Did the church cease to Exist?


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Oh, okay. I understand now. It's interesting that you say that you have your answers (from God) - obviously he doesn't verbally tell you. Is this the thing that I hear the LDS talking about all the time - their testimonies?

We believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to the heart and mind. It was described by the men on the road to Emmaus as a burning in their hearts (Luke 24). This is the testimony we experience as well. But sometimes it can be more than that. Some of us have experienced angelic visitations and miracles that help witness these things to us, as well.

It is not an easy thing to explain. It does involve an emotional experience, but it is greater than that. I never experienced anything like this until I first came across the LDS Church. And at the time, I was only interested in playing church basketball with an LDS friend, not to investigate or join it. But the first night I went to play, the bishop asked to meet with me a few minutes in his office. I did not know then what the invisible force was, but I now know that the Spirit filled the room and changed me. It witnessed to me that the things the bishop would tell me were true. Overnight, I totally changed my lifestyle, got a haircut, and began a fully committed life to Christ.

BTW, there have been a few occasions that I have heard a voice, but it was inside my head. It has saved me from dangers and death. That too, is the Spirit.

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Well, that IS one version. I believe that God started the LDS Church. After all, if the claim is true, then God and Jesus DID appear to Joseph Smith and restore their Church. I personally believe the First Vision and subsequent miracles and revelations occurred, just as I believe that Jesus healed the sick and was resurrected on the third day.

Now, history shows us that the Trinity was established as traditional church belief by way of a council that did not receive that by revelation. It was a rather rambunctious crowd that varied in their belief on the Godhead at Nicea. But those that did not follow the Trinity were expelled and/or excommunicated. Even the historian Eusebius was exiled for his belief in Origenism (very similar to the LDS Godhead belief). So, the establishment of the Trinity belief was by man.

But yet in many parts of the bible Jesus will say things like "God is better than I am", and that is him speaking as a man. But then when "Doubting" Thomas said "My Lord and my God!" Jesus did not correct him, but instead said "Happy are those who do not see but believe".

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No its not the testimony the testimony is what comes as a result of the answer to the prayer at least for me. A testimony is usually described as the heart telling or confirming what is in the head. (I think lol) - it is personal revelation

it comes in many forms everyone receives answers to prayers in different ways, I am not sure of my own origins of faith, I did not have a single moment of conversion I have always prayed and had them answered sometimes it is words, sometimes a dream,sometimes a feeling, sometimes something dramatic, sometimes something small. The Pagan in me can even receive answers just looking at the world around me after all Heavenly Father created it for me:) (sorry LDS primary song) I actually wanted to be a Nun, but couldn't reconcile myself to becoming Roman Catholic, Hindu or Buddhist the idea of a contemplative lifestyle still attracts me greatly I get my fix by attending a retreat at a local monastery every so often. Also our Temples are a similar idea and I love living so far away so I can stay for a week.

-Charley

It's interesting that you would like to do that. I've never really thought it would be my type of thing - if anything I'd like to lead youth ralleys, or Idk, spread the gospel somehow. I love the singing, the talks, everything. I get a great feeling from that.

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We believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to the heart and mind. It was described by the men on the road to Emmaus as a burning in their hearts (Luke 24). This is the testimony we experience as well. But sometimes it can be more than that. Some of us have experienced angelic visitations and miracles that help witness these things to us, as well.

It is not an easy thing to explain. It does involve an emotional experience, but it is greater than that. I never experienced anything like this until I first came across the LDS Church. And at the time, I was only interested in playing church basketball with an LDS friend, not to investigate or join it. But the first night I went to play, the bishop asked to meet with me a few minutes in his office. I did not know then what the invisible force was, but I now know that the Spirit filled the room and changed me. It witnessed to me that the things the bishop would tell me were true. Overnight, I totally changed my lifestyle, got a haircut, and began a fully committed life to Christ.

BTW, there have been a few occasions that I have heard a voice, but it was inside my head. It has saved me from dangers and death. That too, is the Spirit.

Wow. That's pretty awesome.

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But yet in many parts of the bible Jesus will say things like "God is better than I am", and that is him speaking as a man. But then when "Doubting" Thomas said "My Lord and my God!" Jesus did not correct him, but instead said "Happy are those who do not see but believe".

This is for the same reason in Matthew 5:48,the mortal Jesus tells us to be perfect like God the Father; and then the resurrected Christ tells the Nephites to be perfect like God and he are perfect (3 Ne 12:48).

Jesus was not glorified and complete until resurrected, wherein he would have us be like he was. During his earthly ministry, he encouraged all to be like the Father, whom Jesus would soon be glorified in.

D&C 93 tells us that even the mortal Jesus went from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace. IOW, he did not know everything as a babe in the cradle. As he learned truths, he immediately embraced and lived them, increasing his knowledge and grace received from the Father. He was perfect on each level of knowledge he was on at any given point of time.

Jesus IS Lord and God. He is a part of the Godhead, which is three physically separate beings, but one Godhead in all other aspects. The Father has given all his grace and glory to Christ - but this was not complete until after he arose to the Father.

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This is for the same reason in Matthew 5:48,the mortal Jesus tells us to be perfect like God the Father; and then the resurrected Christ tells the Nephites to be perfect like God and he are perfect (3 Ne 12:48).

Jesus was not glorified and complete until resurrected, wherein he would have us be like he was. During his earthly ministry, he encouraged all to be like the Father, whom Jesus would soon be glorified in.

D&C 93 tells us that even the mortal Jesus went from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace. IOW, he did not know everything as a babe in the cradle. As he learned truths, he immediately embraced and lived them, increasing his knowledge and grace received from the Father. He was perfect on each level of knowledge he was on at any given point of time.

Jesus IS Lord and God. He is a part of the Godhead, which is three physically separate beings, but one Godhead in all other aspects. The Father has given all his grace and glory to Christ - but this was not complete until after he arose to the Father.

Oh, okay. I've been told that the LDS thought Jesus as a mere human, just like us. He is a son of God, and so are you. That's what I've been told.

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Oh, okay. I've been told that the LDS thought Jesus as a mere human, just like us. He is a son of God, and so are you. That's what I've been told.

I would just like to add that Jesus Christ was God prior to his time in mortality. Under the direction of the Father, he created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. He is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament and the promised Messiah of the New Testament. It is He who appeared to the brother of Jared in the Book of Mormon hundreds of years before he was born into mortality. I know it's a long read, but check this out, I think you will find it interesting. I am interested in your thoughts on these passages:

4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea.

5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which looks small unto the understanding of men.

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:4-16)

Regards,

Vanhin

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Oh, okay. I've been told that the LDS thought Jesus as a mere human, just like us. He is a son of God, and so are you. That's what I've been told.

He was part divine and part mortal. The difference for LDS is that those are just steps in the spiritual evolution of a spiritual being, which we all are (including Jesus). Jesus is our elder spiritual brother, and our God in that he has paved the way for our immortality and exaltation. Had he been a mere man, he would not have had the ability to resurrect or exalt himself, much less anyone else.

For the Trinitarian, there is a duality of the mortal Christ, because his god-substance and his mortal being are two separate, but joined, persons. Why is that? Because the perfect Trinitarian substance cannot be mixed with impure matter.

For LDS, we are all formed as spirit children of God, and continue into this life on our way to exaltation: being like God and inheriting all that God has.

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I would just like to add that Jesus Christ was God prior to his time in mortality. Under the direction of the Father, he created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. He is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament and the promised Messiah of the New Testament. It is He who appeared to the brother of Jared in the Book of Mormon hundreds of years before he was born into mortality. I know it's a long read, but check this out, I think you will find it interesting. I am interested in your thoughts on these passages:

4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea.

5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which looks small unto the understanding of men.

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:4-16)

Regards,

Vanhin

That is interesting. About when did it take place? (As in, the year?) One thing confused me though: the LDS believe that the Lord, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all seperate beings, but in passage 14 He says "I am the Father and the Son".

And not exactly relevant, but I'll ask my question anyways. ^_^ Why do they call him the "brother of Jared"? Doesn't he have a name? :huh: I suppose it is unknown or something, right?

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He was part divine and part mortal. The difference for LDS is that those are just steps in the spiritual evolution of a spiritual being, which we all are (including Jesus). Jesus is our elder spiritual brother, and our God in that he has paved the way for our immortality and exaltation. Had he been a mere man, he would not have had the ability to resurrect or exalt himself, much less anyone else.

For the Trinitarian, there is a duality of the mortal Christ, because his god-substance and his mortal being are two separate, but joined, persons. Why is that? Because the perfect Trinitarian substance cannot be mixed with impure matter.

For LDS, we are all formed as spirit children of God, and continue into this life on our way to exaltation: being like God and inheriting all that God has.

I agree with your statements. I think we're agreed on this topic.

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That is interesting. About when did it take place? (As in, the year?) One thing confused me though: the LDS believe that the Lord, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all seperate beings, but in passage 14 He says "I am the Father and the Son".

And not exactly relevant, but I'll ask my question anyways. ^_^ Why do they call him the "brother of Jared"? Doesn't he have a name? :huh: I suppose it is unknown or something, right?

Thank you for reading the passages, and for asking such good questions! The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, is full of references to the unity of the members of the Godhead. This particular reference has significance; it speaks specifically of his role as the Redeemer. He said:

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Abinadi, another prophet in the Book of Mormon expounds on this doctrine:

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men— (Mosiah 15:4-8)

Significant here is that the "will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father", thus He is the Father and the Son. Further, those who accept the Gospel and are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, they become children of Christ. he is our advocate with the Father. He is one with the Father in will, doctrine and purpose, but not substance.

I don't know why they called the brother of Jared, "the brother of Jared". Joseph Smith revealed that his name was "Mahonri Moriancumer" (see “The Jaredites,” Juvenile Instructor, 1 May 1892, 282).

We don't know the exact year, the record does not reveal it sufficiently. We do know that the Jaredites were led to the Americas during the time of the tower of Babel. The Abinadi quote above was around 148 B.C.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Thank you for reading the passages, and for asking such good questions! The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, is full of references to the unity of the members of the Godhead. This particular reference has significance; it speaks specifically of his role as the Redeemer. He said:

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Abinadi, another prophet in the Book of Mormon expounds on this doctrine:

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men— (Mosiah 15:4-8)

Significant here is that the "will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father", thus He is the Father and the Son. Further, those who accept the Gospel and are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, they become children of Christ. he is our advocate with the Father. He is one with the Father in will, doctrine and purpose, but not substance.

I don't know why they called the brother of Jared, "the brother of Jared". Joseph Smith revealed that his name was "Mahonri Moriancumer" (see “The Jaredites,” Juvenile Instructor, 1 May 1892, 282).

We don't know the exact year, the record does not reveal it sufficiently. We do know that the Jaredites were led to the Americas during the time of the tower of Babel. The Abinadi quote above was around 148 B.C.

Regards,

Vanhin

You're welcome. Thanks for sharing this with me. This is exactly what I came here looking for. ^_^

Wait, so that what you quoted before, the BOM 4-16 earlier, what time period was that at? Certainly not in the B.C., right?

So now I know that you believe how he is one with the Father, but not why. Why is he only the same in will, doctrine and purpose, but not substance? So, in conclusion, the LDS believe that the Father was working through Jesus when he performed all his miracles, correct?

Oh, and does the LDS faith concentrate more on the bible or on the BoM, or does it concentrate on both equally?

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You're welcome. Thanks for sharing this with me. This is exactly what I came here looking for. ^_^

Wait, so that what you quoted before, the BOM 4-16 earlier, what time period was that at? Certainly not in the B.C., right?

It was B.C. It was Jesus Christ appearing to the brother of Jared hundreds of years before His birth into mortality. We know that the Jaredites (Jared and his people) were led to the Americas around the time of tower of Babel, when the Lord confounded all the languages.

The Book of Mormon reveals that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has always been true. If there was ever a time when God had a prophet upon the earth, he revealed to him the message of the Gospel, and of Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve, our first parents, were commanded to sacrifice the firstlings of their flock in similitude of the great and last sacrifice that would be performed by the Redeemer of mankind. They knew about Jesus as well, and looked to him for a remission of their sins many years before the actual Atonement was performed. The sacrifice, by the shedding of blood, lasted until Jesus performed the Atonement. That is why one of His titles in scripture is, the Lamb of God. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son. We know that the Lord did not let that go through, but it was also in similitude of the sacrifice of the Son of God. Moses knew of Jesus Christ, indeed, the entire Law of Moses was prepratory to the coming of the Messiah. Unfortunately, the Jews, in general, did not quite understand the purpose of the law, and did not recognize the Messiah when he finally arrived. The Nephites, on the other hand, who were also of the House of Israel, got it. Check this out! Between 559 and 545 B.C. the Nephites already understood the Atonement of Jesus Christ:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. (2 Nephi 25:24-26)

So now I know that you believe how he is one with the Father, but not why. Why is he only the same in will, doctrine and purpose, but not substance? So, in conclusion, the LDS believe that the Father was working through Jesus when he performed all his miracles, correct?

Because Jesus Christ is actually the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, just like he claims to be. He actually has a Father, to whom He and we pray. Not only that, we are also spirit children of God as well. We are to emulate the example of the Son, and become one with him as he is with the Father. That is the object of our existence. Consider the words of the Son in this regard:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:21-24)

Clearly Jesus doesn't mean that we will become one in substence with the Father! He means one just like has always meant one. In order for a person to reach their fullest potential, their will must be "swallowed up" in the will of the Father as well, by emulating his Son.

Oh, and does the LDS faith concentrate more on the bible or on the BoM, or does it concentrate on both equally?

It may seem at times tht we concentrate more on the Book of Mormon, mainly because it was written for our time. The authors of the Book of Mormon were shown, by revelation, our time and our struggles, and God prepared the Bookf of Mormon for us. That said, we accept and use all the scriptures, including the Bible. We also believe that God can reveal more of his word to us. I leave you with one of our articles of faith that says it better than I can:

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (AoF 1:9)

Regards,

Vanhin

Ps. I'm sorry about the length on my posts. I just want to make sure I explain these things as fully as reasonably possible. :) I really do appreciate you taking the time to read these lengthy ramblings.

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It was B.C. It was Jesus Christ appearing to the brother of Jared hundreds of years before His birth into mortality. We know that the Jaredites (Jared and his people) were led to the Americas around the time of tower of Babel, when the Lord confounded all the languages.

The Book of Mormon reveals that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has always been true. If there was ever a time when God had a prophet upon the earth, he revealed to him the message of the Gospel, and of Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve, our first parents, were commanded to sacrifice the firstlings of their flock in similitude of the great and last sacrifice that would be performed by the Redeemer of mankind. They knew about Jesus as well, and looked to him for a remission of their sins many years before the actual Atonement was performed. The sacrifice, by the shedding of blood, lasted until Jesus performed the Atonement. That is why one of His titles in scripture is, the Lamb of God. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son. We know that the Lord did not let that go through, but it was also in similitude of the sacrifice of the Son of God. Moses knew of Jesus Christ, indeed, the entire Law of Moses was prepratory to the coming of the Messiah. Unfortunately, the Jews, in general, did not quite understand the purpose of the law, and did not recognize the Messiah when he finally arrived. The Nephites, on the other hand, who were also of the House of Israel, got it. Check this out! Between 559 and 545 B.C. the Nephites already understood the Atonement of Jesus Christ:

Regards,

Vanhin

Ps. I'm sorry about the length on my posts. I just want to make sure I explain these things as fully as reasonably possible. :) I really do appreciate you taking the time to read these lengthy ramblings.

My only thing with this, or at least the first two paragraphs that I've quoted, is all completely new to me. That's why talking about the BoM is hard for me to talk about, really. I can't really relate to it. I've never even heard of that, so I don't really know what to make of it. It's interesting though, and I will be the first to admit that I have LOADS to learn.

Thanks for typing out all these for me. I appreciate it.:)

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Okay - prove it.

I bet that you don't have one single solitary shred of evidence.

What are you trying to say? I have already been informed by others that you ALSO believe that Joseph Smith was a man. A prophet, but a MAN. And if you're asking me to prove to you that men are fallible... what evidence are you asking for? Or are you just looking for a debate? Some people here have been really really kind to me and have taught me what the LDS believe in, and some seem to either think that I am degrading them in some way, form or fashion... I don't know. I honestly can't understand what you want me to prove to you.

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That was a strange thing to say by CG [Catholic Girl] since it is quite evident that the Prophet was a witness of the Godhead and was instructed.

I am feeling very frustrated. Joseph Smith was a human being. Not divine, in other words. When I said that, I was talking to someone who said that the Catholic Church was started by a council of men, and so I reminded him of who started the LDS church. Sure, he was instructed. Okay, sure. That's your belief. But Snow was asking me to give evidence that he's a man... :huh:

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What are you trying to say? I have already been informed by others that you ALSO believe that Joseph Smith was a man. A prophet, but a MAN. And if you're asking me to prove to you that men are fallible... what evidence are you asking for? Or are you just looking for a debate? Some people here have been really really kind to me and have taught me what the LDS believe in, and some seem to either think that I am degrading them in some way, form or fashion... I don't know. I honestly can't understand what you want me to prove to you.

Your point was that The Church of Jesus Christ was started by man but that the Roman Catholic Church was started by Christ. You stated it as a factual matter, which it is not. It is only an opinion.

Your position that Christ started Catholicism is unfounded and unsupported by the historical record and that Christ imbues the RCC with authority to act in his name is a completely dogmatic (simply a matter of assertion with no evidence to back it up) belief.

That you believe it is fine but you belief has no greater validity than that of anyone who asserts there belief, for example the Jehovah Witnesses or Lutherans. It is your assertion as fact, when it is not, that is objectionable.

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Your point was that The Church of Jesus Christ was started by man but that the Roman Catholic Church was started by Christ. You stated it as a factual matter, which it is not. It is only an opinion.

Your position that Christ started Catholicism is unfounded and unsupported by the historical record and that Christ imbues the RCC with authority to act in his name is a completely dogmatic (simply a matter of assertion with no evidence to back it up) belief.

That you believe it is fine but you belief has no greater validity than that of anyone who asserts there belief, for example the Jehovah Witnesses or Lutherans. It is your assertion as fact, when it is not, that is objectionable.

Snow, I always read your posts because you are one of the brighter bulbs on this forum tree and you always seem to have a different view for me to consider. May I advise you on a little tiny matter? Our friend Catholic Girl did not come here to hear anything said by anyone that is not a support of the Catholic view. I do not think our friend has a grasp of history (how the Dark Ages came to be) and the disputes between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. I am quite certain she has no clue who the Nestorian Christians of the East are nor does she have any idea under heaven of their history or claims to Christ as their origin.

When the Pharisees, Scribes and Jews judged Jesus unto death; a man named Nicodemus asked a most interesting question. He asked, “Does our Law judge a man before it has heard him?” Now I may be wrong and if I am it most likely will not be the first or the last time but it does appear to me that Catholic Girl has judged the “Mormons” before she had heard them speak. And I am not sure but I do not think she can hear any of us speak even now.

The Traveler

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My only thing with this, or at least the first two paragraphs that I've quoted, is all completely new to me. That's why talking about the BoM is hard for me to talk about, really. I can't really relate to it. I've never even heard of that, so I don't really know what to make of it. It's interesting though, and I will be the first to admit that I have LOADS to learn.

Thanks for typing out all these for me. I appreciate it.:)

You are welcome, and thanks for reading. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

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There is miss conception that the Jewish leadership [King, priests] during Christ's ministry did not recognized Jesus Christ. That is not the case according to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

The sons of perdition, men who once were in possession of the light and truth, but who turned away from them and denied the Lord, putting him to an open shame, as did the Jews when they crucified him and said, "His blood be on us, and on our children;" men who consent, against light and knowledge, to the shedding of innocent blood, it will be said unto them, "Depart from me, ye cursed." (Matt. 25:41) I never knew you; depart into the second death, even banishment from the presence of God for ever and ever, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched, from whence there is no redemption, neither in time nor in eternity. Herein is the difference between the second and the first death wherein man became spiritually dead; for from the first death he may be redeemed by the blood of Christ, through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, but from the second, there is no redemption at all. (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine: Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith, compiled by John A. Widtsoe, p.451)

For them, they put the very Christ to 'open shame' as Joseph mentioned. Even Roman puppet king during the timeframe knew that He was the very Christ as prophesied and had every male child executed.

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Your point was that The Church of Jesus Christ was started by man but that the Roman Catholic Church was started by Christ. You stated it as a factual matter, which it is not. It is only an opinion.

Your position that Christ started Catholicism is unfounded and unsupported by the historical record and that Christ imbues the RCC with authority to act in his name is a completely dogmatic (simply a matter of assertion with no evidence to back it up) belief.

That you believe it is fine but you belief has no greater validity than that of anyone who asserts there belief, for example the Jehovah Witnesses or Lutherans. It is your assertion as fact, when it is not, that is objectionable.

Christ SAID "This is my church". So now are you claiming that he didn't say that? How can that be construed as an opinion? Many people say that the Catholic Church became untrue or whatever, but it is common opinion that it WAS started by Christ. You are arguing your own religion with this, because I thought that the LDS believe that Christ started the Church, but then the Church fell away. (Maybe I have been told wrong. At this point I'm not sure what to believe, because I have heard very different answers from my friends and this forum.)

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Snow, I always read your posts because you are one of the brighter bulbs on this forum tree and you always seem to have a different view for me to consider. May I advise you on a little tiny matter? Our friend Catholic Girl did not come here to hear anything said by anyone that is not a support of the Catholic view. I do not think our friend has a grasp of history (how the Dark Ages came to be) and the disputes between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. I am quite certain she has no clue who the Nestorian Christians of the East are nor does she have any idea under heaven of their history or claims to Christ as their origin.

When the Pharisees, Scribes and Jews judged Jesus unto death; a man named Nicodemus asked a most interesting question. He asked, “Does our Law judge a man before it has heard him?” Now I may be wrong and if I am it most likely will not be the first or the last time but it does appear to me that Catholic Girl has judged the “Mormons” before she had heard them speak. And I am not sure but I do not think she can hear any of us speak even now.

The Traveler

Well thank you for your opinion. I must be deaf if I have never heard the LDS speak - why would I be here now listening to you? You think that I am not absorbing anything? Thanks for that. I appreciate it. But I live in Mormon Capital. I think I have heard plenty of you speak.

I will also be the first to admit that I don't know a huge amount about history. I guess I'm just not intelligent enough for you.

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