Mosiah 16:15

[Jonathon]

Greetings,

I am new to this forum, a follower of Jesus Christ, and friendly toward the Mormon Church, though not a member.

Today, as I opened the Book of Mormon, I stumbled across Mosiah 16:14-15:

Therefore, if ye teach the law of Moses, also teach that it is a shadow of those things which are to come - Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

As a Protestant Christian, this verse aligns completely with my theology. However, my understanding of LDS doctrine, is that Jesus Christ is considered to be separate, with a body of flesh and bones, from Heavenly Father? Am I correct in my understanding?

Why, then, does the Book of Mormon state in this verse that Christ the Lord is also the Eternal Father?

I would appreciate your help in understanding this from an LDS perspective.

Thank you!

Jonathon

[cnnbotha]

Hi Jonathon

You ask great questions.

We do believe that Jesus Christ is seperate to our Heavenly Father in body, but they are one in Godhood and in purpose. In other words, they work together.

According to the teachings of the Book of Mormon and our prophets "Jesus was a God in the preexistence. Our Father in Heaven gave Him a name above all others—the Christ. He came down under instruction of Our Heavenly Father to Create the earth and to Redeem all mankind.

“And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.” (Mosiah 3:5–8.)

Jesus Christ is “the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning.” (Mosiah 3:8.)

“Wherefore,” declared Jacob in the Book of Mormon, “if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?” (Jacob 4:9.) God, the Creator, commands His creations even at this very moment.

So we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but also Our Father, father of the earth. The same way that Heavenly Father is His Father and also our Father.

I hope this make sense.

[BenRaines]

Christ is the Father in the sense of him giving us life through his resurrection and atonement. It is through Christ that we have a hope of eternal life. We, when we accept Christ, become his sons and daughters. It is through the grace and gift of God that we are his children.

Ben Raines

[Jonathon]

Thank you. I will mull this over, and let you know if I have any further questions on the subject. Thanks for the speedy response.

Jonathon

[Still_Small_Voice]

Might I also add clarification on one point of doctrine. Some outside the church will stress the point that we believe Jesus has a body of flesh and bones. What they do not teach is we believe His body is a perfect, glorified, immortal body of flesh and bones.

When Christ appeared to His apostles He said to them: "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke 24:39

[Doctor Steuss]

One thing that I think is often forgotten when analyzing verses in the Book of Mormon is that the writers weren't LDS.

Their Christology does not necessarily have to line up with our own.

“Line upon line…”

[Guest Malcolm]

Greetings,

I am new to this forum, a follower of Jesus Christ, and friendly toward the Mormon Church, though not a member.

Today, as I opened the Book of Mormon, I stumbled across Mosiah 16:14-15:

Therefore, if ye teach the law of Moses, also teach that it is a shadow of those things which are to come - Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

As a Protestant Christian, this verse aligns completely with my theology. However, my understanding of LDS doctrine, is that Jesus Christ is considered to be separate, with a body of flesh and bones, from Heavenly Father? Am I correct in my understanding?

Why, then, does the Book of Mormon state in this verse that Christ the Lord is also the Eternal Father?

I would appreciate your help in understanding this from an LDS perspective.

Thank you!

Jonathon

What else can I add? Perhaps that the writers and prophets of the Book of Mormon articulated about who Christ was, why he would come and what he would do in his ministry.

The descriptions offered in the BoM are unmatched in clarity, specificity and purpose. There is no ambiguity or room for misinterpretation or alternative meaning. My ALL time favorite:

3 And he said unto me: Awake, and hear the words which I shall tell thee; for behold, I am come to declare unto you the glad tidings of great joy.

4 For the Lord hath heard thy prayers, and hath judged of thy righteousness, and hath sent me to declare unto thee that thou mayest rejoice; and that thou mayest declare unto thy people, that they may also be filled with joy.

5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through bfaith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

10 And he shall arise the bthird day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned. Mosiah 3

[rameumptom]

The writers of the BoM, would have believed in the coming Messiah, the Great Angel of the Presence. Margaret Barker wrote concerning the Great Angel in her first book (an excellent read).

The Messiah, Yahweh, was considered the representative of God's presence. Just as an angel in Revelation appears and talks as if he is Christ (but rebukes John, when John tries to worship him), Jesus is representative of the Father in all things. LDS believe that the Father has given all things to Christ, including sharing His glory with him.

And, as many have mentioned, Christ becomes the father of our salvation; and we need to become his children before we can become the children of Heavenly Father.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I am LDS and have been for many years but I still struggle getting my head round the idea of being his child when I know he is my brother and that Heavenly Father is the father of both of us. I can understand how Adam can be referred to as our father because he was the first human being on earth and we are all descended from him.

I can even understand the confusion which arises about Heavenly Father and Jesus being the same person when people mistakenly believe that Heavenly Father is the God of the Old Testament. Once we understand that the God of the old Testament who is identified as Jehovah is actually the pre-existant name of Jesus Christ then it makes sense that the God of the Old Testament is actually the son of Heavenly Father and not Heavenly Father himself.

I do know that Christ is the creator of this world and the creator of the body of Adam so perhaps that is the sense in which he is our father because he was the creator of the mortal body of the first child who had a mortal body and from whom we are all descended. That's the only way it makes sense to me anyway.

[a-train]

Why, then, does the Book of Mormon state in this verse that Christ the Lord is also the Eternal Father?

Don't miss the fact that the first page of the Book of Mormon says that its purpose is to convince both Jew and Gentile that 'Jesus is the Christ, The Eternal God.'

John 1:1 tells as that Jesus was in the beginning with God, and that He was God. Nevermind the Joseph Smith translation of that verse, the truth of the Godship of Jesus of Nazareth is the doctrine of Mormonism.

'As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.' -Lorenzo Snow

Jesus is God. He came to earth and was as we are now. And because of His coming, we may become as He is now.

Rev. 3:21: 'To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.' - Jesus Christ, our LORD

It is the rigid definition of monotheism that causes all the trouble in theology. It is assumed that there can be only a single Being of the species and power of God. It is thought that any deviation from such a notion is a departure from monotheism.

This, of course, depends on the definition of monotheism. The LDS position is that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are Three seperate Beings of the same species, and that man, devils, and angels are all of that same species.

Mormons do not interpret verses like Isaiah 44:6: 'Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.', to be some indication that the LORD is the only member of His species, but rather the only member of our species in His position as our King and our God. 'For we are also his offspring.' (Acts 17:28)

There is a great tendency for self-loathing and a bitterness toward the species of man in light of the atrocities of mankind. This feeling casts doubt that any man could be God. It was this very mindset that led to the rejection and crucifixion of the King of Kings. Regardless of His miraculous healings, His virtuous care, His compassion, and His profound teachings, His manhood was the beam in the eye of His accusers.

As Jesus hung on the cross, the self-deceiving feeling of vindication was in the hearts and minds of His crucifiers as revealed in their words: 'He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.' (Matt 27:42)

We make no assertion that God is the only King, but that He is the King of kings. He is not the only Lord, but the Lord of lords. There is for the reason I've mentioned a hesitancy however when we arrive at the term 'god'. He is the God of gods. We are hesitant to say that there are indeed many gods.

'For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible.' (Deut. 17:10)

It is certainly no sin to assert the singularity of the status, the power, the knowledge, and the achievement of our LORD. It is further no sin to appreciate the reality of the existance of kings and lords among men, and this truth is a demonstration of the real height of the King of kings and Lord of lords. For as powerful as was Caesar in his palace over his empire, it was nothing in the presence of the King whose kingdom is not of this world. For said He: 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.' (Matt 22:21)

The King of kings, the Lord of lords, and the God of gods had little necessity nor care for the small token of coinage upon which was the superscription of Caesar. And as the people of Israel looked to their god to free them from the oppressive Caesarean conquest, they failed to notice, by virtue of His manhood, the God of gods and the King of kings in their midst.

It was for this purpose that Jesus said as he was led to calvary: 'Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.' (Luke 23:28)

And like the Pharisees in the days of our LORD, we all have in us the tendency to commit this great failure to perceive the King of kings and His messengers when they are among us. Our preconceived notions and our and ill-advised attempts to glorify God with our personal philosophy will end in tragedy as it did for the Pharisees.

As it was declared in the ears of the people of Israel that the King of kings was among them, they said: 'Crucify him!' They murdered His messengers and rejected Him, thinking all along they were protecting the truth, thinking all along they were worshipping the true God and implementing His law.

How did this happen? They had received philosophies of men for the revelations of God. They could not believe that God could be a man. They could not believe that the Son of God could be a man. They could not believe that the King of kings was man, nor the Lord of lords, nor the God of gods.

It is somehow, in their mind, impossible for the Eternal Father of mankind to be a man.

-a-train

[WANDERER]

Jesus us the creator is a new concept to me...are there other references for this in the KJV? Yep Willow I'm a tad confused on it for the same reasons : ).

[a-train]

The name by which the Hebrews knew God was the tetragrammaton, represented in English by 'YHWH'. The unspeakable name of God was replaced in texts within the synagogues with the term 'Adonai' meaning 'Lord' or 'Master' in order to avoid accidental vocalization of the Name during a reading. The KJV translators followed this long standing tradition and placed 'LORD' (in all caps) throughout the text wherever the tetragrammaton was found.

The first such instance is Genesis 2:4. One will notice, that throughout Genesis 1, the term 'God' alone is used. It is not until Genesis 2:4 that the term 'the LORD God' is used, and from that point it is used throughout the pentateuch.

The term 'God' was used in the place of the term 'Eloheim', a plural term meaning Great Ones. Because of the rigid tradition and definition of monotheism over centuries of Judeo-Christian history, the KJV makers accordingly used the term 'God' rather than 'Gods'. To some this truth is shocking, but it is true that the Old Testament really does say Gods all the way through it.

A read of Genesis 1 with this in mind will bring about a vision of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost together at the work of the first creation. 'In the beginning [the Gods] created the heaven and the earth.' Verse 26 says: 'And [the Gods] said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:'

Genesis 2:4 is where the tetragrammaton comes into play. Many have noted the sudden shift in the creation narrative beginning with that verse. Some have gone so far as to call it a contradiction because of the fact that man was created in chapter one, but in chapter 2, man is not yet found, but that is another conversation entirely.

The 'LORD God' refers to a specific Member of the Godhead. Although it is possible that the term can be used to describe any individual Member of the Godhead, it has generally been utilized only to refer to One.

The term means 'I Am'. The formulation of 'the LORD God' can be thought of as saying 'the I Am of the Gods' or 'the God called Jehovah among the Gods'. It simply designates a specific Member of the Godhead. 'I Am' denotes 'Unchangable'. This Member of the Godhead is specifically referred to as unchangable.

Although the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are each unchangable, we are more vividly aware of the Saviour's unchanging character in light of His mortal probation and subsequent temptations and persecutions, none of which altered His course.

'The LORD God', Jehovah, I Am, the Great I Am, the Unchangable One, Adonai, is Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is the LORD.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

When ever you see the term 'Lord GOD', Lord before God, denotes "Master' [GOD]. Now who is the Master God spoken here?

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Mosiah 15 1-8

1 AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men—

This should help.

[rameumptom]

One thing that even many LDS do not understand well of our theology, is the relational tie of the Godhead.

Agape love binds the three members together in more than just unity, but that they are bound in all things, except physical body. The mind of one becomes the mind of all of them.

Secondly, that the power of godhood that Jesus and the Holy Ghost receive, they receive from the power of God the Father. D&C 93 tells us that Christ went from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace, until he received a fulness. Upon receiving a fulness of the Father, Jesus received his god status. And we are to seek the same inheritance of the Father, through Christ. We come to Christ, and through Christ may enter into that close Agape relationship with the Godhead, and receive through grace the ability to be as God is.

For those who accept less of God's grace, they will receive the benefits that they are ready and willing to receive, to whatever level of light, glory and grace that may be.

Christ becomes Creator under God's direction and grace. We become saviors of mankind under Christ's direction and grace. The day may come when we will also become creators under God's direction and grace.

But it all has to do with entering into the type of loving relationship that the members of the Godhead share. And the more we learn to achieve that, the more Christ and the Father can bestow their grace upon us, so that we can imitate and be like them.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

We become saviors of mankind under Christ's direction and grace.

What do you mean? We will not be Saviors in the sense that Jesus was. We will not die and take up life again for the purpose of overcoming death for all mankind. That was already done and there is no more need for it to be done.

The three pillars of eternity, the creation, the fall, and the atonement each have been fulfilled. However, there are multiple creations and therefore multiple falls to go with those creations, because they were created terrestial(not subject to death, pain, or sin) That is what the fall brought in, but only one atonement was needed to redeem men. This is because it is infinite and eternal, and encompassed all the children of God the Father.

I guess what I am saying is, I don't understand how we can be saviors of mankind?

[Hemidakota]

JST Obad 1:21

[rameumptom]

Hemidakota has shared with you a verse calling for us to be "saviors on mount Zion."

When I go to the temple and do baptisms for the dead, I become a savior (little 's') in helping provide salvation to others. When I served my mission, I helped many hear the gospel, and helped bring salvation to them. When I serve in my current calling, I offer salvation.

Christ performed all his works through the Melchizedek Priesthood. And while he is the only one who is THE Savior (capital 'S'), he has shared his authority and power with us, so that we can assist him in his labors of saving mankind. In this way, we become as He is, in serving Christ as he needs us to serve in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind (Moses 1:39).