Garden of Eden

[StudMuff]

In a comment posted on You-tube someone said that the Bible says that the Garden of Eden was between the Tigris and Euphrates. Is this true?

[Doctor Steuss]

Genesis 2:10-14 is the main relevant text (or Moses 3:10-14 for a strictly LDS counterpart). It essentially gives four rivers: Pison (or "Pishon"), Gihon, Hiddekel (or "Tigris"), and Euphrates.

The text also names the lands of "Havilah," "Ethiopia," and "Assyria."

From an LDS perspective, one can hypothesize that Noah and company named geographical landmarks in the “Old World” after landmarks that they knew in the “New World.” Or perhaps Joseph told the saints that the Garden of Eden was in Independence, Missouri in order to help bring them comfort during a difficult time (as I don’t know of anyone who has spotted any flaming swords in the area… yet).

[Moksha]

Or perhaps Joseph told the saints that the Garden of Eden was in Independence, Missouri in order to help bring them comfort during a difficult time (as I don’t know of anyone who has spotted any flaming swords in the area… yet).

So perhaps this was a soothing allegory that got misinterpreted as being literal like in Jonah being swallowed by the whale?

[Traveler]

In a comment posted on You-tube someone said that the Bible says that the Garden of Eden was between the Tigris and Euphrates. Is this true?

It is very common to call things in new places people go by the old places names - like New York

The Traveler

[sixpacktr]

So perhaps this was a soothing allegory that got misinterpreted as being literal like in Jonah being swallowed by the whale?

Sooo, you don't believe that Jonah was swallowed by a 'great fish'? It was made up in order to have a type of Christ's death and resurrection?

I think that Adam was a Missourian. We don't know the exact location of the GoE, but we do know thru Joseph that Adam dwelt in the Independence area after he and Eve were 'evicted' from the GoE...

Unless, of course, that too was allegorical?

[Moksha]

Sooo, you don't believe that Jonah was swallowed by a 'great fish'? It was made up in order to have a type of Christ's death and resurrection?

I think that Adam was a Missourian. We don't know the exact location of the GoE, but we do know thru Joseph that Adam dwelt in the Independence area after he and Eve were 'evicted' from the GoE...

Unless, of course, that too was allegorical?

Well, I do think the Genesis story is in the Sacred Allegory category. The Earth was not made in seven days, but rather God used the Big Bang and the process of evolution to bring us to where we are now. Missouri, eh? I lean more toward the plains of the Serengeti. :)

I had an LDS evolution teacher who put forth the idea that Adam and Eve represented the earliest tribes of Homo Sapiens - I suppose there can be a wide variety of speculative ideas as to our origins.

[sixpacktr]

Okay. I understand what you are saying, but to me none of that jives with what we learn in the temple or in the scriptures.

[quote] 53Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.

55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.

56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

57 These things were all written in the book of Enoch, and are to be testified of in due time.

(D&C 107:53 - 57)

Adam was a real guy, or so it seems from the D&C. My own personal belief is that Genesis isn't an allegory at all, but an explanation of real events. I don't hold that the earth was created in 7 of our days, but rather 7 periods or eras, the length of which we don't know. I also don't believe in the evolution theory, but rather that man and woman were placed here upon the earth by God in some way (and it could be evolution, I don't know, but I just personally don't believe that), as were all the animals and plants.

But thanks for explaining your beliefs to me.

[Moksha]

Okay. I understand what you are saying, but to me none of that jives with what we learn in the temple or in the scriptures.

As I understand it, both the scriptures and the Temple are chock full of symbolism.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Actually, I saw an episode where it talked about the Garden of Eden and there is the theory that the Tigris and Ephrates rivers at one time ran backwards and that there are two dried up river beds an archeologist discovered while looking over satellite footage of the current Tigris and Ephrates. In fact, the hypothesis is that the present day location of the Garden of Eden is actually under water. I can google and look up more concrete information for those interested, however, I do not believe that the Garden of Eden originally was in Missouri.

My personal theory (based on evidence of all continents being part of one large mega=continent) that the Garden of Eden was at one time in the center of this mega continent.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Here is what I found on Wikipedia:

Southern Mesopotamia and The Persian Gulf

The mouth of the river Tigris, a proposed location of the Garden of Eden.

Satellite photos reveal two dry riverbeds flowing toward the Persian Gulf near where the Tigris and Euphrates in Mesopotamia also terminate. This would account for four easterly flowing rivers. Archaeologist Juris Zarins claimed that the Garden of Eden was situated at the head of the Persian Gulf, where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers run into the sea at 29°47′0″N, 48°38′0″E, from his research on this area using information from many different sources, including Landsat images from space. In this theory, the Bible’s Gihon River would correspond with the Al-Qurnah in Iraq, and the Pishon River would correspond to the Wadi Al-Batin river system (also now called the Kuwait River) that 2,500-3000 years ago drained the now dry, but once quite fertile central part of the Arabian Peninsula from the Hijaz mountains 600 miles to the South West. This theory is supported by C. A. Salabach [4].

Genesis 2:10-14 also states that "the name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone." In the Biblical Table of Nations, Havilah is associated with Arabia but without a specific location being identified. The Cradle of Gold at Mahd adh Dhahab in the Hijaz mountains is the primary gold area of the peninsula. The Hijaz region also produces bdellium, a gum associated with myrrh or guggul plant.[5].

A corresponding theory is that the "there" or "thence" of verse 10 references greater Eden and not the garden, and that the description is of looking upriver from the garden into Eden and that from "there/thence" the river "separates" or "diverges" [Heb פרד = PRD] into four separate rivers. Following each of these upstream, past the various lands, leads you to their headwaters. Rejected is the commonly held idea of a fifth unnamed river from an unstated source that divides into four separate paths. This theory also puts the Garden of Eden in the vicinity of the northern end of the Persian Gulf, supporting the theory of Zarins.

This 'folk memory' about the changeable environment and coastline of the Persian Gulf is also resonant of the geological evidence about the reflooding of the lower Tigris-Euphrates Valley circa 12,000 years ago.

[InTheDoghouse]

Sixpacktr

Thank you for using one of the best standards for learning truth to any question, the scriptures, to solidify your point. I agree with you totally, and Joseph Smith totally. I guess you are in good company. Thanks.

[darrel]

I'm not very good at remembering anymore but I have studied quite a lot and Agree with Sixpacker also. I think some the Book of Enoch has been found and is being translated. We will know in due time.

When Father Adam calls his family again to Adam-Ondi-Ahman to organize them to usher in the Millennial reign of Christ we will know then. :)

[Doctor Steuss]

I think some the Book of Enoch has been found and is being translated. We will know in due time.

FYI, the Book of Enoch (at least in Ethiopic) was found long ago and an English translation has been available since the early 1800's (a cheap paperback copy of Richard Laurence's [the archbishop of Cashel] revised 1842 translation can be bought through Archive Publishers).

[Doctor Steuss]

Well, I do think the Genesis story is in the Sacred Allegory category.

I think there are probably historic aspects contained in it. I think that there was/is indeed an "Adam" (but as to who and where "Adam" was/is is a different story). But, you are in fairly good company in regards to believing (at least some of) Genesis to be Allegory:

"You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it s supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please-that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child." --Brother Brigham (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.6)

Unfortunately, you are also in some fairly bad company in regards to believing (at least some of... or most of) Genesis to be Allegory/mythoi. Moi.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

You can also read the Coptic and the Syriac versions of Enoch online as well....