Brandon Sanderson goes full woke and betrays gospel values?

[The Folk Prophet]

I put this in the LDS Gospel Discussion because, ultimately, it's about how we should approach these concepts, but if the moderators feel it's better in general discussion, feel free to move it.

Brandon Sanderson's latest book in the Stormlight Archive just came out and, apparently, full woke. He, per the videos I've watched on it, has a prominent gay relationship between two men, which is celebrated and shown as wholesome and good, and he has transgender references in various forms, also promoted as acceptable, normal, and good.

This is in contrast to comments he's made int he past that were supportive of the Proclamation on the Family, and so forth, how he wouldn't write gay characters into his books, and etc., (once again, I've only watched videos by others on the matter so am reporting hearsay, but I'm sure it's correct.)

Well. I dunno. What say ye? Personally, I'm a bit annoyed. And, similar to my feelings about Disney, feel betrayed. I've been a Brandon Sanderson fan. I'm not any more. It's like he's purposefully betraying and spitting in the face of his conservative audience...or trying to convert them to woke views, but if not...then spit in the face. He claims that's not what he's doing. But...it seems clear that is, whatever he says. I returned my unlistened to Audible copy of the latest book, and discontinued listening to the previous book which I was only partway through. (To be fair...I also have seen a lot of reviews saying the next book is terrible, even by those who are unbothered by the woke-ness.)

And I find it sad. And...sadly, common among those who are LDS and become famous.

I guess, in prior views he's expressed in prior decades, he was kind, respectful, and gentle in his points of view on these matters, but stood firmly behind the Family Proclamation and the principles therein. But I guess that wasn't enough. Either he was swayed by the world he lives in, friends, family, publishers, etc., or he was not expressing his true thoughts before. Either way, it's sad.

I hope it doesn't mean he's on he way out. Unfortunately that's how these things often go.

And it's not just the inclusion of the gay and trans characters and storylines that has me thinking what I am. It's his public comments where he's openly stated that he hopes the church disavows the Proclamation on the Family, allows homosexual marriage, and so forth and etc.

Anyhow...I dunno. Thought it would make an interesting discussion at least.

There's a balance to find on these matters. Respect, love, sympathy, etc., are good. But often it seems efforts to do so lead to support, advocacy, and eventual apostasy. (Note: I'm not saying Sanderson is going to leave the church. It won't surprise me if he does. But some of the comments he's made already, in my mind, are apostasy. (Understanding that there's some subjectivity to the idea of what is and isn't "apostasy".))

[The Folk Prophet]

I realized after I posted that I should have called it "gospel values" instead of "LDS values" as we're not supposed to, per the style guide of the church, use "LDS" to refer to the church. But I can't figure out how to edit the title.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I put this in the LDS Gospel Discussion because, ultimately, it's about how we should approach these concepts, but if the moderators feel it's better in general discussion, feel free to move it.

Brandon Sanderson's latest book in the Stormlight Archive just came out and, apparently, full woke. He, per the videos I've watched on it, has a prominent gay relationship between two men, which is celebrated and shown as wholesome and good, and he has transgender references in various forms, also promoted as acceptable, normal, and good.

This is in contrast to comments he's made int he past that were supportive of the Proclamation on the Family, and so forth, how he wouldn't write gay characters into his books, and etc., (once again, I've only watched videos by others on the matter so am reporting hearsay, but I'm sure it's correct.)

Well. I dunno. What say ye? Personally, I'm a bit annoyed. And, similar to my feelings about Disney, feel betrayed. I've been a Brandon Sanderson fan. I'm not any more. It's like he's purposefully betraying and spitting in the face of his conservative audience...or trying to convert them to woke views, but if not...then spit in the face. He claims that's not what he's doing. But...it seems clear that is, whatever he says. I returned my unlistened to Audible copy of the latest book, and discontinued listening to the previous book which I was only partway through. (To be fair...I also have seen a lot of reviews saying the next book is terrible, even by those who are unbothered by the woke-ness.)

And I find it sad. And...sadly, common among those who are LDS and become famous.

I guess, in prior views he's expressed in prior decades, he was kind, respectful, and gentle in his points of view on these matters, but stood firmly behind the Family Proclamation and the principles therein. But I guess that wasn't enough. Either he was swayed by the world he lives in, friends, family, publishers, etc., or he was not expressing his true thoughts before. Either way, it's sad.

I hope it doesn't mean he's on he way out. Unfortunately that's how these things often go.

And it's not just the inclusion of the gay and trans characters and storylines that has me thinking what I am. It's his public comments where he's openly stated that he hopes the church disavows the Proclamation on the Family, allows homosexual marriage, and so forth and etc.

Anyhow...I dunno. Thought it would make an interesting discussion at least.

There's a balance to find on these matters. Respect, love, sympathy, etc., are good. But often it seems efforts to do so lead to support, advocacy, and eventual apostasy. (Note: I'm not saying Sanderson is going to leave the church. It won't surprise me if he does. But some of the comments he's made already, in my mind, are apostasy. (Understanding that there's some subjectivity to the idea of what is and isn't "apostasy".))

As with most Church members (that I've seen) that try to publicly get hip, it’s usually too little, too late, too low quality, etc. to impress the masses and be more than a flash in the pan outside of their home town, and they quickly get kicked to the curb with no erstwhile backer backing them up.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As with most Church members (that I've seen) that try to publicly get hip, it’s usually too little, too late, too low quality, etc. to impress the masses and be more than a flash in the pan outside of their home town, and they quickly get kicked to the curb with no erstwhile backer backing them up.

I don't have the cynicism to think he's trying to get hip. I think he's, legitimately, of those opinions. Not because it's the "cool" thing.

[LDSGator]

18 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As with most Church members (that I've seen) that try to publicly get hip, it’s usually too little, too late, too low quality, etc. to impress the masses and be more than a flash in the pan outside of their home town, and they quickly get kicked to the curb with no erstwhile backer backing them up.

I understand totally what you are saying, but fantasy writers aren’t known for their hipness, and it’ll never be the cool genre. I say that as an obsessive horror fan-another genre for the rejects and outcasts. 

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't have the cynicism to think he's trying to get hip. I think he's, legitimately, of those opinions. Not because it's the "cool" thing.

To be fair, he probably doesn’t need the money unless he’s absolutely terrible with it-blowing it on bad investments and other things. You are probably right, unless he dreams of having critical acclaim 

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't have the cynicism to think he's trying to get hip. I think he's, legitimately, of those opinions. Not because it's the "cool" thing.

This is kind of my point  .... "full woke" already ain't hip no more.

6 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I understand totally what you are saying, but fantasy writers aren’t known for their hipness, and it’ll never be the cool genre. I say that as an obsessive horror fan-another genre for the rejects and outcasts. 

This is kind of my point, also  .... (doesn't impress the masses, only a flash in the pan for their peeps / homies)...

[zil2]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well. I dunno. What say ye?

I haven't read the Stormlight Archive, at all, but I have read several other books (all before, I suspect, his "going woke").  And, IMO, he could not have even written those books, let alone attained the success he has, without a serious gift from God (the likes of which few ever have or ever will receive).  I believe he has let it all go to his head and pride has led him to embrace the ways of the great and spacious building.  It's a tragedy.  He will be left to his own strength until and unless he repents.  To that point:

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

(To be fair...I also have seen a lot of reviews saying the next book is terrible, even by those who are unbothered by the woke-ness.)

 

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

He claims that's not what he's doing.

Well, yeah, can't let go of the audience / income / potential converts.  (Perhaps he has convinced himself that the lies are true à la Korihor.

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This is kind of my point, also  .... (doesn't impress the masses, only a flash in the pan for their peeps / homies)...

Oh okay. 
 

I’m not the biggest fantasy movie/novel guy, but I think Sanderson is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he just changed his mind on the issue naturally and his motives are pure. Goodness knows I’ve done the same on some issues as I’ve aged. 

[The Folk Prophet]

49 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I understand totally what you are saying, but fantasy writers aren’t known for their hipness, and it’ll never be the cool genre. I say that as an obsessive horror fan-another genre for the rejects and outcasts. 

I think you're wrong. That used to be true. But nerds rule the world now. Brandon Sanderson is very "hip". Fantasy is, indeed, in the "cool" genre. Things aren't like they used to be, grandpa.  

[LDSGator]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think you're wrong. That used to be true. But nerds rule the world now. Brandon Sanderson is very "hip". Fantasy is, indeed, in the "cool" genre. Things aren't like they used to be, grandpa.  

 

[The Folk Prophet]

47 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

...I think Sanderson is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he just changed his mind on the issue naturally and his motives are pure.

I think that's likely the case.

But...you know...as the saying goes...the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure "pure" motives have anything to do with the benefit of the doubt. I believe he things he's doing what's right. But as we all know, what we "think" is right and what IS right are often not the same.

I can understand, and even forgive, him inn a way because I think you're right...he's doing what he believes to be right... as he drags other souls to hell, loses his faith in core tenants of the gospel, and enriches his coffers for the praise of the great and spacious building.

And the problem is this (if I may indulge you with a bit of rambling):

I think if one were, in alignment with the gospel, intent on showing solidarity, empathy, and love unfeigned for the gay and trans community in a story, one could, and should, do that. But it would be a story of the struggle, uphold eternal truths, show how characters could overcome, draw sympathy and sorrow from the reader as it showed the sorrow and hurt that the affliction brought, or show the destruction and misery of choosing the natural man. I mean there are lots of ways one could go about it and write a compelling, interesting, empathetic story without pandering to the woke. Instead, Brandon Sanderson has his story show these things as normal, healthy, beautiful, and praiseworthy.

His intentions (empathy, love, understanding) are good. His application of these intentions is flawed, based on falsehoods.

Edited January 11 by The Folk Prophet

[LDSGator]

13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think that's likely the case.

But...you know...as the saying goes...the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure "pure" motives have anything to do with the benefit of the doubt. I believe he things he's doing what's right. But as we all know, what we "think" is right and what IS right are often not the same.

I can understand, and even forgive, him inn a way because I think you're right...he's doing what he believes to be right... as he drags other souls to hell, loses his faith in core tenants of the gospel, and enriches his coffers for the praise of the great and spacious building.

And the problem is this (if I may indulge you with a bit of rambling):

I think if one were, in alignment with the gospel, intent on showing solidarity, empathy, and love unfeigned for the gay and trans community in a story, one could, and should, do that. But it would be a story of the struggle, uphold eternal truths, show how characters could overcome, draw sympathy and sorrow from the reader as it showed the sorrow and hurt that the affliction brought, or show the destruction and misery of choosing the natural man. I mean there are lots of ways one could go about it and write a compelling, interesting, empathetic story without pandering to the woke. Instead, Brandon Sanderson has his story show these things as normal, healthy, beautiful, and praiseworthy.

His intentions (empathy, love, understanding) are good. His application of these intentions is flawed, based on falsehoods.

Does he still teach at BYU?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Oh okay. 
 

I’m not the biggest fantasy movie/novel guy, but I think Sanderson is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he just changed his mind on the issue naturally and his motives are pure. Goodness knows I’ve done the same on some issues as I’ve aged. 

I'm not judging his motives. I don't think I've ever heard of him or his work before, either (well, I may have in passing). I'm sharing my thoughts the actions as described in the OP and how I have seen this play out as Church members react to other accomplished saints in the art/literary/entertainment/blog/etc. spheres that enter similar dynamics.

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think that's likely the case.

But...you know...as the saying goes...the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure "pure" motives have anything to do with the benefit of the doubt. I believe he things he's doing what's right. But as we all know, what we "think" is right and what IS right are often not the same.

I can understand, and even forgive, him inn a way because I think you're right...he's doing what he believes to be right... as he drags other souls to hell, loses his faith in core tenants of the gospel, and enriches his coffers for the praise of the great and spacious building.

And the problem is this (if I may indulge you with a bit of rambling):

I think if one were, in alignment with the gospel, intent on showing solidarity, empathy, and love unfeigned for the gay and trans community in a story, one could, and should, do that. But it would be a story of the struggle, uphold eternal truths, show how characters could overcome, draw sympathy and sorrow from the reader as it showed the sorrow and hurt that the affliction brought, or show the destruction and misery of choosing the natural man. I mean there are lots of ways one could go about it and write a compelling, interesting, empathetic story without pandering to the woke. Instead, Brandon Sanderson has his story show these things as normal, healthy, beautiful, and praiseworthy.

His intentions (empathy, love, understanding) are good. His application of these intentions is flawed, based on falsehoods.

This reaction/assessment is why I think he is more more likely to lose fans than gain new fans among his accustomed circle.

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Brandon Sanderson's latest book in the Stormlight Archive just came out and, apparently, full woke. He, per the videos I've watched on it, has a prominent gay relationship between two men, which is celebrated and shown as wholesome and good, and he has transgender references in various forms, also promoted as acceptable, normal, and good.

I have not yet read the latest volume of Stormlight.  I'm in the middle of reading the final chapter of the Wax & Wayne series (Mistborn, 2nd epoch) in which we are re-introduced to a recurring minor character who is a lesbian (she appears maybe once or twice in each of the books of the 2nd Epoch).  No one seemed to make a big stink about her.

But my daughter has read it, and I asked her about it.  Here's her take on the issue.

• A recurring minor character is gay. 
  • Most of fandom had already gotten wind of that due to minor clues.  And Sanderson actually confirmed it in interviews before he wrote this book.
  • Yes, they could also be attributed to the traits of a "shy boy" or a "bookworm." But Sanderson decided to "out" Renarin.
  • The cousin (Jasna) whom almost all of fandom believe is clearly a lesbian (but not yet outed) is extatic about it.
  • Everyone else was more or less "whatever."
• The trans person consisted of a woman who had a paper stating that she is qualified to fulfill some military functions as if she were a man.  This doesn't seem to be a woke thing, but rather a cultural/planetary thing that is just different than Earth.  Kind of like the covering of the woman's safe hand, or men not reading/writing.

My daughter is just as alert for woke ideology as I am.  And she didn't get the "woke vibe" from her reading.  So, for you to call it "full woke" seems to be quite the over-reaction.

I have no idea what Sanderson's personal feelings are on the topic or political leanings are. I have no idea what public statements Sanderson has made about the Proclamation.  Perhaps you'd show me.

Edited January 11 by Carborendum

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

don't think I've ever heard of him or his work before, either

Same. I remember @The Folk Prophet mentioning him a few times here before and that’s about it. 

 

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

'm sharing my thoughts the actions as described in the OP and how I have seen this play out as Church members react to other accomplished saints in the art/literary/entertainment/blog/etc. spheres that enter similar dynamics.

I get it. 
 

There might be several reasons why people “change” their views like how you described. Maybe they’ve always been “progressive” and now feel they can safely say it because they are no longer in the a community where such views are taboo.

 

Maybe they were conservative and religious because that’s how they grew up and when presented with a larger city they see other lifestyles and change their view accordingly. 
 

He might not want to offend anyone he works with. Ie-if you are in an industry flooded with LGBTQ people (fashion, dance) you might want to keep quiet about your views because you have a family to feed. (Yes, that’s sad. I’m not saying it’s fair or right). 
 

We can’t read his mind, so these are obviously just guesses. 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Does he still teach at BYU?

According to his website, yes.

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I have no idea what Sanderson's personal feelings are on the topic or political leanings are. I have no idea what public statements Sanderson has made about the Proclamation.  Perhaps you'd show me.

https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/ive-heard-you-are-a-practicing-member-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-what-are-your-opinions-on-gay-rights-particularly-in-light-of-the-churchs-controversial-rel/

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, zil2 said:

According to his website, yes.

Can he still teach at BYU even though he opposes the church teaching on sexuality? 

[zil2]

2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Can he still teach at BYU even though he opposes the church teaching on sexuality? 

I guess that depends on what he says when he's interviewed (apparently professors at BYU have to have regular interviews akin to a temple recommend interview, but with additional questions), and what the interviewer thinks of his answers.

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I guess that depends on what he says when he's interviewed (apparently professors at BYU have to have regular interviews akin to a temple recommend interview, but with additional questions), and what the interviewer thinks of his answers.

Back in 2014 I told my SP (a wonderful man btw) I was liberal on social issues. He was no progressive but he didn’t care at all about my personal politics. Granted, this was “just” for a temple recommend, not a teaching job at BYU.  

[LDSGator]

Off topic but that Stake President really was a great guy. I’ve been really blessed to have known some great church leadership. 

Edited January 11 by LDSGator

[Ironhold]

In addition to being an entertainment writer, I've also dabbled in writing fiction. 

I've encountered a number of people who identify as LGBT over the years. Most of these individuals see their identity as a *part* of who they are, and would generally rather be known for the sum total of their being than simply this one single aspect or any other single aspect. Some of them have actually expressed to me their disdain at how a lot of modern content creators are choosing to "represent" the movement, as they feel that the content creators are all too often either not doing it for honest reasons or trying to force stereotypical characters in place as "representation" instead of producing well-rounded and holistic characters who just happen to be LGBT. 

Have I written any openly LGBT characters? No. However, I do admit that if I was working on a series with a large enough ensemble cast it wouldn't be off the table... provided, of course, that the character being LGBT actually serves some sort of purpose beyond just being metaphorical window-dressing and some of the LGBT people I know sign off on the character as being properly holistic and not just stereotypical.

What he's talking about, however, is... more of the same that some of those very same LGBT individuals I know have been complaining about. I don't think that's going to work out the way he thinks it's going to work out. 

[Vort]

My children (all adults now) like Brandon Sanderson's books. I have never read his work, but I know he is on record as rejecting prophetic counsel on homosexuality and appears to be embarrassed by the Church's distinctively non-progressive attitude on such topics. That alone is sufficient to make me profoundly uninterested in what Brother Sanderson has to say on pretty much any topic.

[Vort]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I realized after I posted that I should have called it "gospel values" instead of "LDS values" as we're not supposed to, per the style guide of the church, use "LDS" to refer to the church. But I can't figure out how to edit the title.

LDS values are the values of the Latter-day Saints. I think the usage is perfectly acceptable.