Calvinism versus Mormonism: Which is more Biblical?

[DrewM]

T-U-L-I-P

Total Depravity (Original Sin)

Sin inherited from parents: Deut. 1:34-39; Ezek. 18:19-20; Isa 7:15-16; Jer 19:2-6; Matt. 18:1-3; 19:13-14

Non-saved incapable choosing or doing good: Deut.11:26-28; 30:15-20; Josh. 24:15; Acts 10:1-4, 22 (cf 11:14); Rom. 2:14-16

Unconditional Election (Predestination of Individuals)

Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 1:17; Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9

Limited Atonement (Jesus died only for the elect)

Luke 19:10; John 1:29; 3:16; Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:1-2

Irresistible Grace (No choice in one's salvation)

Matt. 11:28; Acts 6:10; 7:51-55; Revelation 22:17; John 12:32 (cf. John 6:44 & 2 Nephi. 26:24-28, 33)

Perseverance of the Saints (Once saved always saved)

Ezek 3:20; 18:24-26; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 8:13; 9:62; 12:41-48; John 15:1-7; 1 Cor. 8:11; Gal. 5:1-4, 13; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Ti 1:18-20; 4:1; 5:8; Heb. 3:12; 4:1-2,11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 10:38-39; James 5:19-20; 1 Pet. 5:8-10; 2 Pet. 2:1,15,20-22; 3:17; Rev 2:4-5; 3:5,16-17

I invite you to take a look at these scriptures if you're interested in the topic. It shouldn't take more than about 45 minutes.

[prisonchaplain]

I find the Assemblies of God's Statement of Fundamental Truths to be the most biblical. But...that's just me. :-)

[VisionOfLehi]

I find the Assemblies of God's Statement of Fundamental Truths to be the most biblical. But...that's just me. :-)

Is senility a factor?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Those scriptures seem to support Mormon teachings as far as I can see.

What does TULIP mean?

[Dr T]

TULIP is the acronym for what Drew put in bold, Total depravity, Unconditional..., Limited..., etc.

[Moksha]

Is senility a factor?

PrisonChaplain should give you a brisk cane wave for that!

[NateHowe]

I sound like a broken record on these forums, but this is the simple truth: We as a Church are not BASED on the Bible. We are based on the process by which the Bible and all other scripture is given: revelation from God.

We can interpret the scriptures to say many things, and many of the doctrines mentioned by the OP are fairly reasonable interpretations of those verses without the beneficial light of the Restoration. However, the simple fact remains that we must do something in this life to obtain salvation, or God's commandments would be a null point, and He would be a liar for perpetuating them through centuries of prophets.

Revelation is the key. There is no other way to know what is true.

[prisonchaplain]

Is senility a factor?

The correct word is "ordination"--though some find the nuance very slim indeed.

[Snow]

T-U-L-I-P

Total Depravity (Original Sin)

Sin inherited from parents: Deut. 1:34-39; Ezek. 18:19-20; Isa 7:15-16; Jer 19:2-6; Matt. 18:1-3; 19:13-14

Non-saved incapable choosing or doing good: Deut.11:26-28; 30:15-20; Josh. 24:15; Acts 10:1-4, 22 (cf 11:14); Rom. 2:14-16

Unconditional Election (Predestination of Individuals)

Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 1:17; Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9

Limited Atonement (Jesus died only for the elect)

Luke 19:10; John 1:29; 3:16; Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:1-2

Irresistible Grace (No choice in one's salvation)

Matt. 11:28; Acts 6:10; 7:51-55; Revelation 22:17; John 12:32 (cf. John 6:44 & 2 Nephi. 26:24-28, 33)

Perseverance of the Saints (Once saved always saved)

Ezek 3:20; 18:24-26; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 8:13; 9:62; 12:41-48; John 15:1-7; 1 Cor. 8:11; Gal. 5:1-4, 13; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Ti 1:18-20; 4:1; 5:8; Heb. 3:12; 4:1-2,11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 10:38-39; James 5:19-20; 1 Pet. 5:8-10; 2 Pet. 2:1,15,20-22; 3:17; Rev 2:4-5; 3:5,16-17

I invite you to take a look at these scriptures if you're interested in the topic. It shouldn't take more than about 45 minutes.

It's hard to imagine a more unjust or more capricious deity.

[prisonchaplain]

It's hard to imagine a more unjust or more capricious deity.

I suppose the T.U.L.I.P. response would be, "How dare you?"

They start with the assumption that God is good, just and all-powerful. Therefore, anything he does, by definition, is good and just. I don't agree with it, but it is the one system of teaching that says, "Let God be God."

IMHO, Calvinism, Armenianism, or LDS free agency are all secondary to the very basic question of whether or not we believe God is big enough, and whether or not he is omni-beneficent (all good).

[WillowTheWhisp]

They start with the assumption that God is good, just and all-powerful. Therefore, anything he does, by definition, is good and just. I don't agree with it, but it is the one system of teaching that says, "Let God be God."

I don't know anything about Calvinism and have never even heard of Armenianism but I do believe that we have a loving God who is both just and merciful. Because he is just he requires recompense for sin. Because he is merciful he provides a way whereby that price can be paid on our behalf thus enabling us to return to him and be counted blameless.

How great the wisdom and the love ................... where justice, love and mercy meet in harmony divine.

[DrewM]

T-U-L-I-P

Total Depravity (Original Sin)

Sin inherited from parents: Deut. 1:34-39; Ezek. 18:19-20; Isa 7:15-16; Jer 19:2-6; Matt. 18:1-3; 19:13-14

Non-saved incapable choosing or doing good: Deut.11:26-28; 30:15-20; Josh. 24:15; Acts 10:1-4, 22 (cf 11:14); Rom. 2:14-16

Unconditional Election (Predestination of Individuals)

Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 1:17; Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9

Limited Atonement (Jesus died only for the elect)

Luke 19:10; John 1:29; 3:16; Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:1-2

Irresistible Grace (No choice in one's salvation)

Matt. 11:28; Acts 6:10; 7:51-55; Revelation 22:17; John 12:32 (cf. John 6:44 & 2 Nephi. 26:24-28, 33)

Perseverance of the Saints (Once saved always saved)

Ezek 3:20; 18:24-26; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 8:13; 9:62; 12:41-48; John 15:1-7; 1 Cor. 8:11; Gal. 5:1-4, 13; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Ti 1:18-20; 4:1; 5:8; Heb. 3:12; 4:1-2,11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 10:38-39; James 5:19-20; 1 Pet. 5:8-10; 2 Pet. 2:1,15,20-22; 3:17; Rev 2:4-5; 3:5,16-17

I invite you to take a look at these scriptures if you're interested in the topic. It shouldn't take more than about 45 minutes.

I don't guess I made it clear enough. I think these scripture support the LDS view and NOT the Calvinistic view.

[rameumptom]

Limited Atonement goes against many Biblical scriptures, IMO. Included is the well known and used John 3:16 - "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."

I love the LDS teachings of near universal atonement, with levels of heaven provided by a loving God, and an opportunity for all his children to hear his word, either here or in the Spirit World. TULIP ignores the possibility of multiple levels of heaven, preaching of the word to the spirits in prison, etc.

LDS teachings also ensure free will/agency. This means that we are not forced into hell. Predestination and Irresistible Grace mean that a person is forced into hell or heaven. If that's the case, then God could have saved everyone, making heaven irresistible to everyone. Instead, he chooses just a few and condemns the majority - not a very loving or forgiving God. I'd rather be an atheist than choose to worship and adore such a God, as He is incapable of matching my level of love and forgiveness. I can choose to love and forgive strangers and those who do evil to me, but he condemns those who have never known him.

[Snow]

I suppose the T.U.L.I.P. response would be, "How dare you?"

They start with the assumption that God is good, just and all-powerful. Therefore, anything he does, by definition, is good and just. I don't agree with it, but it is the one system of teaching that says, "Let God be God."

IMHO, Calvinism, Armenianism, or LDS free agency are all secondary to the very basic question of whether or not we believe God is big enough, and whether or not he is omni-beneficent (all good).

Sure - but in order for that to be rational, we have to define "good" in a very different way that we actually understand it - or make an appeal to mystery - which doesn't help at all.

[prisonchaplain]

Snow, what I'm suggesting is that we start with the question of God's nature and character. Most here are with me on the notion that if God is not powerful enough, why bother serving him? If he's not good, I'd oppose him. But, is He powerful and good? And, perhaps I go about getting my answer much the way LDS encourage us to find the truth about the BoM--through prayer, through spiritual seeking...and of course, through a rational and philosophical examination of what I know.

Once I'm assured of God's power and goodness, then I search his claims for me and on me. If I find that the Bible is his words to me, and they teach me T.U.L.I.P., does that necessarily counter what I've already determined about God?

IMHO, Joseph Smith thought so. Even assuming that everything he said was true, I am also convinced that he had already determined that Calvinism was not an acceptable understanding of God. If he received revelations from God, then his own opinions matter not. For those of us uncertain, understanding his predisposition against Calvinism (I admit that I am surmizing his opinion--I've not done the study to know for sure), could be informative.

In any case, I am not an advocate of T.U.L.I.P., nor of Calvinism in general--so my will to play "Devil's advocate," only carries so far. :-)

[Dr T]

Tulip reminds me of a flower. Armenianism also has a flower. Theirs is-“He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me, He loves me not...”

[prisonchaplain]

Dr. T., I'm not sure I understand. Armenianism, with its unlimited atonement, says, "Whoseover will may come." Why would that remind you of the flower of puppy love?

[Elgama]

I am afraid despite Calvinism being the origins of the Presbyterian Church I favoured as a child this is what I think of when I think of Calvinism

Robert Burns Country: Holy Willie's Prayer: "And send the godly in a pet to pray." - Pope.

Holy Willie's Prayer

"And send the godly in a pet to pray." - Pope.

1785

Type: Poem

Argument.

Holy Willie was a rather oldish bachelor elder, in the parish of

Mauchline, and much and justly famed for that polemical chattering, which ends

in tippling orthodoxy, and for that spiritualized bawdry which refines to

liquorish devotion. In a sessional process with a gentleman in Mauchline-a

Mr.Gavin Hamilton-Holy Willie and his priest, Father Auld, after full hearing

in the presbytery of Ayr, came off but second best; owing partly to the

oratorical powers of Mr. Robert Aiken, Mr. Hamilton's counsel; but chiefly to

Mr. Hamilton's being one of the most irreproachable and truly respectable

characters in the county. On losing the process, the muse overheard him

[Holy Willie] at his devotions, as follows:-

O Thou, who in the heavens does dwell,

Who, as it pleases best Thysel',

Sends ane to heaven an' ten to hell,

A' for Thy glory,

And no for ony gude or ill

They've done afore Thee!

I bless and praise Thy matchless might,

When thousands Thou hast left in night,

That I am here afore Thy sight,

For gifts an' grace

A burning and a shining light

To a' this place.

What was I, or my generation,

That I should get sic exaltation,

I wha deserve most just damnation

For broken laws,

Five thousand years ere my creation,

Thro' Adam's cause?

When frae my mither's womb I fell,

Thou might hae plunged me in hell,

To gnash my gums, to weep and wail,

In burnin lakes,

Where damned devils roar and yell,

Chain'd to their stakes.

Yet I am here a chosen sample,

To show thy grace is great and ample;

I'm here a pillar o' Thy temple,

Strong as a rock,

A guide, a buckler, and example,

To a' Thy flock.

O Lord, Thou kens what zeal I bear,

When drinkers drink, an' swearers swear,

An' singin there, an' dancin here,

Wi' great and sma';

For I am keepit by Thy fear

Free frae them a'.

But yet, O Lord! confess I must,

At times I'm fash'd wi' fleshly lust:

An' sometimes, too, in wardly trust,

Vile self gets in:

But Thou remembers we are dust,

Defil'd wi' sin.

O Lord! yestreen, Thou kens, wi' Meg-

Thy pardon I sincerely beg,

O! may't ne'er be a livin plague

To my dishonour,

An' I'll ne'er lift a lawless leg

Again upon her.

Besides, I farther maun allow,

Wi' Leezie's lass, three times I trow-

But Lord, that Friday I was fou,

When I cam near her;

Or else, Thou kens, Thy servant true

Wad never steer her.

Maybe Thou lets this fleshly thorn

Buffet Thy servant e'en and morn,

Lest he owre proud and high shou'd turn,

That he's sae gifted:

If sae, Thy han' maun e'en be borne,

Until Thou lift it.

Lord, bless Thy chosen in this place,

For here Thou hast a chosen race:

But God confound their stubborn face,

An' blast their name,

Wha bring Thy elders to disgrace

An' public shame.

Lord, mind Gaw'n Hamilton's deserts;

He drinks, an' swears, an' plays at cartes,

Yet has sae mony takin arts,

Wi' great and sma',

Frae God's ain priest the people's hearts

He steals awa.

An' when we chasten'd him therefor,

Thou kens how he bred sic a splore,

An' set the warld in a roar

O' laughing at us;-

Curse Thou his basket and his store,

Kail an' potatoes.

Lord, hear my earnest cry and pray'r,

Against that Presbyt'ry o' Ayr;

Thy strong right hand, Lord, make it bare

Upo' their heads;

Lord visit them, an' dinna spare,

For their misdeeds.

O Lord, my God! that glib-tongu'd Aiken,

My vera heart and flesh are quakin,

To think how we stood sweatin', shakin,

An' p-'d wi' dread,

While he, wi' hingin lip an' snakin,

Held up his head.

Lord, in Thy day o' vengeance try him,

Lord, visit them wha did employ him,

And pass not in Thy mercy by 'em,

Nor hear their pray'r,

But for Thy people's sake, destroy 'em,

An' dinna spare.

But, Lord, remember me an' mine

Wi' mercies temp'ral an' divine,

That I for grace an' gear may shine,

Excell'd by nane,

And a' the glory shall be thine,

Amen, Amen!