God has a wife in heaven???

[AnthonyB]

I largely agree with you but still I can think of non-plural marriages which were recorded as having no major problems, I still can't think of any plural marriages where the same could be said.

I'm curious though, if plurality is the ideal, why didn't God start with it? Or was Lilith truly Adam's first wife?

[WillowTheWhisp]

It wasn't the fact that Solomon had many wives that was his downfall. It was the fact that he chose foreign women who worshipped false gods and they led him astray.

I don't believe we know enough about Lilith to have an opinion on that Anthony. I know she has been referred to as Adam's first wife but she isn't there in Genesis.

[rameumptom]

Plural marriage is not necessarily the ideal, except when commanded by God for whatever reason He may have. Monogamy has long been the standard we use, except when commanded otherwise. Even in the days of plural marriage, a man had to receive permission by the Brethren before entering into a new relationship. It wasn't an automatic thing, where one woke up and said, "I think I'll marry the first woman I bump into today." This is very different than the polygamy now practiced by many Arabs, for instance, where there is no guiding hand over the man's choice.

Still, monogamy is the standard.

[AnthonyB]

rameumptom,

I'm glad you agreed that monogamy is the ideal but that God has never explicitly forbidden plural marriage in the bible.

Anyway I take it you cant think of any plural marriages in the bible that didn't have real problems?

Willow,

Lilith and Eve were according to the jewish folk legends that I've heard was never simultaneously married to Adam. It does make "Frazer" funnier when you make the connection that his wife is named Lilith and the connection to the first Lilith.

[rameumptom]

Well, given that the Bible only gives us a few examples, and we have hundreds of examples among Mormons, it's hard to say if any were successful. Abraham was married to several other wives after Sarah died, and we don't know if those turned out well or not, but they did bear him children.

Jacob seemed to deal decently with his 4 wives, though Leah was jealous. Then again, that was due to Laban's cheating to marry off his daughters, and not because Jacob wasn't a good husband. Leah felt she was always going to have to prove herself, because Jacob was tricked into marrying her, but I think a lot of it was in her head.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Where is the basis for the folk legend of Lilith?

[VisionOfLehi]

While it's not published with the Standard Works, there is a piece of modern scripture that mentions, to some extent, a heavenly mother.

This being:

The Family: A Proclamation to the World

The second paragraph:

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. (Emphasis added)

It does not name a heavenly mother, but it makes it clear that it's not just Heavenly Father who is our immortal parent.

Here's a link to the whole Proclamation: The Family: A Proclamation to the World

Edit: Woah, totally didn't see that there's 6 pages. Hope this isn't a repeat.

[WillowTheWhisp]

That's an excellent point. :) I'm so used to the idea of Heavenly Parents (in the plural) that this hadn't even struck me and yet5 I've read it and referred to it countless times.

[AnthonyB]

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. (Emphasis added) "

Does that quote actually necessitate a heavenly mother. In LDS terms (I hope I've gotten this right) Elohim was the Father of your pre-mortal spirits, however your mortal bodies are a result of the work of Jehovah. Since you beleive that the members of the Godhead are seperates beings than the plural word parents might well fit, to the spearate invovlement they both have had in us.

[VisionOfLehi]

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. (Emphasis added) "

Does that quote actually necessitate a heavenly mother. In LDS terms (I hope I've gotten this right) Elohim was the Father of your pre-mortal spirits, however your mortal bodies are a result of the work of Jehovah. Since you beleive that the members of the Godhead are seperates beings than the plural word parents might well fit, to the spearate invovlement they both have had in us.

This argument WOULD be valid, but it says "SPIRIT son or daughter of heavenly parents". The SPIRIT part is vital there. It means we have 2 spiritual parents.

What you posed says we have 2 parents, but one is a spirit parent and the other is our "physical" parent.

[AnthonyB]

VisionofLehi,

As I understand it LDS have no definiative revelation on how spirit children came into existence, you have opinion but no official doctrinal stance. Since you don't know the process then you can't rule that each of the members of Godhead may have been considered by themselves as the parents of the spirit children even though one may have been the creator of all. that in the end is all the document in question may be saying, that each of us had Elohim as creator, but Jehovah had a parental role at the spirit child stage as well, given the future roll he would play.

That statement may make the idea of a heavenly mother likely but it does not make it a certainty, not whilst a contrary opinion is persmissible within your official doctrinal statements.

[VisionOfLehi]

We believe Christ was a Spirit Child, too, created as we were. We're ALL Spirit Children of heavenly parents, as that says...

And there's numerous talks which mention it as well.

President Spencer W. Kimball, speaking to Latter-day Saint girls in Mexico City, said: “You are daughters of God. … You are made in the image of our heavenly mother. … Your body is sacred to you and precious” (in Conference Report, Mexico City and Central America Area Conference 1973, 108).

There are forces that work beyond our sight. Sometimes we think the whole job is up to us, forgetful that there are loved ones beyond our sight who are thinking about us and our children. We forget that we have a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother who are even more concerned, probably, than our earthly father and mother, and that influences from beyond are constantly working to try to help us when we do all we can. ( “A Sure Trumpet Sound: Quotations from President Lee,” Ensign, Feb 1974, 77)

Although, I'm the kind of Latter-day saint that believe Prophets actually speak for Christ and know what they're talking about.

The first quote is in the The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A.

There's a Primary lesson which states

We also lived with our heavenly mother and all the rest of Heavenly Father’s children. (Primary 2: Choose the Right A, Lesson 3: I Am a Child of God)

It's not part of the standard works, no, but I believe it's part of modern revelation, given to us by our modern Prophets. I do NOT believe they would leave something as in the Proclamation as that so ambiguous to be open to wide interpretation. That's counter to what the point of it was!

From my understanding, a heavenly mother is not emphasized in teachings, even though it IS taught, because Heavenly Father is the one we worship, He's the big guy.

For anyone wanting to know my stance on modern Prophets, please read Teachings of the Living Prophets . It's an Institute Manual.

[VoluntaryPrison]

Regarding the earlier discussion of polygamy in the scriptures, we do have enough examples of it to determine three necessary conditions for Divinely sanctioned polygamy (call it plural marriage if you like, it's the same thing)

1. It was administered by a prophet

2. It remained within the covenant

3. (Actually, this one escapes me at the moment. Remind me to look this

up when I get home).

So we'll stick with the first two for now anyway. My apologies (how embarrasing).

You'll also notice if you look at the people who had multiple lives, through history, have been wise men in good standing with the Lord, and typically, very well off, either with lots of land, a good farm, or in David and Solomon's case, just plain rich. Comments on this observation?

[rameumptom]

VisionofLehi,

As I understand it LDS have no definiative revelation on how spirit children came into existence, you have opinion but no official doctrinal stance. Since you don't know the process then you can't rule that each of the members of Godhead may have been considered by themselves as the parents of the spirit children even though one may have been the creator of all. that in the end is all the document in question may be saying, that each of us had Elohim as creator, but Jehovah had a parental role at the spirit child stage as well, given the future roll he would play.

That statement may make the idea of a heavenly mother likely but it does not make it a certainty, not whilst a contrary opinion is persmissible within your official doctrinal statements.

While we do not have a specific process, we are taught this in the Gospel Principles manual, chapter two:

God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are … literally the sons and daughters of Deity. … Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80).

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are.

Here, we see that Jesus is also known as the "first spirit born to our heavenly parents", which means he could not have been the direct creator/parent of our spirits.

The scriptures state that we must be "spiritually born of Christ", but that means we must be converted, and not that he engendered us as spirit children. Scriptures are often full of teachings that can be understood on more than one level. Here, we are engendered spiritually by Heavenly Parents. Then, we are figuratively born spiritually of Christ, reminiscent of that initial birth.

[Heavenguard]

I have some questions that arose from the (long, haha) reading of this thread. I wouldn't call them challenges so much as curiosity over what Mormonism teaches regarding these:

If God (Yahweh, for clarity) was once (or is?) a spirit child, who then became a man who later became an exalted God, then that means that Yahweh was also created (begotten?) by another God before him. If this is so, why ought we worship Yahweh, but not his father who came before him? Why (in the old testament) does Yahweh insist that he is the one and only living God - would that not be a lie if he has a spiritual father before him who is also a God? If Yahweh were a man before, created by his spiritual father, would Yahweh not have worshipped him also?

If God is male, and like us (humanity and most animals, even plants need to be pollinated!) in that males cannot 1) singly produce offspring and 2) carry and bear children at all, but rather begets them through his wife, does that not limit God's ability, power and sovereignty over creation? Also, Genesis teaches that God created man from the dust of the Earth and breathed his spirit into them. Eve was then created using Adam's rib. Now, I don't take that literally, but I do take it to mean that he created us by his own power, and not through another's. What is the Mormon view on that aspect of the creation story?

[VisionOfLehi]

The name we use is Elohim.

The concept of a council of gods is not a new one, and is actually more in line with ancient Jewish understanding. But there is only one supreme God amongst all the exalted beings. He is the Highest, the Greatest, and the One whom we worship.

The whole going back to "Who made Him?" kind of thing doesn't make a difference. Elohim is Supreme. I don't personally give a hoot if he's been around always, or if he were truly once a mortal man. He's my Deity, that's all I care about.

----

God can do anything that's doable. If it's not doable for a male entity to singly produce offspring, then it can't be done.

For my simple study of the creation account in Genesis... When the LORD (Jehovah) created the world, he fashioned it from pre-existing material. This is consistent, again, with ancient Judaic belief, and translations from the original Hebrew. I think the fact that He made Adam from the dust solidifies this. He did not simply "pop" Adam into existence, but fashioned him from what was there.

By fashioning Eve from his rib, whether symbolic or not, signifies that women, too, are made of the same stuff we are, and we also fashioned from what was already there.

[a-train]

I have some questions that arose from the (long, haha) reading of this thread. I wouldn't call them challenges so much as curiosity over what Mormonism teaches regarding these:

If God (Yahweh, for clarity) was once (or is?) a spirit child, who then became a man who later became an exalted God, then that means that Yahweh was also created (begotten?) by another God before him. If this is so, why ought we worship Yahweh, but not his father who came before him? Why (in the old testament) does Yahweh insist that he is the one and only living God - would that not be a lie if he has a spiritual father before him who is also a God? If Yahweh were a man before, created by his spiritual father, would Yahweh not have worshipped him also?

The LDS notion is that Yahweh, was not created. He is an eternal Spirit who ALWAYS has been and ALWAYS will be God Eternally. His spirit body WAS created just as was His physical body when He was born to the Virgin Mary. Understand, that although Mary is the mother of Yahweh's physical body, this does not harm His Godship.

Yahweh was Begotten by His Father. He is the Only Begotten of the Father. He indeed was born and lived through every aspect of the human condition. He is a man. He died and rose from the grave and now sits enthroned and exalted in the Heavens. The species of man and the species of God are the same. We are the offspring of God.

Yahweh did worship and pray to His Father while living on this earth. He further taught that all men must do so. Yahweh, is Jesus of Nazareth.

If God is male, and like us (humanity and most animals, even plants need to be pollinated!) in that males cannot 1) singly produce offspring and 2) carry and bear children at all, but rather begets them through his wife, does that not limit God's ability, power and sovereignty over creation? Also, Genesis teaches that God created man from the dust of the Earth and breathed his spirit into them. Eve was then created using Adam's rib. Now, I don't take that literally, but I do take it to mean that he created us by his own power, and not through another's. What is the Mormon view on that aspect of the creation story?

It has long been supposed by philosophers and theologians that in order for God to be Almighty, He must have no needs. Ex Nihilists suppose that God must have created everything from nothing or else He would not be all powerful.

Even if it is true that God has created everything the way He desires from nothing, then this would give Him total power to create for Himself a wife if He so desires and to have children with her. If we say He cannot do this, then we are guilty of the same failure to attribute all power to Him that the Ex Nihilists are trying to avoid anyway.

If indeed God has created billions of physical bodies for mankind through the power of pro-creation, then why must we suddenly assume this to be a sign of weakness? Did God carry and bare your physical body? Mine? Because He did not, is He somehow less powerful or less worthy of our worship and adoration? If we were to say that God cannot give bodies to human beings in this manner, wouldn't that be the real denial of His power?

Because I have a mom and dad on this earth, does this limit God's sovereignty over creation?

There is another thread on the creation, regardless of the logistics and details and debate upon those things, Yahweh created the Heavens and the Earth and all things that are in them including mankind. No detail contradicts this truth.

I hope that helps.

God Bless.

-a-train

[VisionOfLehi]

a-train, I believe by Yahweh he was referring to Elohim, and the idea that He was once a mortal man before he became Heavenly Father.

[Heavenguard]

Yes, I was referring to God the Father, not Jesus.

And I'm cool with calling him Elohim, I just didn't know what name to use. I'd started with just calling God "God", but then "God" was recurring so many times in that post that I was even confusing myself, haha.

But now that that's brought up, do you mean 'Elohim' as the name of God the Father, or the entire Godhead (Of Father, Son and Spirit/Ghost)? I ask because Elohim is a plural, and from reading things previous in this thread, it seems that LDS teaching differentiates the Father, Son and Spirit as three persons working in one unity (but three beings, nonetheless).

(Hm, should that be in another thread, since that's not a discussion about the father and his wife?)

Edit: And I don't think I understand LDS teaching about spirit children in general enough to really be able to respond to a-train just yet. (So I'll just wait till another time.)

[a-train]

Yes, I was referring to God the Father, not Jesus.

And I'm cool with calling him Elohim, I just didn't know what name to use. I'd started with just calling God "God", but then "God" was recurring so many times in that post that I was even confusing myself, haha.

But now that that's brought up, do you mean 'Elohim' as the name of God the Father, or the entire Godhead (Of Father, Son and Spirit/Ghost)? I ask because Elohim is a plural, and from reading things previous in this thread, it seems that LDS teaching differentiates the Father, Son and Spirit as three persons working in one unity (but three beings, nonetheless).

(Hm, should that be in another thread, since that's not a discussion about the father and his wife?)

Edit: And I don't think I understand LDS teaching about spirit children in general enough to really be able to respond to a-train just yet. (So I'll just wait till another time.)

Mormon leaders understand fully the tetragrammaton, its use, Eloheim, and the other terms used to designate the Godhead or any Member thereof. It is therefore understood that these terms are not uniform in their use.

A tradition in LDS teaching has been, since the time of Joseph Smith, to refer to the Father as 'Eloheim' and the Son as 'Jehovah'. But this is only to avoid confusion, it is indeed understood that these terms have not always been used in that manner.

In fact, Joseph Smith was fond of pointing out the fact that Eloheim is a plural term. Take a look at the creation account in Abraham 4.

In the KJV, 'Eloheim' was translated and printed 'GOD' (in all caps). LDS persons are aware that in many of these cases the term applies to the Godhead, not a specific Member therein. LDS are comfortable with the term 'GODS'. If the scriptures give a plural term, we are not worried about singularizing it in order to facilitate such a rigid view of monotheism as do many others.

I understand that you may be asking questions about the Father ('Eloheim') expressly, but it is necessary before such can be addressed that you first understand the situation of Jesus of Nazareth. It is through Him that we understand the Father. What He is, does, and says, is the same as the Father.

-a-train

[rameumptom]

LDS teaching is very limited on what we know about God the Father (Elohim) and his "history." We only have two discourses from Joseph Smith on Him, the King Follet Disourse, and the Sermon in the Grove. It is easy to speculate beyond what Joseph Smith taught, and so there's often a difference between the actual doctrine we have, what has been revealed, and what goes beyond the actual teaching.

God the Father, if we understand these two discourses correctly, was also a spirit man, like us at one time. What all that entails, we don't know, as we have little doctrine on our own premortal existence. We know that God formed our spirits from intelligence (of which there's a lot of opinions on what 'intelligence' means). Our spirits "grew up" in intellect and other ways, we cannot quite be sure of. At a certain point, God determined we were generally ready to receive physical bodies to continue our experiences and progression toward divinity.

Abraham 3 tells us that some spirit children had already achieved divine or "great and noble" status, and were sent here for specific purposes. Abraham was one of the great and noble ones. Of the great and noble divine ones, Jesus was preeminent, and chosen to be our Savior and Redeemer.

Why do we not worship Heavenly Father's father? Because we have been given commandment on the hierarchy and structure of our worship.

One thing that Blake Ostler in Exploring Mormon Thought vol I explains, that a key to God is his relationships. We are taught to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and through the medium of the Holy Spirit. These three are the divine Godhead, whose relationship is so all-encompassing that it enriches one another. God wishes that we enjoin him in such a relationship: "The key to the Mormon view is that when persons freely choose to enter into the "light" given to them by God as a divine gift, they participate in God's own power, knowledge and divine glory" (pg 81).

The understanding is that God the Father also enjoys a relationship of being in such a relationship not only with His children, but also the Gods above him, including His father. In such a way, when one worships one member of the Godhead, one worships all those worthy of worship.

[Hemidakota]

How did God the father who was mortal,went from mortal man to immortal man???? When God the father was a mortal man,was there anybody else there too??? any other mortal men???Before God the father created the earth-immortal body,where did he live as a mortal man??? another solar system??? or planet??? Non-LDS believe God was always immortal male who is a spirit-god head of the trinity-never a mortal man as us.We as a mortal man or human are imperfect-weakness-sin,Even Paul,Peter,and Moses,others,are not perfect.Peter deny Jesus three times.

Good questions

[Hemidakota]

LDS teaching is very limited on what we know about God the Father (Elohim) and his "history." We only have two discourses from Joseph Smith on Him, the King Follet Disourse, and the Sermon in the Grove. It is easy to speculate beyond what Joseph Smith taught, and so there's often a difference between the actual doctrine we have, what has been revealed, and what goes beyond the actual teaching.

God the Father, if we understand these two discourses correctly, was also a spirit man, like us at one time. What all that entails, we don't know, as we have little doctrine on our own premortal existence. We know that God formed our spirits from intelligence (of which there's a lot of opinions on what 'intelligence' means). Our spirits "grew up" in intellect and other ways, we cannot quite be sure of. At a certain point, God determined we were generally ready to receive physical bodies to continue our experiences and progression toward divinity.

Abraham 3 tells us that some spirit children had already achieved divine or "great and noble" status, and were sent here for specific purposes. Abraham was one of the great and noble ones. Of the great and noble divine ones, Jesus was preeminent, and chosen to be our Savior and Redeemer.

Why do we not worship Heavenly Father's father? Because we have been given commandment on the hierarchy and structure of our worship.

One thing that Blake Ostler in Exploring Mormon Thought vol I explains, that a key to God is his relationships. We are taught to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and through the medium of the Holy Spirit. These three are the divine Godhead, whose relationship is so all-encompassing that it enriches one another. God wishes that we enjoin him in such a relationship: "The key to the Mormon view is that when persons freely choose to enter into the "light" given to them by God as a divine gift, they participate in God's own power, knowledge and divine glory" (pg 81).

The understanding is that God the Father also enjoys a relationship of being in such a relationship not only with His children, but also the Gods above him, including His father. In such a way, when one worships one member of the Godhead, one worships all those worthy of worship.

Did the Savior explained to the Jews, He was doing the same work [savior role] as the Father has already done before [on another earth]?

[rameumptom]

Hemidakota,

The Savior said he was doing the work he had seen the Father does.

What does that mean? Did he see the Father on another earth being a Savior? Did he see the Father as a regular mortal on another earth being faithful in receiving godhood? Did he see the Father actively busy in heaven preparing mankind for salvation?

While I keep an open mind, there are many LDS scholars that view the KFD as meaning that Jesus-God came down to an earth, and not necessarily God the Father. Yes, it is the minority view, but even President Hinckley when asked on television said he did not know what it means that God was once a mortal. Clearly there are fewer answers than there are questions that KFD brought up.

Yellows23,

Yes, we are imperfect, but are made perfect in Christ. Peter states that we can be partakers in the divine nature.

While other Christians see a huge gap between mortals and God, LDS see that we are gods in embryo. As the acorn does not appear like a tree, the potential is there for it to become a mighty oak. Jesus used the metaphor of a mustard seed being very small, but can grow to be a large tree that birds nest in. At the same time, he gave the parable of the sower, suggesting that not all seeds meet their proper end, but many fail to achieve and bring forth fruit.

Having now mixed not only metaphors, but parables also, let me say that for LDS all of this is an open book. Terryl Givens, LDS scholar, explained that most religions are built on creeds that delimit their search for God. LDS believe in an open canon, where new revelations and inspiration can lead us to interesting concepts of God - some of which are canonized, while others remain conceptual and even speculative. But we aren't boxed in by something St Augustine or the Nice Council wrote centuries ago.

They rejected concepts taught by many early Christians, and even concepts that are taught in the scriptures (Godhead being separate beings, divine council of Gods, etc.). Their creeds prohibit them from reviewing the ancient data and considering the different teachings that were available, in hopes of perhaps knowing God better.

Meanwhile, we see LDS considering the Trinity, for example. Rather than rejecting it outright, many LDS try to see the truths within it and how it connects with LDS teachings. Personally, I have no problem with describing the Godhead as a form of social trinity, for example. But this becomes a major difference between being boxed in by creeds, and being open to all knowledge available and considering all of the teachings ancient and modern.

Article of Faith 13 explains a key LDS belief on this:

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[Hemidakota]

KFD? That abbreviation escapes me.

It is a self-interest on what transpired with FATHER and his mortality. As with the term or title Jesus Christ.