Outer Darkness

[Traveler]

I have speculated that outer darkness to which Satan and his followers will end up in for eternity was quite possibly a supper massive black hole.  I thought not to put this post in the LDS Gospel Discussion because we are not really discussing gospel doctrine but rather genera speculation.

Once the event horizon of a black hole is crossed all we know about blackholes are pure speculation.  It is possible that the interior beyond the event horizon is pure light.  That all matter and energy exist at the interior as light.

I have come up with what I think is better speculation – that outer darkness is a planet specifically created for those that love darkness.  Such a planet could possibly exist in what we call a rogue planet occupying interstellar space or even intergalactic space.  Such a place would be ideal for those that prefer darkness to light.

 

The Traveler

[mirkwood]

I have always thought black hole too.  I like your second theory as well.

[askandanswer]

Here are some totally speculative notes I wrote on the subject many years ago.

 

 

Here are a few thoughts I have jotted down over the years on the possibility that black holes have some sort of divine role in the universe. There is nothing scriptural here, just a few ideas, maybe even possibilities. I’m not saying they are right or wrong, I’ve just found it to be an interesting thing to think about from time to time.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

What forces or objects in the universe repel each other in the same way that light and truth forsake evil? Opposite ends of magnetic poles? Matter and anti-matter? Are these forces properties of, or in some way derived from that same opposition between light and evil? What creates or generates light, and what absorbs light and sucks it up? Stars create light, black holes absorb it. Are stars in some way gods, or the abode of gods, and black holes in some ways abodes of evil? Do stars create matter through nuclear reactions and then disseminate that matter throughout space and do black holes tear matter apart through gravitational forces and prevent matter from dissemination throughout space? God creates by joining things together, eg, spirit to intelligence to create a soul, sperm and egg to create a body, husband and wife to create an eternal couple, black holes tear things apart.

Isaiah 54:2 (Old Testament | Isaiah 54:16)

16  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 

When God wants something to be destroyed, one way of doing so would be to separate that thing into its component parts.

The works of God are endless and eternal and possibly increasing. The universe is expanding. Gravitational forces could prevent the universe from expanding and cause it to contract back in upon itself, ultimately reversing the big bang. That which limits is evil and of the devil, that which increases is good and of God. That which promotes freedom, ie, free movement and expansion of matter or spirit, is of God, that which promotes control, ie, preventing the movement of matter and spirit, is of the devil. If the intentions of God and expansion and progression, and the effect of black holes is to contract, these two forces would seem to be completely opposed to each other.

 

It seem likely that God’s  dwelling place is a Sun. Abraham chapter 3 seems to suggest this as do the many references to God dwelling in the midst of everlasting burnings. If this is true then it is interesting to speculate on the possibility of outer darkness being a black hole. It seems reasonable to suppose that hell, or outer darkness would be the opposite of heaven.  A sun gives out all its light, a black hole gives out none. A sun allows life by giving of its light, a black hole causes death by sucking up whatever gets too close, including light.

 

Just this morning, while thinking how to respond, I came across this. Totally unsupported, and somewhat dated, but indicating that at least someone else has considered the possibility that black holes might be outer darkness.

 If the black hole were rotating and the astronaut navigates his ship at just the right angle, instead of being drawn to oblivion at the hole's center, he might be flung to another region of time and space. But we would never know if he were successful: it would be impossible for him to return. Could this be the "outer darkness" mentioned in some scriptures such as D&C 101:91?

(From The Creation, by Frank B Salisbury, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_B._Salisbury available on  gospelink.com

Black Holes are "outer darkness" where God will cast those sons of perdition that deny His spirit. This includes all Ex-Mormons. See "The Creation," page 146 and D&C 101:90-91

 

I wonder if outer darkness will involve a dixcontinuity of identity for those who go there. Those who go there will be those who have first received and then denied the Holy Ghost. They are opposed to or cannot adjust themselves to the least portion of the Spirit. As such, there is absolutely nothing at all that can be done with them.  This suggests that they are totally unsuitable for any other purposes and totally unable to be redeemed. The raw material of which they were made, being unable to accomodate any portion of the spirit is burned and purified until it is once again usable. Only the base elements of which the person was composed would remain, ready to be put to use once more, to start the whole journey of eternal progression again, beginning from the lowest point. Without accepting a degree of the Spirit, nothing would be able to progress. Without accepting the loving guidance of a Father in heaven there is nothing more that can be done for that being.

[askandanswer]

I think I've solved the problem of the nature of outer darkness. At night, when I am in my room, it is dark. The environment on my side of the window, inside the apartment, is inner darkness. The environment on the other side of the window is.........outer darkness. Problem solved. Maybe I should give up my day job and become a theologian  

[mordorbund]

I thought astronomists already confirmed Venus is covered in hellfire.

[askandanswer]

33 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I thought astronomists already confirmed Venus is covered in hellfire.

Venusfire, not hellfire

[CommanderSouth]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I wonder if outer darkness will involve a dixcontinuity of identity for those who go there. Those who go there will be those who have first received and then denied the Holy Ghost. They are opposed to or cannot adjust themselves to the least portion of the Spirit. As such, there is absolutely nothing at all that can be done with them.  This suggests that they are totally unsuitable for any other purposes and totally unable to be redeemed. The raw material of which they were made, being unable to accomodate any portion of the spirit is burned and purified until it is once again usable. Only the base elements of which the person was composed would remain, ready to be put to use once more, to start the whole journey of eternal progression again, beginning from the lowest point. Without accepting a degree of the Spirit, nothing would be able to progress. Without accepting the loving guidance of a Father in heaven there is nothing more that can be done for that being.

This is where my mind goes.  If one CHOOSES to reject the light, nothing can be done.  God can take away all of one's power to act in many ways, but he cannot MAKE a person believe.  If one were to reject ALL truth, this would be the logical outcome.  I feel Outer Darkness is the nothing (figurative, we don't do true Ex Nihilo) from which all something comes, you go back to the bottom, to be there for an indeterminate infinity.

[JohnsonJones]

I don't know where it is, or even if it has a where.

I think Outer Darkness is where the Lord and his creation is not.  It is beyond his creation.  Since the Lord is the source of light (and thus energy and heat), it is a location without light, heat, or energy.

It may lack the definitions that we have such as anything measurable.  Is it a black hole?  I have no idea.  I don't know enough about black holes to say whether it is or isn't.

I think energy and matter go into a black hole though (and cannot escape them, at least in our physical universe, but perhaps they are portals that can be used for transportation by beings of a higher order than we are) and that would indicate that matter and energy are located within. 

I would say that may still be within the realm of our Father's creation.

I'd imagine, even though a Black Hole is probably pretty bad to be in, Outer Darkness may be worse. 

Outer Darkness is literally...nothing.  The great nothingness.  At least to my mind.  No creation, no power, no energy exists there.  If you get tossed in there, it's just you.  Forever and longer.  And whatever else gets tossed (or rather, out) with you.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I believe Outer Darkness is just my Grandparents old basement. It was super creepy and dark down there. We kids avoided it like the plague.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I believe Outer Darkness is just my Grandparents old basement. It was super creepy and dark down there. We kids avoided it like the plague.

My grandfather had a root cellar.   It was dug out of the ground and covered with dirt and growing stuff.  It was a dirt path down to a heavy wooden door to get inside.  There were always spider webs everywhere by the entrance.  For punishment, grandpa would lock us inside for a time.  I was under the impression at the time that the heaven wooden door was a back door to hell.  I loved to explore everywhere at grandpa’s – especially the old barn.  But the root cellar was not a place I would go to willingly – I also avoided the bee hives.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't know where it is, or even if it has a where.

I think Outer Darkness is where the Lord and his creation is not.  It is beyond his creation.  Since the Lord is the source of light (and thus energy and heat), it is a location without light, heat, or energy.

It may lack the definitions that we have such as anything measurable.  Is it a black hole?  I have no idea.  I don't know enough about black holes to say whether it is or isn't.

I think energy and matter go into a black hole though (and cannot escape them, at least in our physical universe, but perhaps they are portals that can be used for transportation by beings of a higher order than we are) and that would indicate that matter and energy are located within. 

I would say that may still be within the realm of our Father's creation.

I'd imagine, even though a Black Hole is probably pretty bad to be in, Outer Darkness may be worse. 

Outer Darkness is literally...nothing.  The great nothingness.  At least to my mind.  No creation, no power, no energy exists there.  If you get tossed in there, it's just you.  Forever and longer.  And whatever else gets tossed (or rather, out) with you.

The brightest object in the universe is called a Quasar.   When I was young no one knew what a quasar was, and they had no idea what could cause such a release of light and energy.   We are quite sure that a quasar is a supermassive black hole that is feeding on whatever is near it – presumably other stars.  Quasars are the greatest sources of light in the universe that we know of.  I find it interesting that the greatest source of light in the universe is at its core, a black hole.

I speculate that Kolob is, in reality, a quasar.  In Abraham chapter 3 we are told among the great stars that one of them is near to the “throne of G-d” and that there are many great stars near this very great star that the L-rd calls Kolob. Quasars are the greatest stars of the universe.

In the Book of Enoch we learn that stars are a means of purifying corrupted matter.  One of the great modern discussions concerning black holes (or Planck Star) dissolve the intelligence of matter which is somewhat contrary to our knowledge of physics.  Stephen Hawking theorized that black holes are fuzzy in order to preserve the intelligence of matter.  I theorize that black holes (quasars) are the divine means of cleansing corrupted matter.

I have had problems with black holes being outer darkness – they just do not seem to fit nicely into the paradigm.  Recently I have been learning about rogue planets.  Current theory is that much of the “missing matter” in interstellar and intergalactic space are rogue planets.  Especially intergalactic rogue planets would be objects that exist the farthest from any light source.  They are the darkest objects that exist in the darkest regions of our universe.

It is interesting to note that nothing exist without light – we are kind of told that in D&C 88.  I am referring to the notion that there is no existence where there is no kingdom.  My thought is that without light there cannot be a kingdom.  We also know that G-d presides over the outer darkness because it is a place he prepared (created) and therefore, of necessity, there must be some light however so little.

But then this is all just my speculations.  Comment however you wish.

 

The Traveler

[HaggisShuu]

I considered outer darkness to just be total non-existence, makes the most sense to me. According to my own speculation, We are all eternal beings, we have and always will exist in some capacity. Satan is so bitter, because he is one of the only beings in existence who will completely cease to exist at the day of judgement. Not just cast out. Gone. Everyone else - even the wicked, will receive a perfect body in paradise. 
 

I'm sure there is some scripture or quote somewhere that disproves this but this seems like the most merciful outcome. 

[askandanswer]

From my scripture reading yesterday:

Jude 13: Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

My thoughts are 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From my scripture reading yesterday: 

Jude 13: 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

My thoughts are that the outcome of our first interaction with God was the joining of an intelligence, which we provided, with a spirit, which God provided, leading to the creation of a soul. I think that those who reject the Plan of Salvation and everything that God is offering are cast into outder darkness - a black hole - and reduced back to the condition they were in before God came along - the essential components that made them who/what they are a seperated from each other and they go back to being a singular intelligence, unconnected with anything else, awaiting the time when they might once again, in some far off time, be joined to another spirit. I think that perhaps this seperation of intelligence from spirit occurs in a black hole, which seperates everything from everything, and strips matter apart and that eventually, the unconstructured intelligence is released from the black hole in the form of Hawking radiation, making it once again available to be combined with a spirit.

Perhaps a useful analogy is to liken to process to one of those car shredder machines that seperates a car into its component parts so that they are in no way part of the car they once were. After being torn into pieces and seperated into its component parts, the scrap is metal down into something like it originally was before it became a part of a car. In its melted down condition, it is then able to be used for another purpose, with no sense of continuing identity between its previous and new purposes.