Brandon Sanderson goes full woke and betrays gospel values?

[Just_A_Guy]

32 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Ditto!

I think I'm smart enough to be good at chess...if it wasn't for the darned A.D.D. attention span lack of patience impulsivity things.

In other words...if I wasn't me, I'd be awesome at chess!! I know it!

“. . . And if I had ever learnt, I should have been a true proficient!”

—Lady Catherine de Bourghe

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

“. . . And if I had ever learnt, I should have been a true proficient!”

—Lady Catherine de Bourghe

I don't remember that this quote exists in the novel, but it was a brilliant line in the BBC/A&E adaptation.

Seriously, what a great movie. I have never seen a more faithful (or more entertaining) novel adaptation.

[Carborendum]

26 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't remember that this quote exists in the novel, but it was a brilliant line in the BBC/A&E adaptation.

Apparently, yes.

Quote by Jane Austen: “If you are speaking of music...it is of all sub...”

I don't believe I've ever read a Jane Austen novel.  I just now became conscious of that fact.  I guess I should read some.

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

BYU might be a great academic school. I know absolutely nothing about their academics. But from the “outside” it’s largely considered a religious school that only appeals to LDS.

Maybe some places, but not everywhere.  I work for a global high tech fortune 500 company based out of California, and BYU is one of the places we go for engineering graduates.  Not a single whiff of anything proLDS in the entire process.

[Vort]

6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Maybe some places, but not everywhere.  I work for a global high tech fortune 500 company based out of California, and BYU is one of the places we go for engineering graduates.  Not a single whiff of anything proLDS in the entire process.

I believe BYU is fairly well-known for producing quality engineering students, including computer science "software engineers". Same with the pure sciences, where BYU is strong if not elite (I think math is a strong point at BYU). I'm pretty sure BYU ranks well in placing medical school students, which should only increase when BYU's new medical school comes on line. I understand that BYU's Marriott business program has long been considered top-notch, and I have heard that the various language colleges are generally well-regarded. (When I was an undergrad at BYU in the 1980s, I took a class on Dante's Divine Comedy, which was taught by Madison Sowell, a recognized scholar on Dante.) My BYU-graduate son got into the law school at Chicago, a top-three program nationwide (the top five are Stanford, Yale, Chicago, Harvard, and Columbia), and BYU students are reasonably well-represented in the top law schools overall. BYU's own law school, while not top 14, ranked very well, 23rd in the 2024 rankings.

So on balance, I think BYU's degree programs, both undergrad and graduate, are pretty well-regarded by those who actually know the rankings and what they mean. Academically, a BYU degree is a solid achievement, never an embarrassment, and in some cases is quite impressive to those offering jobs. If BYU is no Stanford or Harvard, it's also no Oral Roberts (and Oral Roberts is a decent university), and is certainly no JoeBob's Auto Body and School of Law, as some have suggested. (Not Gator, but others I have heard disparaging BYU. It's nonsense.)

Edited January 15 by Vort

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Maybe some places, but not everywhere.  I work for a global high tech fortune 500 company based out of California, and BYU is one of the places we go for engineering graduates.  Not a single whiff of anything proLDS in the entire process.

It wasn’t a slam-I’m sure BYU is a fine school.  But, for most of the outside world it’s known more for being a religious school than the quality of it’s graduates. 

[Just_A_Guy]

The story I was told about BYU as a history student there 20 years ago was that BYU’s STEM majors were so rigorous that they tended to have high drop-out rates; and since BYU admin wanted to keep students moving along and have them out in 4 years, their solution had been to have a number of not-obnoxiously-difficult humanities/social sciences programs that could be completed in under 3 years so that the STEM dropouts could switch majors and graduate with a degree in *something*.

Which sort of makes sense—being a Church school and in the wake of the September 6 thing, BYU was never going to get a ton of academic respect in those sorts of fields anyways.  And I think BYU generally wants its degrees to translate into employability and stable income, which—let’s face it—isn’t something that humanities/social sciences degrees have the best track record of doing.  I suppose it makes sense for them to focus on STEM and the professions, even if it means we mathematical dullards are sort of left to our own devices.

Edited January 15 by Just_A_Guy

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The story I was told about BYU as a history student there 20 years ago was that BYU’s STEM majors were so rigorous that they tended to have high drop-out rates; and since BYU admin wanted to keep students moving along and have them out in 4 years, their solution had been to have a number of not-obnoxiously-difficult humanities/social sciences programs that could be completed in under 3 years so that the STEM dropouts could switch majors and graduate with a degree in *something*.

I was apparently at BYU a few years before you.  I was there when the changes were being made.  And we were told a slightly different story.

The purported concern (by the University President) was that students were staying there for more than 4 years.  There were records found of people graduating after 9 years (for a bachelor's).  The joke was that BYU engineering was full of "Peter Parkers" (the eternal science student who never moved on from college).

The curriculum was rigorous because they loaded up the curriculum with more classes than necessary.  So, the University Pres ordered the engineering college to take a look at the bare minimum classes required to satisfy national accreditation requirements for engineering.  And they brought it down to just above 16 cr /sem for an 8 semester schedule.  There was also a clock set from first semester to graduation (paused for missions).

There were people who probably shouldn't have been engineering students. (a close friend was one of them.  He ended up dropping out.  He works at a meat packing plant now. But he's happy.)  But others kept going.  Some took classes year-round to handle the classes at a slower rate while still getting out before the clock ran out.

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

BYU was never going to get a ton of academic respect in those sorts of fields anyways.

Actually, we do.  Not that it is a prestigious school, but that "Mormons are good workers and are usually smarter than the average American" sentiment.  But that was more about "being Mormon" than the school itself.  Still, it wasn't considered a bad school.  And that's perfectly fine.  It was enough for me.  And I've done quite well.

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And I think BYU generally wants its degrees to translate into employability and stable income, which—let’s face it—isn’t something that humanities/social sciences degrees have the best track record of doing.

AMEN!!

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 I suppose it makes sense for them to focus on STEM and the professions, even if it means we mathematical dullards are sort of left to our own devices.

Well, last I checked, the average lawyer makes about as much as the average engineer. And the top 1% of lawyers make about 2x to 3x the top 1% of engineers.  So, it can't be all that bad.

[NeuroTypical]

43 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The purported concern (by the University President) was that students were staying there for more than 4 years.  There were records found of people graduating after 9 years (for a bachelor's).  The joke was that BYU engineering was full of "Peter Parkers" (the eternal science student who never moved on from college).

Another joke (not just told about BYU students) is that older college students are "Peter Pans".  2 versions of this joke.  The first is the child who never wants to grow up.  The second is the old manchild guy in his mid '20's who tries for romantic things with the younger college girls.

30 years ago women's rights were still an argued about thing, and the number of LDS women seeking college degrees was a notable variation from other Christian denominations.  The joke back then was they were all there to get their MRS degree.  If you were a woman seeking a degree in early childhood development, plenty of folks looked down on you as only in college to land a man.  It was rather nasty.  You folks'll have to tell me if it's still a thing.

 

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The first is the child who never wants to grow up. 

I thought that's what it means to be a Latter-day Saint (but in a good way).  The kind of jokes that we consider funny are pretty childish (not necessarily under-the-table).  And we're perfectly fine with that.  

...unless ye be converted and become as little children...

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The second is the old manchild guy in his mid '20's who tries for romantic things with the younger college girls.

I saw that with two students while I was there.

First, a girl from my hometown and I kinda hung out from time-to-time.  She had gone on a couple of dates with a guy in his late 30s.  It turns out that he was a creep.  She told me about the "initial steps" where he took liberties.  And she shut him down.  I honestly don't know what happened to her after that.  I never saw or heard from her again.

Second, there was a guy in my ward when I met my wife.  He was also Asian.  He was in his late 30s.  He was specifically there to find a wife.  He had a job. But he kept taking a single class per year to allow him to rent in BYU housing.  He was actually chasing after my not-yet-wife.

She told me that he was one of the reasons she shied away from me.  My physical features... we looked a lot alike (but I was better-looking  ). 

He really didn't have a lot to offer a young woman.  Not as attractive.  Annoying accent.  Profession was not exactly what an engineer could offer.  And he didn't seem all that intelligent.

I eventually told her how old I was.  And it still stung because I am a somewhat older than my wife, but not nearly as old as the other guy. It was my final year there working on a M.S. and she was a freshman.  So, it worked out in the end.

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The joke back then was they were all there to get their MRS degree.  If you were a woman seeking a degree in early childhood development, plenty of folks looked down on you as only in college to land a man.

I don't know about "being looked down on."   It was simply a fact. 

If you're a man working towards a promising career, you'd want a woman who could be a good mother to your children.  Nothing wrong with that.

Childhood education was a field that could be valuable whether you got married or not.  Teaching gets paid a lot more than what liberals would have you believe.  So, it's win-win. 

I think a lot of people laughed about it.  But I never perceived it as a stigma.

There were, however, a few girls I knew who couldn't care less about their degree or anything else. They were certainly there specifically to get a husband.  Some knew how.  Others did not.

But that was back when I was in school.  Who knows what's going on now.

BTW, my wife was studying biology when I met her.  She eventually got an A.S. while being mother to our 7 children.  And she wants to complete her bachelors as well.

Edited January 15 by Carborendum

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

you were a woman seeking a degree in early childhood development, plenty of folks looked down on you as only in college to land a man.  It was rather nasty.

It is nasty, and people having been saying that about women since the 70’s. My biological mom is a nurse and she told me that people back then always accused nurses of being nurses just so they land a doctor. 

[Ironhold]

On 1/14/2025 at 1:10 PM, LDSGator said:

Is there a demand to teach there? Are people competing for the professor positions? 
 

BYU might be a great academic school. I know absolutely nothing about their academics. But from the “outside” it’s largely considered a religious school that only appeals to LDS. Again, nothing wrong with that. 

The Marriott School of Business has a perennial spot on Bloomberg Business Week's top 40 list when it comes to business schools in the United States, and BYU's animation department is slowly getting attention. 

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

The Marriott School of Business has a perennial spot on Bloomberg Business Week's top 40 list when it comes to business schools in the United States, and BYU's animation department is slowly getting attention. 

I get it. Go Cougars. I graduated from UNH-the only real college in New Hampshire. It’s not Harvard, but it’s not University of Phoenix either.

During my graduate work in English at UNH I can’t remember a BYU professor that had a well known reputation in Shakespeare or Milton. I’m not saying they don’t exist-but they aren’t as well known for that as other colleges. Maybe that is where I get my thoughts about them. 

Now, that said, is Bloomberg still a liberal rag with bias or are they cool with us now? Funny how that changes so quickly. 
 

Whatever else BYU is, its reputation is first and foremost an LDS school. And there’s nothing wrong with that. 

Edited January 16 by LDSGator

[Vort]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

During my graduate work in English at UNH I can’t remember a BYU professor that had a well known reputation in Shakespeare or Milton.

Perhaps you failed to notice that William Shakespeare was a BYU professor.

[Just_A_Guy]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

[1]Actually, we do.  Not that it is a prestigious school, but that "Mormons are good workers and are usually smarter than the average American" sentiment.  But that was more about "being Mormon" than the school itself.  Still, it wasn't considered a bad school.  And that's perfectly fine.  It was enough for me.  And I've done quite well.

[2]Well, last I checked, the average lawyer makes about as much as the average engineer. And the top 1% of lawyers make about 2x to 3x the top 1% of engineers.  So, it can't be all that bad.

1.  To clarify, I meant the BYU humanities programs specifically.  I understand that a lot of its STEM-type programs are very well regarded.  But as a history major who flirted with a postgrad degree and going into academia; I was pretty bluntly told by several history department folks that a BYU BA in history was likely to be a liability if I pursued that career path.

2.  I actually wouldn’t recommend going into law if you didn’t a) completely love/geek out over arcane points of law, b) have *certainty* that you’d be in the top 10% of your law school graduating class (including at least a 170 LSAT), or c) know someone who was prepared to offer you a job on graduating from law school.  The employment situation (at least in Utah) is just too tight; and AI is going to gut the job market (especially transactional practice).  My understanding is that “mean” salary figures for practicing lawyers are goosed by the top 10% making $250K+, while the bottom 40-50% are making under $70K (often, significantly so).

Edited January 16 by Just_A_Guy

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

My understanding is that “mean” salary figures for practicing lawyers are goosed by the top 10% making $250K+, while the bottom 40-50% are making under $70K (often, significantly so).

Wow.  That's like public teacher's salary.  I knew public defenders didn't make much.  But dang.

I believe what you're describing is a double bell curve distribution.  And the second bell curve is so high that it is skewing snapshot data like mean or median.  That's interesting.  

I certainly hope you're on the upper end of things.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Wow.  That's like public teacher's salary.  I knew public defenders didn't make much.  But dang.

I believe what you're describing is a double bell curve distribution.  And the second bell curve is so high that it is skewing snapshot data like mean or median.  That's interesting.  

I certainly hope you're on the upper end of things.

I think I’m slightly upwards of the solid middle at this point, especially for public sector lawyers my state.  But, spending most of your 20s and 30s earning $50K or less plays heck with your retirement planning.  If I live long enough, I will probably retire around 69.  67, if we’re willing to economize.

[Carborendum]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think I’m slightly upwards of the solid middle at this point, especially for public sector lawyers my state.  But, spending most of your 20s and 30s earning $50K or less plays heck with your retirement planning.  If I live long enough, I will probably retire around 69.  67, if we’re willing to economize.

I hope you reach your goals.

[Carborendum]

13 hours ago, Vort said:

Perhaps you failed to notice that William Shakespeare was a BYU professor.

My wife took a class from him. She said that ever since he was a child, he wanted to live up to his name.  So, it was natural for him to become an English professor.

And I swear I'm not making this up: In California, she took a biology class from Professor Charles Darwin.  Unfortunately, "Darwin" was his middle name.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

My wife took a class from him. She said that ever since he was a child, he wanted to live up to his name.  So, it was natural for him to become an English professor.

And I swear I'm not making this up: In California, she took a biology class from Professor Charles Darwin.  Unfortunately, "Darwin" was his middle name.

That’s awesome. Lol. 

[pam]

On 1/11/2025 at 12:54 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I realized after I posted that I should have called it "gospel values" instead of "LDS values" as we're not supposed to, per the style guide of the church, use "LDS" to refer to the church. But I can't figure out how to edit the title.

Fixed it for you.