I want to believe

[the Ogre]

. . . If God has a problem with that, he should not have created me this way . . . do not put this back on G-d. You have agency. If you are incapable of faith, that is your fault and no one else's including The L-rd's.

. . . It does not make sense to me that God would endow me with strong logical reasoning, then expect me to throw it away and blindly give my devotion to Him . . . Whatever. G-d did not say to throw reason away when applying faith. They are not separate. To many people they are parallel never coming into conflict.

. . . No matter how it is phrased, accepting the Gospel for me requires a irrational leap of blind faith which I am not capable of . . . Try it first. Observation is one of the key aspects of reason and science. Being unwilling to believe what the L-rd can do for you and what you can do for H-m is selfish and proof that you are not really interested in true inquiry.

. . . Many people may see me as denying the obvious truths of the Gospel, but from my perspective, there is just as much emperical evidence for Thor or Zeus, yet no one accuses me of denying them. There is a big difference between denying and failing to see any evidence for something. I have not seen or felt anything in support of any God, and until I do, I don't see how any entity could reasonably expect to have my faith . . . I truly love cliched agnosticism. Did you copy and paste this from somewhere?

. . . As always, I will remain open to evidence on either side in any form, but I will no longer actively be trying to rationalize and incorporate my own belief in the church . . . Then you really are not open and in fact have closed your mind to all options. C'mon, refusing all investigation is not agnosticism, but strident ignorance in the face of intelligent argument [not that you'd get any from me . . . you wouldn't listen anyway] and the agreement of many people who you prefer to see as those who are incapable of thought as lofty as your own.

. . . I have heard from a few people that fear is the opposite of faith, but I don't think that is entirely true . . . In this you are correct. Apathy is the opposite of faith. Agnosticism is only another type of faith--faith in the power of reason and in your example, I think there is more evidence of deity then true reason in you posts.

I am glad that you posted on this site. I love faux-reason and pseudo-intelligence. Please, grow-up a little. The L-rd will still be there.

I know you will not like how I have responded to your post, but there is a point when silliness just simply can no longer be ignored.

Aaron the Ogre

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow View Post

. . . If God has a problem with that, he should not have created me this way . . .do not put this back on G-d. You have agency. If you are incapable of faith, that is your fault and no one else's including The L-rd's.

May I just add to this point that it was Satan's idea to control our minds and force us all back to Heaven.

[DigitalShadow]

. . . If God has a problem with that, he should not have created me this way . . . do not put this back on G-d. You have agency. If you are incapable of faith, that is your fault and no one else's including The L-rd's.

Free agency... yes I have the ability to choose, but I can not change the way my brain works and that is what I am talking about.

. . . It does not make sense to me that God would endow me with strong logical reasoning, then expect me to throw it away and blindly give my devotion to Him . . . Whatever. G-d did not say to throw reason away when applying faith. They are not separate. To many people they are parallel never coming into conflict.

Yes, to many people these things never come into conflict, but to me they do and I am only speaking for myself.

. . . Many people may see me as denying the obvious truths of the Gospel, but from my perspective, there is just as much emperical evidence for Thor or Zeus, yet no one accuses me of denying them. There is a big difference between denying and failing to see any evidence for something. I have not seen or felt anything in support of any God, and until I do, I don't see how any entity could reasonably expect to have my faith . . . I truly love cliched agnosticism. Did you copy and paste this from somewhere?

Sorry, that is my own original writing, google it all you like if you don't believe me, and yes, it is an agnostic philosophy, so what? It makes sense to me and that's all I'm saying, if you don't agree with it, fine, I'm not saying you should. Unlike you, I actually respect other people's beliefs and viewpoints.

. . . As always, I will remain open to evidence on either side in any form, but I will no longer actively be trying to rationalize and incorporate my own belief in the church . . . Then you really are not open and in fact have closed your mind to all options. C'mon, refusing all investigation is not agnosticism, but strident ignorance in the face of intelligent argument [not that you'd get any from me . . . you wouldn't listen anyway] and the agreement of many people who you prefer to see as those who are incapable of thought as lofty as your own.

Sorry, I'm not so arrogant as to say that my beliefs are patently obvious and everyone should believe the same way I do. I've left my mind open, as it still is, the only strident ignorance I see here is yours. I've investigated as far as I can with no evidence to go on, you can tell me to have faith till you turn blue in the face, but the fact remains that there are countless other religions out there with the same pitch and equal evidence, so how am I being ignorant or unreasonable?

. . . I have heard from a few people that fear is the opposite of faith, but I don't think that is entirely true . . . In this you are correct. Apathy is the opposite of faith. Agnosticism is only another type of faith--faith in the power of reason and in your example, I think there is more evidence of deity then true reason in you posts.

Yes, I have "faith" in my own reasoning abilities because they have proven to work. By most people's definitions it is not "faith" if you simply have confidence in something that has shown to work before. You say there is evidence of the divine but all the evidence I've heard relies on feelings that I haven't experienced. All I'm saying is that until I have something to go on and personally experience the divine in any way, I don't see any reason to believe one way or the other. That is not "apathy", that is common sense.

So if it makes you feel better to misinterpret my words and convince yourself that I'm simply ignoring the obvious go ahead. The fact remains that I came here with an open mind in search of the truth, and your mind is completely closed to anything but the Gospel.

[the Ogre]

Unlike you, I actually respect other people's beliefs and viewpoints.

Oh well . . .

See its like this, inquiry means being able to investigate, without bias, every possible point of view. Agnostics typically are either afraid to, don't care to, or just like to stick it to the man. Personally, I see agnosticism as a cop-out: "I'm open to faith, but don't expect me to waste my time finding out for sure."

Abandoning the search is one of the best examples of closing down one's mind and beginning the starvation of the soul. I see your declarations as nothing more then trying to stab all those who oppressed you in the past in the eye.

Stab away then, but at the same time remember always it is not G-d who was your personal oppressor. The church is not G-d. It is a bunch of people who for the most part act like a bunch of idiots and would close all their meetings to those that did not fit in with them if the L-rd did not command them to keep the doors open.

The next thing about agnostics is that they look upon all the people who are educated and quite reasonable as delusional and can not see how being religious and conducting life through faith can somehow be possible without surrendering that part of the mind that requires mental agility. Reason is not the opposite of faith, I told you what is: apathy. Instead of saying you don't believe because you are so smart say that you just don't care and that you don't want to waste your time and more people will believe you otherwise you will forever lack credibility by saying "God just made me this way."

How ever, convincing the uber-intelligent of a possible truth they did not discover by themselves through their pride is like convincing a profitable pornographer that what they are doing is wrong.

Good luck and have fun with agnosticism and like I said: Oh well . . .

[HomeAgain]

Thank you to everyone for your responses. However, after much thought, I have come to the conclusion that it is not in my nature to accept anything with unquestioning certainty. If God has a problem with that, he should not have created me this way. It does not make sense to me that God would endow me with strong logical reasoning, then expect me to throw it away and blindly give my devotion to Him. No matter how it is phrased, accepting the Gospel for me requires a irrational leap of blind faith which I am not capable of. I realize that other people have had strong personal experiences to reinforce their belief and I'm very happy for everyone who simply "knows" the truth, but it's simply not for me.

Many people may see me as denying the obvious truths of the Gospel, but from my perspective, there is just as much emperical evidence for Thor or Zeus, yet no one accuses me of denying them. There is a big difference between denying and failing to see any evidence for something. I have not seen or felt anything in support of any God, and until I do, I don't see how any entity could reasonably expect to have my faith.

As always, I will remain open to evidence on either side in any form, but I will no longer actively be trying to rationalize and incorporate my own belief in the church. I have heard from a few people that fear is the opposite of faith, but I don't think that is entirely true. Uncertainty is the opposite of faith, and what becomes of that is up to you. I am perfectly content with not knowing, and even if I "knew" God to exist, I don't believe I would live my life any differently. I do what I feel is right because I have been fortunate enough to be allowed to do so.

Thank you again to everyone, I've enjoyed our discussions. Nothing here is meant to offend, I just wanted to offer some parting words before agreeing to disagree and going our seperate ways.

Thanks for hanging out and sharing your views, DS. You sound like a really cool person. It's nice that you were open to hearing all these wild views about faith and such. That points to your serious and inquiring nature. In the end, you're right about the irrationality of it all -- and that irrationality makes it so hard to believe. Why would any rational human being believe in things they can't see?? Why not believe in a pink unicorn in the sky? But for me, believing in God is kind of like falling in love. There's not much rationality about love either, other than it tends to make our lives richer.

All the best!

[DigitalShadow]

See its like this, inquiry means being able to investigate, without bias, every possible point of view. Agnostics typically are either afraid to, don't care to, or just like to stick it to the man. Personally, I see agnosticism as a cop-out: "I'm open to faith, but don't expect me to waste my time finding out for sure."

Hey, I can make absurd generalizations about viewpoints I don't understand too, just watch. I see religion as a cop-out: "I don't want to have to think and investigate the truth for myself so I'll take everyone else's word for it and blindly put my faith in this one book ignoring all the others"

Abandoning the search is one of the best examples of closing down one's mind and beginning the starvation of the soul. I see your declarations as nothing more then trying to stab all those who oppressed you in the past in the eye.

Stab away then, but at the same time remember always it is not G-d who was your personal oppressor. The church is not G-d. It is a bunch of people who for the most part act like a bunch of idiots and would close all their meetings to those that did not fit in with them if the L-rd did not command them to keep the doors open.

I'm always in search of the truth, and I never viewed anyone as oppressing me. I have no idea what your talking about, but go on. I'm patiently awaiting evidence, a feeling, or anything for that matter to urge me to continue my search again in whatever direction that takes me.

The next thing about agnostics is that they look upon all the people who are educated and quite reasonable as delusional and can not see how being religious and conducting life through faith can somehow be possible without surrendering that part of the mind that requires mental agility. Reason is not the opposite of faith, I told you what is: apathy. Instead of saying you don't believe because you are so smart say that you just don't care and that you don't want to waste your time and more people will believe you otherwise you will forever lack credibility by saying "God just made me this way."

I don't presume to judge anyone, you are the only one judging here. I'm simply saying that I haven't seen or felt any evidence, why is that so hard for you to understand? You can't tell me what I've seen or felt, just as I can't tell you what you've seen or felt.

How ever, convincing the uber-intelligent of a possible truth they did not discover by themselves through their pride is like convincing a profitable pornographer that what they are doing is wrong.

Good luck and have fun with agnosticism and like I said: Oh well . . .

This is not a matter of pride. I gladly admit how little I know of the infinite universe, but then again I am not the one claiming to know the only truth.

[DigitalShadow]

Thanks for hanging out and sharing your views, DS. You sound like a really cool person. It's nice that you were open to hearing all these wild views about faith and such. That points to your serious and inquiring nature. In the end, you're right about the irrationality of it all -- and that irrationality makes it so hard to believe. Why would any rational human being believe in things they can't see?? Why not believe in a pink unicorn in the sky? But for me, believing in God is kind of like falling in love. There's not much rationality about love either, other than it tends to make our lives richer.

All the best!

The pleasure was all mine. I really enjoy hanging out with people that have different viewpoints, I usually find that I learn more that way and I can honestly say I've learned a lot here and enjoyed the time spent.

All the best to you as well!

[the Ogre]

DS:

You are a great person and I appreciate the dialogue we are having. It has been some fun, but I warn you I can never be convinced of anything other than philosophical-agnosticism (there really is no evidence of anything there other than the smell).

I hope you are having as much fun writing your comments as I am in reading them.

Aaron the Ogre

Hey, I can make absurd generalizations about viewpoints I don't understand too, just watch. I see religion as a cop-out: "I don't want to have to think and investigate the truth for myself so I'll take everyone else's word for it and blindly put my faith in this one book ignoring all the others" . . . See! You are beginning to discover the path to truth. Do not believe a word I say, but believe G-d's. Every person on this site (with the exception of El, T, PC, and S) is a nut case and I am happily the fattest one.

Now that you see the path to truth, you have to be open to pursue it and you will never be able to do so until you surrender this need for second-hand witnesses. Get a first-hand witness. The world now always relies on precedent, but with G-d that reliance is dangerous.

Many supposing witnesses are self-serving ding-dongs (and thus my animosity for Nehorish CES personnel).

. . . I'm always in search of the truth, and I never viewed anyone as oppressing me. I have no idea what your talking about, but go on . . . Great, I'm glad I'm mistaken. I'm patiently awaiting evidence, a feeling, or anything for that matter to urge me to continue my search again in whatever direction that takes me . . . You will never get any of that from me. Get it yourself. You are capable. Never deny what you can do.

. . . I don't presume to judge anyone, you are the only one judging here . . . Think so? K. "Oh well . . . " I'm simply saying that I haven't seen or felt any evidence, why is that so hard for you to understand? It's not, but then many who have faith or pray for it have not either, but then they are not blaming G-d for that failure and I hope they are also not blaming themselves, that would be equally aggregious. You can't tell me what I've seen or felt, just as I can't tell you what you've seen or felt . . . Right now I'm feeling the need to go to Jason's Deli and getting one of their yummy Reubens.

This is not a matter of pride. I gladly admit how little I know of the infinite universe, but then again I am not the one claiming to know the only truth. I don't know the Tr-th (I wonder if H- is a Giant's fan--I know H- loves the Jazz), I only have faith in H-m.

DS: Have fun.

[prisonchaplain]

Digital, I'll explain how faith came to me. You will see a fair amount of logic, imho, but also note how faith comes into play.

At the age of 10 I'm invited to church and hear the message:

1. There is a God who made the universe and He loves you.

2. Your life is a mix of good and bad, and you must ultimately make the bad right.

3. If you confess that this is true, through God's Son, Jesus, you can be made right with God--and He will help you to live right--not just today, but forever.

4. I sense that these teachings are true, and I pray for God to forgive me and empower me to live right.

5. He does, and I continue to live my life with a sense of God's presence.

There is no way I can prove that God is real. For every "God experience" I've had, a non-theistic explanation could be offered. But, having walked with the sense of God's presence for the last 34 years, those secular explanations don't seem as logical.

Some of the responses you have gotten are from people who see you as trying to explain God away. Other realize you simply have not walked with the sense of God in your life, and so it may seem to you that all the God talk here is more an explaining away of mere circumstances or consequences of life.

I would simply suggest some questions you might considering wrestling with:

1. Can God be?

2. If so, what would He most likely be like?

3. Are there more than one?

4. Would He try to interact with a few of his creation, or would He want to express himself to all peoples?

5. Is He good or bad? Does He want to strengthen us, or have us to serve him?

If you find that the search is worth continuing, I would suggest you first read Genesis--the first book of the Bible. It is Scripture that is shared by Christians of all stripes, Muslims, and Jews. Don't just read it to pick at the science or history of it. See if it is believable that God would want to be involved in his creation like Moses describes it.

I wish you well.

[the Ogre]

PC:

You are a total stud.

1. Can God be?

2. If so, what would He most likely be like?

3. Are there more than one?

4. Would He try to interact with a few of his creation, or would He want to express himself to all peoples?

5. Is He good or bad? Does He want to strengthen us, or have us to serve him?

All I would add to this is that this is a trek you have to make alone and that all the rhetoric in the world will not help.

I love science, but I love the L-rd more. I would like to state though that G-d and science are not interdependent nor are the two mutually exclusive (dealing with the folks [particularly the ones who have not released themselves from their missions and grown up a little] at church might be however), but what world understands of either means to not make absolutist statements about either other than to say it is possible to understand both given time, intellectual, and spiritual investments and to stick with it never giving in to what one person or the other says unless it is G-d speaking to you and then be prepared for it.

Everything else (and all the opinions on the matter including mine) is a waste of time.

[DigitalShadow]

Hey, I can make absurd generalizations about viewpoints I don't understand too, just watch. I see religion as a cop-out: "I don't want to have to think and investigate the truth for myself so I'll take everyone else's word for it and blindly put my faith in this one book ignoring all the others" . . . See! You are beginning to discover the path to truth. Do not believe a word I say, but believe G-d's. Every person on this site (with the exception of El, T, PC, and S) is a nut case and I am happily the fattest one.

Now that you see the path to truth, you have to be open to pursue it and you will never be able to do so until you surrender this need for second-hand witnesses. Get a first-hand witness. The world now always relies on precedent, but with G-d that reliance is dangerous.

Many supposing witnesses are self-serving ding-dongs (and thus my animosity for Nehorish CES personnel).

I do believe every word that God says, but He has never talked to me, hence my current situation. People say that the Bible is the word of God, but that's just the word of people, God has not told me himself that it is his word so until then I'm justifiably skeptical since there are many works people claim to be the word of God, many of which conflict with each other.

. . . I'm always in search of the truth, and I never viewed anyone as oppressing me. I have no idea what your talking about, but go on . . . Great, I'm glad I'm mistaken. I'm patiently awaiting evidence, a feeling, or anything for that matter to urge me to continue my search again in whatever direction that takes me . . . You will never get any of that from me. Get it yourself. You are capable. Never deny what you can do.

Glad to see that you're starting to understand my viewpoint. No offense but I wasn't looking for answers from you. You just seemed to have a misunderstanding of my viewpoint that I wanted to correct.

. . . I don't presume to judge anyone, you are the only one judging here . . . Think so? K. "Oh well . . . " I'm simply saying that I haven't seen or felt any evidence, why is that so hard for you to understand? It's not, but then many who have faith or pray for it have not either, but then they are not blaming G-d for that failure and I hope they are also not blaming themselves, that would be equally aggregious. You can't tell me what I've seen or felt, just as I can't tell you what you've seen or felt . . . Right now I'm feeling the need to go to Jason's Deli and getting one of their yummy Reubens.

I'm not "blaming" God for anything, I was simply commenting on the logical paradox of God demanding faith and devotion while at the same time providing me (me personally, not talking about other people) with no evidence for his existance and endowing me with logical reasoning skills.

(eewww... Reubens are gross)

This is not a matter of pride. I gladly admit how little I know of the infinite universe, but then again I am not the one claiming to know the only truth. I don't know the Tr-th (I wonder if H- is a Giant's fan--I know H- loves the Jazz), I only have faith in H-m.

If you're not claiming to know the Truth, then you should have no issue with my personal conclusion that there is no evidence for it.

I do hope you're truly having fun as well, I just worried that maybe you were taking my viewpoint a bit too personally. I always enjoy a good discussion, if not, it would be rather silly of me to persist in it.

[the Ogre]

Glad to see that you're starting to understand my viewpoint. No offense but I wasn't looking for answers from you . . . Then why are you posting or are you really just an iTroll? You just seemed to have a misunderstanding of my viewpoint that I wanted to correct . . . Trust me there no misunderstandings, agnostics are dime-a-dozen. Having no belief is boring.

I'm not "blaming" God for anything BTW, you did (denying it is weak), I was simply commenting on the logical paradox of God demanding faith and devotion while at the same time providing me (me personally, not talking about other people) with no evidence for his existance and endowing me with logical reasoning skills . . . We're talking about faith, not knowledge, and so it is not a logical paradox.

(eewww... Reubens are gross Well at least you can take a position on one thing)

If you're not claiming to know the Truth, then you should have no issue with my personal conclusion that there is no evidence for it . . . I don't. But are you seeking truth or actuality? Truth is different for many people. Communism is a truth. Feminism is a truth. The possibility of historicity is a truth. Evolution is a truth. Rhetoric is loaded with it. Do you know what you are looking for? PC gave you some good advice, from an honest man, about seeking it, but if you are not interested in it, be honest and accept the apathy/stick-it-to-the-man natural to agnosticism becoming a socially constructed little tool.

I do hope you're truly having fun as well, I just worried that maybe you were taking my viewpoint a bit too personally. I always enjoy a good discussion, if not, it would be rather silly of me to persist in it.

See we can mock each other all day and come to nothing. You are on this site, that means I get to post to your comments. If I think you are taking the easy path when the harder one is more rewarding it is my prerogative to point it out, just like it is for you to think that all I am is just another one of those religious zealots like hemi.

One of the things that has always bugged me about agnostics too is that there have been more people bearing witness to the existence of G-d then those who deny them and yet they simply ignore those witnesses. That is of course understandable, but they never take the search to the M-n in the way H- requires.

I have made my trek up the mountain and I have my witness, but for you they are only so many pearls before the human herd of swine. You just have refused the climb to stay safe in the sheltered existence of intellectualism. I hang-out in that camp to, know their value, but I will never deny the value of faith. What I find interesting is the insistence on the binary intellectualism and being religious. I don't think it is an either or question, but so many think it is. The problem with the questions of an agnostic is that they always focus on the diversions instead of the real meat like your thread about evolution.

[DigitalShadow]

Some of the responses you have gotten are from people who see you as trying to explain God away. Other realize you simply have not walked with the sense of God in your life, and so it may seem to you that all the God talk here is more an explaining away of mere circumstances or consequences of life.

That sums up my experiences here quite nicely, I do believe you understand where I'm coming from perhaps better than any religious person I've talked to (both on the forum or in real life).

I would simply suggest some questions you might considering wrestling with:

1. Can God be?

2. If so, what would He most likely be like?

3. Are there more than one?

4. Would He try to interact with a few of his creation, or would He want to express himself to all peoples?

5. Is He good or bad? Does He want to strengthen us, or have us to serve him?

Interestingly enough, I have wrestled with all of those questions before and that is partly why I am here. I don't claim to know the answers, but here's my opinions on them so far:

1. Can God be?

It is a definite possibility, I've always felt that way.

2. If so, what would He most likely be like?

If God were to exist, I think he would most likely be the initial creator of all the matter in the universe and the complex set of rules that seems to govern it that are still not fully understood.

3. Are there more than one?

There quite possibly could be.

4. Would He try to interact with a few of his creation, or would He want to express himself to all peoples?

It could be that all of reality as we know it is God's great experiment and like any good scientist, He is not interfering. It could also be that we are his loving creation held special throughout all the universe and he watches over us. I think either is possible, but there's more evidence for the former.

5. Is He good or bad? Does He want to strengthen us, or have us to serve him?

Given that most people view God as omnipotent, if He intended to have us serve Him, I don't think he would have much trouble with that. Given that we are not all slaves of God, it stands to reason that if He were to exist, and also if He were to interfere, it would be in the name of strenghthening us.

[DigitalShadow]

Glad to see that you're starting to understand my viewpoint. No offense but I wasn't looking for answers from you . . . Then why are you posting or are you really just an iTroll? You just seemed to have a misunderstanding of my viewpoint that I wanted to correct . . . Trust me there no misunderstandings, agnostics are dime-a-dozen. Having no belief is boring.

You weren't looking for answers from me either, does that make you a troll? I was just trying to explain something to you that you obviously don't want to hear. You say you understand agnostics, but your statements continually prove that you don't. If I were to make inaccurate statements about your belief, are you saying you wouldn't try to correct my view on the LDS faith?

I'm not "blaming" God for anything BTW, you did (denying it is weak), I was simply commenting on the logical paradox of God demanding faith and devotion while at the same time providing me (me personally, not talking about other people) with no evidence for his existance and endowing me with logical reasoning skills . . . We're talking about faith, not knowledge, and so it is not a logical paradox.

(eewww... Reubens are gross Well at least you can take a position on one thing)

Faith exists outside of logic. You were talking about faith, I was commenting the logical paradox. It's still a paradox, we're just talking about different things.

If you're not claiming to know the Truth, then you should have no issue with my personal conclusion that there is no evidence for it . . . I don't. But are you seeking truth or actuality? Truth is different for many people. Communism is a truth. Feminism is a truth. The possibility of historicity is a truth. Evolution is a truth. Rhetoric is loaded with it. Do you know what you are looking for? PC gave you some good advice, from an honest man, about seeking it, but if you are not interested in it, be honest and accept the apathy/stick-it-to-the-man natural to agnosticism becoming a socially constructed little tool.

I am actually seeking the truth and I am interested in PC's advice, in fact I think it's the best advice I've received in a long while and I thanked him for it. I just hadn't seen it yet because I was still replying to your post.

See we can mock each other all day and come to nothing.

That coule be true, but it doesn't make this any less fun

One of the things that has always bugged me about agnostics too is that there have been more people bearing witness to the existence of G-d then those who deny them and yet they simply ignore those witnesses. That is of course understandable, but they never take the search to the M-n in the way H- requires

.

And one of the things that has always bugged me about the faithful is that they never acept atheism/agnosticism as a valid point of view. Yes there are many people bearing witness to the existance of God, but so many of them bear witness to different Gods with conflicting agendas. I'm not denying that they felt something or even that it was something of the divine, I'm just understandably skeptical until I feel such things for myself.

I have made my trek up the mountain and I have my witness, but for you they are only so many pearls before the human herd of swine. You just have refused the climb to stay safe in the sheltered existence of intellectualism. I hang-out in that camp to, know their value, but I will never deny the value of faith. What I find interesting is the insistence on the binary intellectualism and being religious. I don't think it is an either or question, but so many think it is. The problem with the questions of an agnostic is that they always focus on the diversions instead of the real meat like your thread about evolution.

More accurately, I climbed up the mountain myself as well, looked around, didn't feel anything special so I went back down. Maybe I climbed the wrong mountain, but it certainly wasn't from lack of effort.

[the Ogre]

More accurately, I climbed up the mountain myself as well, looked around, didn't feel anything special so I went back down. Maybe I climbed the wrong mountain, but it certainly wasn't from lack of effort.

Think so dude? All I can say is climb and then climb some more. Personally, I would wait for the snow to melt off. The mountains seen through my windows are loaded up. BTW, I'm not a troll: OGRE OGRE OGRE. Big green and smelly and a huge Utah Jazz fan.

Lovingly,

Aaron the Ogre:D

[DigitalShadow]

Think so dude? All I can say is climb and then climb some more. Personally, I would wait for the snow to melt off. The mountains seen through my windows are loaded up. BTW, I'm not a troll: OGRE OGRE OGRE. Big green and smelly and a huge Utah Jazz fan.

Lovingly,

Aaron the Ogre:D

Yeah, it was starting to melt off too until that snow a few days ago. Maybe I'll wait till summer for further adventures.

Seriously though, in my original post that started this entertaining round of textual sparring, I only meant to say that I was going to stop pestering people around here in an effort to rationalize religion as I have found out that the first step doesn't have to be rational. I was not saying that I'm completely closing my mind/heart to the concept. Besides, my wife is LDS and I live in this strange land called Utah, so it's not like I can simply ignore religion completely.

[Misshalfway]

Thank you to everyone for your responses. However, after much thought, I have come to the conclusion that it is not in my nature to accept anything with unquestioning certainty. If God has a problem with that, he should not have created me this way. It does not make sense to me that God would endow me with strong logical reasoning, then expect me to throw it away and blindly give my devotion to Him. No matter how it is phrased, accepting the Gospel for me requires a irrational leap of blind faith which I am not capable of. I realize that other people have had strong personal experiences to reinforce their belief and I'm very happy for everyone who simply "knows" the truth, but it's simply not for me.

Many people may see me as denying the obvious truths of the Gospel, but from my perspective, there is just as much emperical evidence for Thor or Zeus, yet no one accuses me of denying them. There is a big difference between denying and failing to see any evidence for something. I have not seen or felt anything in support of any God, and until I do, I don't see how any entity could reasonably expect to have my faith.

As always, I will remain open to evidence on either side in any form, but I will no longer actively be trying to rationalize and incorporate my own belief in the church. I have heard from a few people that fear is the opposite of faith, but I don't think that is entirely true. Uncertainty is the opposite of faith, and what becomes of that is up to you. I am perfectly content with not knowing, and even if I "knew" God to exist, I don't believe I would live my life any differently. I do what I feel is right because I have been fortunate enough to be allowed to do so.

Thank you again to everyone, I've enjoyed our discussions. Nothing here is meant to offend, I just wanted to offer some parting words before agreeing to disagree and going our seperate ways.

I like how you say that you aren't denying anything. You just haven't felt it. And you can't lie and say you have. I get that. The fact that you haven't felt the existence of a God doesn't really bother me. These things take time. I have experienced stretches of time when I didn't feel the existence of a God either. You sound like a moral individual trying to live a good life. That is admirable. And because I do believe in a God, I do believe that perhaps he did create you exactly the way you are. You certainly have tremendous strength in areas that are not my strengths. I appreciate that. I wonder if that is part of the experience here on earth. To be given so much of something.... and then be asked to give it up or to be put in a position where you can't use your strengths and then see what you do with that circumstance. Like the rich man in the New Testament who came to the Lord asking what righteousness he could do more and the Lord told him to sell everything he had and he went away sad. He couldn't let go of all that he knew and all that defined who he was. I find myself in situations similar. Just not about money. But I find that it is in those moments of stretching that has help create faith in me and has helped me to increase my faith. They, along with other experiences of my own personal seeking, that have taught me that God can do more with my life than I can. Mind you, they are not necessarily my favorite experiences because I do have a fondness for the "known", but they are some of my most cherished experiences just the same.

Maybe I am totally wrong and maybe don't know enough about you beyond the little bit you write. But I wonder if God didn't give you all of your tremendous ability to see and understand science and logic and sense - only to ask you to abandon it and try something completely out of your comfort zone just to stretch you..... try you..... push you.... and invite you. Where else is dependence and trust in the Lord better established? It doesn't usually come when everything is familiar and comfortable and easy.

I offer the idea.... not as a sermon..... just as ideas and experience that has meant more to my growth than any experience with this "known" physical, measurable world.

In any case, if you do indeed choose to move on, I have appreciated reading this conversation. It has been very interesting. And good luck and best wishes to you.

[the Ogre]

Yeah, it was starting to melt off too until that snow a few days ago. Maybe I'll wait till summer for further adventures.

Seriously though, in my original post that started this entertaining round of textual sparring, I only meant to say that I was going to stop pestering people around here in an effort to rationalize religion as I have found out that the first step doesn't have to be rational. I was not saying that I'm completely closing my mind/heart to the concept. Besides, my wife is LDS and I live in this strange land called Utah, so it's not like I can simply ignore religion completely.

What I want to do is irrationalize religion. Reason is a social construct and as such natural men we are only a giant herd/gaggle/pride of social apes. It is time to grow up as a species, a society, a people (by this I mean Mormons), and as individuals.

I am glad you are not going to completely close your heart/mind to religion. I think you need to open your soul though. It is there and it needs an education as well.

I live in Orem and this is a strange land (my mom says I need to move back to Provo where the church is not so weird).

[DigitalShadow]

I like how you say that you aren't denying anything. You just haven't felt it. And you can't lie and say you have. I get that. The fact that you haven't felt the existence of a God doesn't really bother me. These things take time. I have experienced stretches of time when I didn't feel the existence of a God either. You sound like a moral individual trying to live a good life. That is admirable. And because I do believe in a God, I do believe that perhaps he did create you exactly the way you are. You certainly have tremendous strength in areas that are not my strengths. I appreciate that. I wonder if that is part of the experience here on earth. To be given so much of something.... and then be asked to give it up or to be put in a position where you can't use your strengths and then see what you do with that circumstance. Like the rich man in the New Testament who came to the Lord asking what righteousness he could do more and the Lord told him to sell everything he had and he went away sad. He couldn't let go of all that he knew and all that defined who he was. I find myself in situations similar. Just not about money. But I find that it is in those moments of stretching that has help create faith in me and has helped me to increase my faith. They, along with other experiences of my own personal seeking, that have taught me that God can do more with my life than I can. Mind you, they are not necessarily my favorite experiences because I do have a fondness for the "known", but they are some of my most cherished experiences just the same.

Maybe I am totally wrong and maybe don't know enough about you beyond the little bit you write. But I wonder if God didn't give you all of your tremendous ability to see and understand science and logic and sense - only to ask you to abandon it and try something completely out of your comfort zone just to stretch you..... try you..... push you.... and invite you. Where else is dependence and trust in the Lord better established? It doesn't usually come when everything is familiar and comfortable and easy.

I offer the idea.... not as a sermon..... just as ideas and experience that has meant more to my growth than any experience with this "known" physical, measurable world.

In any case, if you do indeed choose to move on, I have appreciated reading this conversation. It has been very interesting. And good luck and best wishes to you.

Thank you for the idea. I've never really thought of it that way before. I'm not sure it changes anything for me right now, but it certainly gives me something to think about, and I do appreciate it.

[Misshalfway]

What I want to do is irrationalize religion. Reason is a social construct and as such natural men we are only a giant herd/gaggle/pride of social apes. It is time to grow up as a species, a society, a people (by this I mean Mormons), and as individuals.

I am glad you are not going to completely close your heart/mind to religion. I think you need to open your soul though. It is there and it needs an education as well.

I live in Orem and this is a strange land (my mom says I need to move back to Provo where the church is not so weird).

Hey! I grew up in Orem. You knocking my hometown? (a poke and a tease)

[DigitalShadow]

What I want to do is irrationalize religion. Reason is a social construct and as such natural men we are only a giant herd/gaggle/pride of social apes. It is time to grow up as a species, a society, a people (by this I mean Mormons), and as individuals.

I am glad you are not going to completely close your heart/mind to religion. I think you need to open your soul though. It is there and it needs an education as well.

I live in Orem and this is a strange land (my mom says I need to move back to Provo where the church is not so weird).

Perhaps I'm misreading your post so please correct me if I am, but are you suggesting we abandon reason? I've always thought that it was our reason that allows us to rise above being a mindless pack of animals, not the opposite. It keeps us from simply believing everything that we hear as truth and alows us to distinguish for ourselves what we accept as truth and what to ignore.

BTW, we live in Salt Lake City now, but my wife lived in Orem and says the same about the strange people :)

[the Ogre]

Perhaps I'm misreading your post so please correct me if I am, but are you suggesting we abandon reason? I've always thought that it was our reason that allows us to rise above being a mindless pack of animals, not the opposite. It keeps us from simply believing everything that we hear as truth and alows us to distinguish for ourselves what we accept as truth and what to ignore.

BTW, we live in Salt Lake City now, but my wife lived in Orem and says the same about the strange people :)

Keep in mind, this is my belief: reason is a social construct just as philosphy is. Both reason and philosophy have evolved with time and so looks enticing. I feel that both overly complicate everything.

Now there is a time and a place for both reason and philosophy and that is when dealing with anything that originates with humans. That is what makes religion so hard to work with. So much of modern religion is actually the creation of men and the societies we reside in. That is why I espouse the concept of getting a first-hand witness from the S-vior instead of listening to the philosophies of men (theology is no more than a specialized field of philosophy and as such is subject to reason and why I adopt the method of investigation called philosophic-agnosticism because there is no way to know if any philosophic/theologic position can be true). Only the L-rd can convince us of his truthfulness instead of the truthiness of modern religion. Until you have taken the time to investigate the L-rd in the way H- requires (reading the scriptures -- I recommend the Book of Mormon; meditation; and prayer) instead of going to other men for insight. I know the arguments about scripture, but again they are only the words of other men.

By being irrational (the opposite if human rationality), ignoring philosophy, and casting aside precedent can we begin to understand G-d. Why do you think the L-rd said to be as little children? We must be mature that is true, but we also must seek the naivete that children have when dealing with the S-vior.

When you deal with other men, it is smart to be as wise as snakes, or otherwise you get hurt, but when dealing with a person who wants to do no harm to you, it is good to reciprocate and do not doubt H-s goodness.

So to begin: get a Book of Mormon and just read, but ignore all outside commentary unless it comes the input the L-rd would give you. If you have questions, ask, but then also ask the L-rd and compare your feelings.

Once you get to know what it is the L-rd has to say, can you then begin to see the value of both rationality and irrationality. Both are important. You can not go through life thinking one is more important than the other or you will get caught with only one tool that does not always work. What is more important, the Spirit of G-d will be there to guide you and you will be ever better prepared for the oscillations and just plain evil in life and the society of humans.

[Guest tomk]

First a let me give people who may not have seen my other threads a quick summary of my situation: I am agnostic, my wife (of just over a year) is LDS, I usually go to church with her, and I've been curious about the church.

Next, I would like to apologize for brining this up again, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, it's just that this subject is a strong barrier in my acceptance of the gospel and so I figured it would be best to talk to members of the church about it. I've already talked to our Bishop about it, I have a lot of respect for him and enjoy talking with him, but he admittedly has little understanding of scientific principles.

Now I would like to present what is troubling me about joining the church:

-There is overwhelming scientific evidence not only for evolution, but that evolution is the origin of our species.

-The church has not explicitly stated their view on the theory of evolution but the plan of salvation requires the story of Adam and Eve to be accurate.

-If evolution is the origin of our species, it would be a slow process over many thousands of years and there wouldn't be a specific point where you could say the first two humans were born. The gene pool of our ancestors would just grow closer and closer to what we see in modern humans. I'm not sure how this can be reconciled with Adam and Eve.

The usual answer I get is that God does not reveal everything to us and that I should pray about the matter and it will be resolved. But this has yet to work for me, and I don't know if I could disregard a large amount of scientific evidence to believe something with no evidence. People tell me to have faith, but how can it be anything other the blind faith to believe in something that you've seen evidence to the contrary but never seen or felt evidence for?

I also worry that maybe I am just not cut out for religion in general, as other people don't seem to have problems with faith. I never gave my wife the expectation that I would convert, but I know she has the hope that I will and I feel like I'm letting her down since my brain can't seem to accept the church. It's getting to the point where I don't want to go to church with her anymore because I feel hypocritical since she teaches some of the primary kids and I usually sit in with her. I don't think the kids know that I'm not a member, I've never lied to them and said I'm a member but I've never told them I'm not a member as I think it might confuse them and bring up a lot of questions.

I don't know what kind of answers I'm looking for here or even if anyone will understand where I'm coming from. Maybe I just needed to get this all out in the open even if it is anonymously through a forum, but I do appreciate that many people of this forum have welcomed me and put up with my ramblings in a civil manner, I think it says a lot about the church.

Having been a life-long member, then inactive for about a decade, then recently returned to full activity, I think I can understand some of what you are feeling.

I don't have any answers for you. The path back home to Heavenly Father is so unique to each individual that only personal revelation (Christ speaking to you) can get you there. This means you need to have a personal relationship with Christ.

I don't have any hang-ups about the doctrine of evolution. I can't say WHY I don't have any hang-ups about it. I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent. To be honest, I don't really think the problem is evolution vs creationism.

God has put us here on earth, and because of the Fall, we exist in a world where everything around us seems to be pulling us away from God, either in not believing in Him AT ALL, or believing in Him but having corrupted thinking about how He really is.

In this existence -- it is easy NOT to believe. It is EASY to lose faith. There are 100,000 reasons NOT to believe.

I read once that there is a VEIL in place over our memory. We don't remember our former life in the presence of God.

I have also read that there is no veil over our FEELINGS. This is why, when God speaks to us, He uses our feelings much of the time. We FEEL that something is right, or we FEEL that something is wrong. Sometimes we are to choose between TWO GOOD THINGS. Sometimes the Lord leaves it up to us. Sometimes the Lord definitely has a preference.

What you choose to believe, and what you choose to let keep you from doing what you feel is right -- that is your choice. YOURS! God will not interfere. If you ask Him in faith, believing that you will receive, He will answer. But you have to be willing to accept that answer and follow it fearlessly. It's not easy, man. It is a test!

Good luck,

Tom

[DigitalShadow]

Keep in mind, this is my belief: reason is a social construct just as philosphy is. Both reason and philosophy have evolved with time and so looks enticing. I feel that both overly complicate everything.

Now there is a time and a place for both reason and philosophy and that is when dealing with anything that originates with humans. That is what makes religion so hard to work with. So much of modern religion is actually the creation of men and the societies we reside in. That is why I espouse the concept of getting a first-hand witness from the S-vior instead of listening to the philosophies of men (theology is no more than a specialized field of philosophy and as such is subject to reason and why I adopt the method of investigation called philosophic-agnosticism because there is no way to know if any philosophic/theologic position can be true). Only the L-rd can convince us of his truthfulness instead of the truthiness of modern religion. Until you have taken the time to investigate the L-rd in the way H- requires (reading the scriptures -- I recommend the Book of Mormon; meditation; and prayer) instead of going to other men for insight. I know the arguments about scripture, but again they are only the words of other men.

By being irrational (the opposite if human rationality), ignoring philosophy, and casting aside precedent can we begin to understand G-d. Why do you think the L-rd said to be as little children? We must be mature that is true, but we also must seek the naivete that children have when dealing with the S-vior.

When you deal with other men, it is smart to be as wise as snakes, or otherwise you get hurt, but when dealing with a person who wants to do no harm to you, it is good to reciprocate and do not doubt H-s goodness.

So to begin: get a Book of Mormon and just read, but ignore all outside commentary unless it comes the input the L-rd would give you. If you have questions, ask, but then also ask the L-rd and compare your feelings.

Once you get to know what it is the L-rd has to say, can you then begin to see the value of both rationality and irrationality. Both are important. You can not go through life thinking one is more important than the other or you will get caught with only one tool that does not always work. What is more important, the Spirit of G-d will be there to guide you and you will be ever better prepared for the oscillations and just plain evil in life and the society of humans.

Thanks for the clarification, I think I understand your viewpoint a bit better now and what you've been talking about. I've started the book of Mormon with my wife already, I will continue through it to the end and pray about it, but I don't know that it will change my opinion.

I tend to disagree about the balance of rationality and irrationality, but then again I'm somewhat baised because I lean much more to the rational side as you've probably noticed. I have gone through life valuing rationality and disregarding what is irrational and it has served me well so far, but to each his own.

I will continue to search for knowledge of God and everything else in my own way, and I thank you for your insight into the matter.

[the Ogre]

I will continue to search for knowledge of God and everything else in my own way, and I thank you for your insight into the matter.

Kewl!!!