept is contained in the scriptures. Read the first chapter of John (In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.... And the word became flesh)... Read Isaiah 9:6, where the prophet writes about the names and characteristics about the son that was given. Trinitarian thought is contained throughout the scripture, the encapsulation of it as an idea given with specific terminology isn't.

It was Jesus himself that said he does nothing except what he has seen the Father do. Could that include becoming mortal and resurrecting into an exalted man, just as Jesus would then do?

Or could it be that Jesus was merely showing obedience to the word given concerning him?

Biblical scholars will tell you that the Bible is very anthropomorphic. Taking one or two verses out of an anthropomorphic-God Bible and basing the full nature of God on those two verses is like trying to play a piano concerto with only two keys. Something's going to be left out!

Father and Son are physically separate beings, as shown by the martyrdom of Stephen, where he looked into heaven and saw the Son standing on the right hand of the Father. Either this actually occurred, or the Bible is lying. It is because of his vision of two Gods that Stephen was stoned to death, so I'd say he was taken quite literally by those slaying him.

Stephen was stoned to death because he was a heretic to the Jews, not because he saw "two Gods"... If you really want to examine the scriptures in terms of God, one needs to look no further than Jesus's interaction with the wise Pharisee who recognized the oneness of God. This oneness is in Spirit, and Jesus's prayer about his disciples was that they would be one, like him and his father are one.

The early Christian Fathers before the Nicene Creed were in agreement as to the separate beings of the Godhead, though unified in thought and deed. I've listed several articles over the last few days that reference both ECF and modern Biblical scholars that tell us what the people of the Bible really taught and believed.

All the Nicene Creed did was to encapsulate a concept that is communicated clearly in both the old and new testaments, into a word "Trinity". That Jesus is Immanuel (God With Us), and confirmed John's words that Jesus is God in the Flesh. The Nicene Creed was in response to heretical teachings of plural Gods, similar to Mormon theology today, and it gave common language to a concept that is described over and over in scripture.