The Real Book of Mormon


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OK I don't think it matters if its historical or not - personally I believe it is but if it was proven otherwise it wouldn't make it worthless because it is still the Word of God and the precepts in it are things he wants us to know and follow. We are mortals trying to understand an immortal being further on in the progression than us - how many of us tell our children made up stories that illustrate something we want them to do - the story isn't worthless once they know it isn't real the message is still real.

-Charley

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There is no historical evidence that proves the Book of Mormon True. There also happens to be no historical evidence that proves the Bible True. It is set up that way for a purpose. So that men will walk by faith rather than by sight. The only way you can know the truth is by having the Holy Ghost bear witness and testify to your soul that the Book of Mormon and Bible are true. Joseph Smith said in reference to the rock of which we build our salvation, "What Rock? Revelation."

Any divinely appointed truths, are revealed by the power of the Holy Ghost and come by no other way. Some of them are the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

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There is no historical evidence that proves the Book of Mormon True. There also happens to be no historical evidence that proves the Bible True. It is set up that way for a purpose. So that men will walk by faith rather than by sight. The only way you can know the truth is by having the Holy Ghost bear witness and testify to your soul that the Book of Mormon and Bible are true. Joseph Smith said in reference to the rock of which we build our salvation, "What Rock? Revelation."

Any divinely appointed truths, are revealed by the power of the Holy Ghost and come by no other way. Some of them are the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

While there is no concrete historical evidence that proves the Book of Mormon true, there are impressive internal evidences. John Tvedtnes:

In 1966 a little-known critic of the LDS Church wrote a series of inflammatory letters designed to elicit negative comments about the Book of Abraham from prominent Near Eastern scholars. In his response, William F. Albright of Johns Hopkins University expressed doubts that Joseph Smith could have learned Egyptian from any early nineteenth century sources. Explaining that he was a Protestant and hence not a believer in the Book of Mormon, he observed, "It is all the more surprising that there are two Egyptian names, Paanch [Paanchi] and Pahor(an) which appear in the Book of Mormon in close connection with a reference to the original language being 'Reformed Egyptian.'" Puzzled at the existence of such names in a book published by Joseph Smith in 1830, Albright vaguely suggested that the young Mormon leader was some kind of "religious genius"10 and defended the honesty of Joseph Smith and the good name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have to believe that these comments reflect the fact that Albright was more than superficially acquainted with the Book of Mormon, even if he was not a believer.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2001_Scholarship_in_Mormonism_and_Mormonism_in_Scholarship.html

When a major biblical scholar pauses like this, we should take note. Is this another of Joseph Smith's "lucky hits"? Unlikely. Another is the Book of Mormon's description of Columbus, 1 Nephi 13:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

It could be argued that Joseph knew about Columbus, and presumably he did, but I did quite a lot of background research on this and discovered that Columbus' almost obsessive spiritual/religious nature was largely unknown to historians in 1830. Columbus' diaries and and letters were not extensively published until the 19th century (one was published in 1891). Taken from "Columbus and his world" (1986):

As he carefully reminded his

sovereigns in a letter dated 7 July 1503, he had received a

vision while yet a young man in which the Holy Spirit spoke

directly to him in these words:

God ... will cause your name to be wonderfully

proclaimed throughout the world ... and give you the

keys of the gates to the ocean which are closed with

strong chains.

The driving motivational force in his life was ultimately

his role in God's scheme for history:

Who doubts that this light was from the Holy Spirit ...

whom with rays of marvelous clarity it consoled ...

with forty-four books of the Old Testament and four

Evangelists, with twenty-three epistles of those

blessed apostles, encouraging me to proceed, and

continuously, without stopping a moment, they

encouraged me with great haste.

This is an almost perfect description of the Book of Mormon revelation:

and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man

No, this isn't proof, but it's certainly something worth considering. A critic disparaging the idea that Joseph Smith revealed something new, because "we all knew about Columbus in 1830", perhaps hasn't considered this. The Holy Spirit won't convince them, but facts like this might get them thinking a little more, and perhaps being a little less cynical. Or, perhaps not. It might all just be a waste of time.

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The point I was trying to make is that there is no argument that can prove the divinity of the book of Mormon or the Bible, save the Holy Spirit of Promise which testifies of all truth.

The problem with using these truths, such as Columbus, is that they are an effort to prove the divinity of the Book of Mormon. When we get in the game of trying to prove something is right, then the devil has won the battle. What arises is contention, which does not bond men together and promote love. We present truth in a manner that lays it in front of another person, for what it is. That person will then have to choose whether to accept the truth or to deny it. Truth is truth because it is truth. Persuasion works in progression. Truth does not progress. It is established and remains as truth for eternity. Truth will progress, though, in the sense that truth is established in the soul degree by degree, line upon line, precept by precept, here a little and there a little. The truth is still present even if we are not always aware of it. I was not aware that my grandfather had died until after we received a phone call saying he had passed away. But he had still passed away. Just because I didn't know, doesn't ean he hadn't died.

We cannot prove the Book of Mormon to be true. But the Holy Ghost does. It is true. But to every person who knows it's true, it is because the Holy Ghost has witnessed and testified to them that it is true. That is what we all have in common, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It is not because President Hinckley said it is true. Not because Elder McConkie said it is true. Not because my Dad says it is true. Not because your bishop says it is true. It is because you know individually and independent of any other person that it is true.

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We cannot prove the Book of Mormon to be true. But the Holy Ghost does. It is true. But to every person who knows it's true, it is because the Holy Ghost has witnessed and testified to them that it is true. That is what we all have in common, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It is not because President Hinckley said it is true. Not because Elder McConkie said it is true. Not because my Dad says it is true. Not because your bishop says it is true. It is because you know individually and independent of any other person that it is true.

Totally agreed. 100%

So do we just ignore the critics and condemn them to hell?

Are they not worth our time and effort? Should we not debate in the "marketplace" of opinions? Is FARMS totally useless? Is "apoligetics" totally useless? Is reason totally useless?

You have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit? What about those who haven't? Some "gentle persuasion" needed, on their terms, maybe?

Shall we condescend? Or just wipe them off to hell because they are evil?

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We ignore them. The critics will say what they will say. But as Elder McConkie would say, "The Caravan Moves On." Meaning the Church will move forward no matter what they do. It cannot be stopped.

We spend time and effort only as is necessary to establish truth. We do not need to debate opinions. Opinions have NO saving power. So why debate them? It is in the truth that salvation lies. Farms and apologetics aren't necessary but are a gracious effort and that is very kind-hearted and well-intentioned. By no means is reason useless. Rationality is reason. Irrationality is ignorance. We reason the Gospel like everything else but it can only be done in humility.

I have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise I could not boldly testify that Jesus is the Christ and He is the Son of the Living God, our Heavenly Father. He is the Redeemer of mankind and I know so firmly because I have exercised faith in His name and asked Him whether it is true. And it is. Now what about those who haven't, that is why we spread the gospel, that is why we talk about it. No persuasion is needed on our part. The Lord will bring the gospel to those who will accept it when they are ready.

There is no condescension, we are not better than them, we are not their judge. We can not go around persuading men to come unto Christ if we do not live Christlike lives. Now we are not perfect, but we must strive to be as perfect as possible. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." -Matt 5:48. When we accept into our hearts all the doctrines of Salvation, we can teach others of the truth.

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We ignore them. The critics will say what they will say. But as Elder McConkie would say, "The Caravan Moves On." Meaning the Church will move forward no matter what they do. It cannot be stopped.

Didn't Joseph Smith make some kind of similar proclamation or something to the effect that the Lord's work will move forward, nothing will get in the way and all things shall come to pass before the final days...? Something like that. It is a very poignant quote. I wish I could remember it.

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Didn't Joseph Smith make some kind of similar proclamation or something to the effect that the Lord's work will move forward, nothing will get in the way and all things shall come to pass before the final days...? Something like that. It is a very poignant quote. I wish I could remember it.

I think this may be it?

"No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done" (History of the Church, 4:540).

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We ignore them. The critics will say what they will say. But as Elder McConkie would say, "The Caravan Moves On." Meaning the Church will move forward no matter what they do. It cannot be stopped.

You have a point worth considering there. In my experience those who turn against Mormonism only become more hardened and rebellious. Their hatred multiplies in frightening proportions, year by year. But not all are like this. It's sometimes hard for me to discern.

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I have had doubts over the years about various things invlved with the Gospel, including the reality of the Book fo Mormon.

Then one day I decided just to believe in it. To read it, and try to do my best to live it (as with the Bible, P of G P, and D&C...).

I don't regret doing that, nor do I doubt that it has changed my life for the better.

Was Moroni real? yea...

O43

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I have had doubts over the years about various things invlved with the Gospel, including the reality of the Book fo Mormon.

Then one day I decided just to believe in it. To read it, and try to do my best to live it (as with the Bible, P of G P, and D&C...).

I don't regret doing that, nor do I doubt that it has changed my life for the better.

Was Moroni real? yea...

O43

The people, places, and major events of the BofM must be real. If not, the BofM is a fraud, and by extension, Joseph Smith.

As to the finer details of each event, sometimes re-recorded, then transcribed / abridged, we can debate the 100% accuracy, same as with the Bible.

Moroni is a real person, he really did appear to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did in reality receive the plates, and they really were an ancient text.

There is no other logical viewpoint.

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I agree that the Book of Mormon is a work of Fact not Fiction. The Lord promised through Joseph Smith that this work (His True Gospel) has been restored to the earth never to be taken away again. We can choose to Believe through faith as His plan suggests or we can choose to not believe and join the mass of confusing doctrines as the adversary would have us do.

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I still don't see why the Book of Mormon needs to be historically true to be the Word of God - Jesus told parables in the New Testament and the Old Testament is full of symbols. Is Isaiah worthless because it contains prophecy rather than history or the Prodigal Son of no use to us because it is merely a story? No they are things Heavenly Father thinks its worthwhile for us to read because they contain precepts that draw us closer to Him. All I need to know about the Book of Mormon is that Heavenly Father has told me its the Word of God that He knows it to be relevent to enriching my relationship with him. I will be disappointed if it turns out to be parables because I so want to meet Mormon, he seems to be an amazing man, but if he isn't real I know the Book draws me closer to my Heavenly Father, He wants me to read it and follow its precepts.

Humans learn a lot from stories they are the easiest way to teach us - Heavenly Father knows that, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet and the community involved in putting the Book of Mormon together in the first place contained prophets, that is all that matters.

-Charley

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I am patiently waiting for the other portions of those plates to be revealed.

That has always been conditional:

Ether 4:

4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

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I still don't see why the Book of Mormon needs to be historically true to be the Word of God - Jesus told parables in the New Testament and the Old Testament is full of symbols. Is Isaiah worthless because it contains prophecy rather than history or the Prodigal Son of no use to us because it is merely a story? No they are things Heavenly Father thinks its worthwhile for us to read because they contain precepts that draw us closer to Him. All I need to know about the Book of Mormon is that Heavenly Father has told me its the Word of God that He knows it to be relevent to enriching my relationship with him. I will be disappointed if it turns out to be parables because I so want to meet Mormon, he seems to be an amazing man, but if he isn't real I know the Book draws me closer to my Heavenly Father, He wants me to read it and follow its precepts.

Humans learn a lot from stories they are the easiest way to teach us - Heavenly Father knows that, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet and the community involved in putting the Book of Mormon together in the first place contained prophets, that is all that matters.

-Charley

The Book of Mormon makes the claim of being an historically real text. If it isn't, then it is a fraud. As a fraud, though the "stories" might be interesting reads, they are worthless to the soul.

Salvation doesn't come through the reading of fraud.

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The Book of Mormon makes the claim of being an historically real text. If it isn't, thein it is a fraud. As a fraud, though the "stories" might be interesting reads, they are worthless to the soul.

Salvation doesn't come through the reading of fraud.

see my testimony comes from knowing it is words my Heavenly Father wants me to know, love, read and abide by, That testimony comes from Heavenly Father, through prayer, from my relationship with Him to me that makes it precious. The historical accuracy of it for me is unimportant iits not the root of my testimony - I desperately want it to be accurate I want to meet the people in it. But if it was proved otherwise - it does not negate the fact Heavenly Father told me its contents were important for my relationship with him and my eternal progression.. My testimony doesn't come from the Book it comes from my Heavenly Father.

The Veda, Bhagdad Gita etc are not worthless because they contain just stories, If the people with the exception of the Saviour in the bible did not exist it is still not worthless it is our passport to knowing Heavenly Father

-Charley

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see my testimony comes from knowing it is words my Heavenly Father wants me to know, love, read and abide by, That testimony comes from Heavenly Father, through prayer, from my relationship with Him to me that makes it precious. The historical accuracy of it for me is unimportant iits not the root of my testimony - I desperately want it to be accurate I want to meet the people in it. But if it was proved otherwise - it does not negate the fact Heavenly Father told me its contents were important for my relationship with him and my eternal progression.. My testimony doesn't come from the Book it comes from my Heavenly Father.

The Veda, Bhagdad Gita etc are not worthless because they contain just stories, If the people with the exception of the Saviour in the bible did not exist it is still not worthless it is our passport to knowing Heavenly Father

-Charley

The texts you mention don't make claims of being actual, real events / histories.

Though the historical reality of the Book of Mormon is not the basis of a testimony of the Gospel, it is difficult to separate it at the root.

You see, Moroni asks us to ask GOD if it is true. If there was no Moroni, then the text is not true, and any testimony to its' validity would be false.

It's not like me writing a really good story that has tremendous moral appeal, that even the Holy Ghost is comfortable testifying of its' principles.

The Book of Mormon claims to be a real history of a real people. The "promise" at the end even makes the claim. If the person making the promise never existed, then the promise is fabricated.

Then we'd be left with interesting stories with moral content, but not a text whereby we may get closer to GOD, because, it would be a fraud, and GOD doesn't direct frauds.

To put it another way, if the BofM is not historically true, then Joseph Smith never actually saw "Moroni", and never actually received an ancient text on plates to translate, and the witnesses never actually saw ancient plates, and the title page of the Book of Mormon is false, and the reception of John the Baptist and the priesthood is false....

Though the ability to demonstrate the events / people as being real through scientific investigation is not the basis for testimony it does have the tools to show something as being historically accurate or not.

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Though the historical reality of the Book of Mormon is not the basis of a testimony of the Gospel, it is difficult to separate it at the root.

For me it is incredibly easy to separate the two as I tell many of my fundamental Christian friends God is not a book, the Book of Mormon is true because He says so no other reason

The Book of Mormon claims to be a real history of a real people. The "promise" at the end even makes the claim. If the person making the promise never existed, then the promise is fabricated.

Really its Heavenly Father making the claim and I am not disputing His existence I know he is real - therefore the promise is valid. Just like it does not matter which priesthood holder gives you a blessing because the source is the same it does not matter if the character in the book exists because the promise comes from Heavenly Father who is the one that told you it was HIS WORDS its not the words of Nephi, Moroni etc its the Word of God, It could have been Fred, John or Richard that wrote the words the promise remains because its from Heavenly Father.

Then we'd be left with interesting stories with moral content, but not a text whereby we may get closer to GOD, because, it would be a fraud, and GOD doesn't direct frauds.

But He would use the best way he knew how to tell us about Himself and how to progress. The book teaches us of God before it teaches us about the Book of Mormon people otherwise its either a novel or a history book - for me its a religious text

To put it another way, if the BofM is not historically true, then Joseph Smith never actually saw "Moroni", and never actually received an ancient text on plates to translate, and the witnesses never actually saw ancient plates, and the title page of the Book of Mormon is false, and the reception of John the Baptist and the ]priesthood is false....

Moroni would have to exist at least as an angel and the one thing I am not denying is that Joseph found the plates and translated them - he found something because the box he found them in was the very first of its kind to be found in the Americas I believe it was 150 years later others were found. The priesthood is not false I know that. For me the Holy Ghost bears witness the Book of Mormon is the Word of God and I don't really care if its historical or not. Some elements have to be fact for it to exist others even if they didn't are still what God wants us to know

Though the ability to demonstrate the events / people as being real through scientific investigation is not the basis for testimony it does have the tools to show something as being historically accurate or not.

So if something comes to light that proves the Book of Mormon is not historically accurate you would walk away - even if the Holy Ghost still tells you its the Word of God?

-Charley

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The Book of Mormon makes the claim of being an historically real text. If it isn't, then it is a fraud. As a fraud, though the "stories" might be interesting reads, they are worthless to the soul.

Salvation doesn't come through the reading of fraud.

The Golden Rule does not have to be based on a literal text to have great significance, not does the Desiderata. Some things are monuments to their own magnificence by virtue of their existence and the ability they have to impart symbolic truths to those touched by them.

I can recall how I was astonished and imspired by the recounting of various heroic myths by Joseph Campbell. There telling cannot be diminished by their being myth, since their symbolism lives on in me.

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The Golden Rule does not have to be based on a literal text to have great significance, not does the Desiderata. Some things are monuments to their own magnificence by virtue of their existence and the ability they have to impart symbolic truths to those touched by them.

I can recall how I was astonished and imspired by the recounting of various heroic myths by Joseph Campbell. There telling cannot be diminished by their being myth, since their symbolism lives on in me.

The problem is, friend, that the Book of Mormon clearly states that it is not a myth. There's no way around it.

If it were a myth, then the Book of Mormon is lying to us.

Of course, it isn't lying to us. What it says, in all respects, is true.

The whole point of this post is that IT HAS TO BE REAL, or it is a fraud.

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The problem is, friend, that the Book of Mormon clearly states that it is not a myth. There's no way around it.

The Book of Mormon is an inanimate object; therefore, it cannot speak.

If it were a myth, then the Book of Mormon is lying to us.

A book is an inanimate object; therefore, it cannot speak.

Of course, it isn't lying to us. What it says, in all respects, is true.

Again, a book is an inanimate object; therefore, it cannot speak.

The whole point of this post is that IT HAS TO BE REAL, or it is a fraud

The book physically exists; therefore, the book is real. However, the fact that the book exists does not prove it is, or is not, a fraud.

Elphaba

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