How deep do you believe?


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I've been thinking about this recently after reading some posts on this forum and other forums I frequent, so I figured I would discuss it here. Feel free not to answer if this topic makes you uncomfortable or you are offended by it.

I'll start off by saying that I like to think that I've got an open mind. I'm not a member, but I'm not from another religion either. I have no vested interest in the BoM being true or false. I've been investigating the historical aspects of BoM lately at the urging of my wife and neighbors. I've looked at both sides and read a great deal of arguments and from my perspective the stories in the BoM are completely unsubstantiated by genetic and archeological data. This is not to say it proves they didn't happen, just that I (personally)haven't found any convincing evidence that they did happen. That is beside the point though, it is only what inspired the question. I don't want to discuss evidence, lack of evidence, or counter evidence, there are plenty of other threads for that.

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

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For me, it would take God himself saying that it wasn't true. There is so much being discovered these days, that they never know what they will find. Also part of me doubts that some of the historians have got the correct answers. Maybe they misinterpreted something or a symbol. We don't know for a fact. At least that's how I look at it.

Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

And yet you question the BofM with unquestioning certainty that it is not true. At least that's what I gather from your posts. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but that's what I see in your post.
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And yet you question the BofM with unquestioning certainty that it is not true. At least that's what I gather from your posts. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but that's what I see in your post.

Yes, you are wrong. Maybe you only skimmed my posts or heard what you wanted to hear from them but I have only ever been in search of the truth. Failing to see evidence is not the same as unquestioning certainty that something is false.

For me, it would take God himself saying that it wasn't true.

And how does God talk to you if I might ask? Feelings? Voices in your head? How are those distinguishable from all the other people who God tells conflicting things to? Those people "just know" it is for real, yet some of them obviously have to be wrong.

I've only ever claimed that I haven't seen or felt evidence for God and that I'll remain skeptical until I receive ANY kind of evidence to base my faith on. Without that it would simply be blind faith.

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FAIR has a new film out that is far better than DNA Vs. The Book of Mormon by Living Hope Ministries. It is entitled The Book of Mormon And New world DNA. I have studied the genetic data pro and con. I was reading a bit of Simon Southerton, and an issue on it from Utah Lighthouse Ministry last night. The case against the book based on DNA is horrible. There is some DNA evidence for the book that was presented in the FAIR film.

FAIR has a new YouTube Channel. I heard they are showing parts of the film. FAIR might have it on its main page. FAIR Wiki has a Book of Mormon section and clips from its wiki. They have a DNA topical answer article.

I am reading a book entitled Echoes and Evidences For The Book of Mormon. I have read attempts by critics to rebut the evidences for antiquity. I read two essays in Zondervans the New Mormon Challenge. Plus i read the two reviews of the essays in the online copies of FARMS Review of Books. I still feel the evidence for the antiquity of the text stands up to scrutiny.

Online at FAIR it has Brant a Gardner's review of Bible vs. The Book of Mormon handles the critics best basic case against the book. I know because i watched the film he reviewed Bible vs. the Book of Mormon several times. I re-ponder the critics case each time i watch the film.

I have a high degree of confidence in the book. Do i know it is intellectually true? Yes i do to some degree. I do not know that a hundred percent. My faith hovers around 70%. And 20% of that is faith. The rest of the 50% is my current intellectual confidence.

I still get religious doubts and questions. Some answers i may find some day. Maybe i will die without some answers. I have answers that i am fully satisfied with. I have partial answers i am partially satisfied with. I have to make up for what i don't know by faith. But i am not one to just have faith, or ignore issues i work on them. I read faith promoting stuff, and trust what evidences i feel stand up to scrutiny. So i trust my faith and do not rely on untested feelings. I trust God because he has earned my respect by leaving trustworthy solid evidences for the books antiquity.

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There is a difference of ‘one who walks by faith of the world’ and ‘one walks knowingly.’ There is nothing in this world going to persuade those who know; for they do not walk blindly in the daylight, when the world will call it night. The world will have its five-minutes to discredit the Savior works from the beginning to the end of time, but in the end friend, when He reigns, all academic studies of the past will be corrected. We have the free agency to choose in this life to find that answer. Few will, most will not.

Your second statement is based on proposition practices of others [DNA, Archeology]. There is no real underlining bullet proof evidence to say otherwise. Now, did any of them care to ask GOD, to validate there work as Joseph Smith did when questioning other religions? Unlikely! Or perhaps – faithless! We simply don’t know the whole facts on whom, what, when, where, why different groups of people came to this land by the hands of the Savior; beside those listed in the BOM. Even to understand the ruins has raised eyebrows. What would you do when you hated those of another major tribe who built those cities and when finally emptied, occupy the space? Do some research in the BOM and then research the succeeding Egyptians Pharaohs who despised the last reigning monarch.

Your third statement, if you had such a machine, you will shock to find more than the Nephites and Lamanites in the Americas. If may scare you for life…lol

There is no uncertainty here, as there is no uncertainty in truth. Truth remains before God was called into existence and will remain after. Now the so-called uncertainty dogma is of man. Are you willing to give up the world and through sincerity, ask for the answer? Or what are your true intentions of being on this forum?

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I've been thinking about this recently after reading some posts on this forum and other forums I frequent, so I figured I would discuss it here. Feel free not to answer if this topic makes you uncomfortable or you are offended by it.

I'll start off by saying that I like to think that I've got an open mind. I'm not a member, but I'm not from another religion either. I have no vested interest in the BoM being true or false. I've been investigating the historical aspects of BoM lately at the urging of my wife and neighbors. I've looked at both sides and read a great deal of arguments and from my perspective the stories in the BoM are completely unsubstantiated by genetic and archeological data. This is not to say it proves they didn't happen, just that I (personally)haven't found any convincing evidence that they did happen. That is beside the point though, it is only what inspired the question. I don't want to discuss evidence, lack of evidence, or counter evidence, there are plenty of other threads for that.

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

There is a difference of ‘one who walks by faith of the world’ and ‘one walks knowingly.’ There is nothing in this world going to persuade those who know; for they do not walk blindly in the daylight, when the world will call it night. The world will have its five-minutes to discredit the Savior works from the beginning to the end of time, but in the end friend, when He reigns, all academic studies of the past will be corrected. We have the free agency to choose in this life to find that answer. Few will, most will not.

Your second statement is based on proposition practices of others [DNA, Archeology]. There is no real underlining bullet proof evidence to say otherwise. Now, did any of them care to ask GOD, to validate there work as Joseph Smith did when questioning other religions? Unlikely! Or perhaps – faithless! We simply don’t know the whole facts on whom, what, when, where, why different groups of people came to this land by the hands of the Savior; beside those listed in the BOM. Even to understand the ruins has raised eyebrows. What would you do when you hated those of another major tribe who built those cities and when finally emptied, occupy the space? Do some research in the BOM and then research the succeeding Egyptians Pharaohs who despised the last reigning monarch.

Your third statement, if you had such a machine, you will be shock to find more than the Nephites and Lamanites in the Americas. If may scare you for life…lol

There is no uncertainty here, as there is no uncertainty in truth. Truth remains before God was called into existence and will remain after. Now the so-called uncertainty dogma is of man. Are you willing to give up the world and through sincerity, ask for the answer? Or what are your true intentions of being on this forum?

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I believe in my Father and in the Son, Jesus Christ. I am satisfied with my own pet 'evidence' that Joseph Smith didn't write the Book of Mormon. If God himself made up the stories, it wouldn't bother me in the end, although I might ask a hearty, "Why??" I read the Book of Mormon for what it teaches and testifies to me of Jesus Christ, not what it tells of an ancient culture.

I love the Old Testament. I love the New Testament. I love the Book of Mormon. I love the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. I love the General Conference edition of the Ensign. And although I might not give them exactly the same weight, I love what I can learn about my Father and about my Savior and about the truth of this life's journey from all the great and good books of the world, and the great and good people of the world . . . :) I received a good number of revelations while reading Frank Herbert's Dune, eh? (Who didn't?)

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Your second statement is based on proposition practices of others [DNA, Archeology]. There is no real underlining bullet proof evidence to say otherwise. Now, did any of them care to ask GOD, to validate there work as Joseph Smith did when questioning other religions? Unlikely! Or perhaps – faithless! We simply don’t know the whole facts on whom, what, when, where, why different groups of people came to this land by the hands of the Savior; beside those listed in the BOM. Even to understand the ruins has raised eyebrows. What would you do when you hated those of another major tribe who built those cities and when finally emptied, occupy the space? Do some research in the BOM and then research the succeeding Egyptians Pharaohs who despised the last reigning monarch.

I was not saying that there exists evidence AGAINST the BoM, I was simply saying that I haven't found any emperical evidence FOR the BoM. In the hypothetical question I was asking IF there were overwhemling scientific evidence specifically against the BoM (there is not, hence the hypothetical part) if it would change your views.

Your third statement, if you had such a machine, you will be shock to find more than the Nephites and Lamanites in the Americas. If may scare you for life…lol

Interesting, but you did not answer my question. To answer your reversal of my question, I wouldn't be shocked, I would simply say, thank you God, there is the evidence I've been looking for to believe in something. So how would you react to my original question?

There is no uncertainty here, as there is no uncertainty in truth. Truth remains before God was called into existence and will remain after. Now the so-called uncertainty dogma is of man. Are you willing to give up the world and through sincerity, ask for the answer? Or what are your true intentions of being on this forum?

My true intentions of being on this forum are nothing more or less than I have stated before, to seek the truth.

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My knowledge of the BofM is much more than a historical account of people and places and whatever footprint they may or may not have left behind. It is the kind of knowledge that can't be obtained in a "one time" reading. It comes after millions of little answers as I study. It comes from moments or seasons in my life where I needed direction and went to the book for answers. It comes from studying and pondering the people, their character, their example and then applying to my own life to see what will happen. And then it is tasting the fruit of obedience myself. I believed the BofM from the time I was small. But the sure knowledge you are talking about has come to me over time with much disciplined study and application.

DS, don't know if you are married or have kids. But do you love your wife or child? or let's say your mother or a sibling? How do you know you love them? Can you prove it? Measure it? Document it? How on earth do you know yourself that you do feel such a thing? Can you get your mother in law to believe it just because you say it? If someone came out of the science community and said that love is not possible for humans to feel, would it make you stop loving them?

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Just to clarify to everyone, in my original post I did not claim that I have personally found evidence AGAINST the BoM, I simply stated that I haven't personally found any evidence FOR the BoM. There is a big difference. Also note that the questions are entirely hypothetical so please don't draw any conclusions on my opinion from them. They merely represent my thoughts lately about the strength and reasons for faith.

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My knowledge of the BofM is much more than a historical account of people and places and whatever footprint they may or may not have left behind. It is the kind of knowledge that can't be obtained in a "one time" reading. It comes after millions of little answers as I study. It comes from moments or seasons in my life where I needed direction and went to the book for answers. It comes from studying and pondering the people, their character, their example and then applying to my own life to see what will happen. And then it is tasting the fruit of obedience myself. I believed the BofM from the time I was small. But the sure knowledge you are talking about has come to me over time with much disciplined study and application.

I know that the BoM is much more than a historical account, but that doesn't change the fact that it also claims to be a historical count. My question was whether it would change your faith if the historical aspect of it was shown to be false and how much it would take for that to happen for you.

DS, don't know if you are married or have kids. But do you love your wife or child? or let's say your mother or a sibling? How do you know you love them? Can you prove it? Measure it? Document it? How on earth do you know yourself that you do feel such a thing? Can you get your mother in law to believe it just because you say it? If someone came out of the science community and said that love is not possible for humans to feel, would it make you stop loving them?

I am married and I do not have kids. I know that my wife loves me, but that is not to say I know that with unquestioned certainty in the face of evidence to the contrary. For instance if I were to catch my wife cheating on me, I would understandably question her love for me and possibly rethink that assumption. I was just wondering if there is a similar breaking point for religious faith and what it might be.

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DS, what would it take for you to believe? You are asking us, but isn't the real answer inside of you?

Even if you got all the scientific evidence in the world that there was indeed a man named Jesus and that he did indeed come to the America's, I venture to say that you still would find reason not to believe. Man's understanding of this world is, and you said it yourself, limited. And even if it weren't, you still wouldn't be able to believe. Laman and Lemuel, two characters in the book actually saw angels and still wouldn't believe.

You need to look inward and decide what it would take to open your mind to the spiritual. Understanding and recognizing the Spiritual communications of God is the only way any of us "know".

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DS, what would it take for you to believe? You are asking us, but isn't the real answer inside of you?

Even if you got all the scientific evidence in the world that there was indeed a man named Jesus and that he did indeed come to the America's, I venture to say that you still would find reason not to believe. Man's understanding of this world is, and you said it yourself, limited. And even if it weren't, you still wouldn't be able to believe. Laman and Lemuel, two characters in the book actually saw angels and still wouldn't believe.

You need to look inward and decide what it would take to open your mind to the spiritual. Understanding and recognizing the Spiritual communications of God is the only way any of us "know".

If there were indeed that much scientific evidence, I would gladly accept the Jesus-God theory. But as to whether I'd have faith in it, you're right, I still wouldn't. I don't see the benefit in closing your mind to other theories through faith. If it's true, you shouldn't need to close your mind to other ideas. Faith has always seemed like a convenient catch-all for religion to me. As much as I explored it so far, I haven't found anything more to it. It works for some people and that's great, but I haven't been able to get it to work for me.

I've tried to look "inward" but when I do, all I find is more layers of logical thinking. I figure that if God wanted to communicate something to me, with Him being omnipotent and all, He wouldn't have any trouble getting the message across.

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Breaking point..... hmmm...... From what I understand of science, it would have to do a heck of a lot better at the reliability factor for me to believe any conclusions. Most conclusions of science are temporary. Don't they need a lot of shoulders to stand on?? That circumstance won't change. And even if all the scientists got together and said there was not evidence of the bofm, I would probably guess some anti group funded the study.

It would take God himself telling me it were untrue. But you know, He has told me over and over and over again.... even last night, that it IS true. There is no other document or experience or person, that could take the place of what the book has come to mean to me. It has power beyond its words to open the mind and heart and spirit. DS, know what I wish? I wish you would read it. Everyday for a period of months. I wish you would weigh it and study it and search it and rip it to shreds with your questions. Read it from the perspective of changing your character.... making you a better man than you already are. Read it with your wife, and with the study guide and the docs from BYU to supplement. And then read the D&C with the same tenaciousness. And keep praying every day. Demand answers (humbly of course) Need the answers. Want the answers. Want it so bad you can't sleep. Keep doing it even if you feel like a complete moron while you kneel in your stripped pj's. Just see what happens.

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If there were indeed that much scientific evidence, I would gladly accept the Jesus-God theory. But as to whether I'd have faith in it, you're right, I still wouldn't. I don't see the benefit in closing your mind to other theories through faith. If it's true, you shouldn't need to close your mind to other ideas. Faith has always seemed like a convenient catch-all for religion to me. As much as I explored it so far, I haven't found anything more to it. It works for some people and that's great, but I haven't been able to get it to work for me.

I've tried to look "inward" but when I do, all I find is more layers of logical thinking. I figure that if God wanted to communicate something to me, with Him being omnipotent and all, He wouldn't have any trouble getting the message across.

Is logic the only side to your personality? Can you think of an experience in your life where logic doesn't apply? Like babysitting little girlie girls? Or grieving for the loss of a loved one?

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From:Paul R. Cheesman

Director of Church Distribution and Translation, Internal Communications Division

Archaeological Evidences - Book of Mormon

Buildings as seen by any tourist in Meso and South America -

2 Ne. 5:15; Mosiah 8:8; Mosiah 9:8; Mosiah 11:8

Cement of unusual strength -

Hel. 3:7, 9, 11

Towers seen by Cortez in his explanation

Alma 48:1; Alma 50:4

Highways up to 9,000 miles in length crisscrossing South America-

1 Ne. 21:11; Hel. 14:24

Wheels—many wheeled toys have been found

2 Ne. 12:7; Alma 18:9

Weapons of similar Old World construction have been found -

Alma 23:13; Alma 25:14; Jarom 1:8

Metallurgy—including gold, silver, and copper-

Hel. 6:9; Ether 10:23

Practice of medicine and surgery -

Alma 46:40

Evidence of a highly organized priesthood -

Alma 4:20; Alma 13:6

Evidences of a high civilization are also revealed in ancient America’s knowledge of mathematics, astronomy, religious practices, such as sacrifice, baptism, sacrament, circumcision, and belief in immortality. All of these, plus many other evidences, certainly would sustain and support the Book of Mormon.

It may be noted that there are still some historical and cultural concepts mentioned in the Book of Mormon that have not been sustained by the study of archaeology. This is very natural, since this discipline is a new science that came into being near the turn of the century, and new discoveries are being reported constantly. Time will undoubtedly provide the supportive evidence for the few remaining claims in the Book of Mormon that are lacking in archaeological parallels. One could say with certainty that nothing in the Book of Mormon has been proven to be false through the findings of archaeology—indeed there are many supportive evidences.

In my research on ancient America, along with my study of the Book of Mormon, I have found hundreds of examples that would substantiate the Book of Mormon story.

Notes

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Just to name a few

Writings of the BOM - reformed Egyptian

(Morm. 9:32). -The Book of Mormon was written in “reformed Egyptian”Most who have studied the subject conclude that this indicates writing the Hebrew language in modified Egyptian characters. In recent years, we have learned that several other ancient documents were also written in that fashion.

In recent years, rigorous statistical analysis strongly indicates that neither Joseph Smith nor any of his known associates composed the English text of the Book of Mormon. In fact, research suggests that the book was written by numerous distinct authors.

More than 100 examples of ancient writing on metal plates have been discovered, including the gold plate of Darius, buried in a stone box in 515–516 b.c.

Produced in roughly 63 working days without the benefit of any scholarly research, the Book of Mormon contains a sober and realistic historical narrative complete with remarkable prophecies of such events as Columbus’s discovery of the New World.

The Book of Mormon account of Lehi’s sojourn in the Arabian Peninsula is impressively accurate to numerous specific geographical conditions. No 19th-century scholar, much less Joseph Smith, could have known these details.

Some have questioned Nephi’s prophecy that Christ would be born in the land of Jerusalem, but the Dead Sea Scrolls show that Bethlehem was regarded anciently as a town in the “land of Jerusalem.”

Book of Mormon accounts of great destruction match in detail what modern science shows about cataclysmic geological events as well as historical reports of such catastrophes. Yet Joseph Smith had never seen a volcano or experienced a significant earthquake.

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DS, Are you really looking for a reason not to join or do you just not love your wife? I am just asking. I mean the church is pretty much like all others, except that we believe in family forever. Let's say you join the church, what do you think will happen? I have never heard, seen or other wise heard of any cermonies that would make you cut a toe off in order to show your loyalty. All they ask is you pray (talk out loud to God), read scriptures and make yourself a better person. They don't take your little girls and marry off to weirdos, They do teach them to help others and show them how to become a member of society that doesn't just take, but that gives and is unselfish.

If you look at the church from the out side circle, like what attracted you to your wife? What made you say hi for the first time? Was it that you knew she would say hi back? Or was it that she posessed a simple beauty that put you in awe. I sense that you have a true fear that you are either not worthy or do not want to fail. You never know whether you choose the right or wrong until after you have choosen. It is worth it in the end, but until you are done with the game you can not have the prize.

Hope you can find a peace that will allow you to understand the real truth. God Bless You.

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Breaking point..... hmmm...... From what I understand of science, it would have to do a heck of a lot better at the reliability factor for me to believe any conclusions. Most conclusions of science are temporary. Don't they need a lot of shoulders to stand on?? That circumstance won't change. And even if all the scientists got together and said there was not evidence of the bofm, I would probably guess some anti group funded the study.

It would take God himself telling me it were untrue. But you know, He has told me over and over and over again.... even last night, that it IS true. There is no other document or experience or person, that could take the place of what the book has come to mean to me. It has power beyond its words to open the mind and heart and spirit. DS, know what I wish? I wish you would read it. Everyday for a period of months. I wish you would weigh it and study it and search it and rip it to shreds with your questions. Read it from the perspective of changing your character.... making you a better man than you already are. Read it with your wife, and with the study guide and the docs from BYU to supplement. And then read the D&C with the same tenaciousness. And keep praying every day. Demand answers (humbly of course) Need the answers. Want the answers. Want it so bad you can't sleep. Keep doing it even if you feel like a complete moron while you kneel in your stripped pj's. Just see what happens.

You distrust science because of its uncertainty but you trust "spiritual knowledge" despite its uncertainty (why do so many different people have different spiritual knowledge revealed to them as the truth?). I have not experienced spiritual knowledge so scientific knowledge is all I have to go on for now.

By the way... I am reading the Book of Mormon (yes, it's kind of slow going) with my wife which led to me asking her questions which she admitted to not knowing the answers to which led me to the bishop who didn't really get what I was asking which led me to here.

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DS, Are you really looking for a reason not to join or do you just not love your wife? I am just asking. I mean the church is pretty much like all others, except that we believe in family forever. Let's say you join the church, what do you think will happen? I have never heard, seen or other wise heard of any cermonies that would make you cut a toe off in order to show your loyalty. All they ask is you pray (talk out loud to God), read scriptures and make yourself a better person. They don't take your little girls and marry off to weirdos, They do teach them to help others and show them how to become a member of society that doesn't just take, but that gives and is unselfish.

If you look at the church from the out side circle, like what attracted you to your wife? What made you say hi for the first time? Was it that you knew she would say hi back? Or was it that she posessed a simple beauty that put you in awe. I sense that you have a true fear that you are either not worthy or do not want to fail. You never know whether you choose the right or wrong until after you have choosen. It is worth it in the end, but until you are done with the game you can not have the prize.

Hope you can find a peace that will allow you to understand the real truth. God Bless You.

Just so you know, I would best be described as agnostic, so saying the church is like all others does not really help my belief in it. Also, I do attend church with my wife and I've seen the good the church does which is why I'm even investigating in the first place. I love my wife more than anything and would do anything for her. I will follow the moral teachings of the church and even give up things like alcohol (not that I was a big drinker in the first place) because it makes her happy. The only problem is that I will not lie and say that I believe when I simply don't have faith. My wife knows this and hopes I come around eventually but wouldn't want to force her beliefs on me any more than I want to force my lack of belief on her.

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Is logic the only side to your personality? Can you think of an experience in your life where logic doesn't apply? Like babysitting little girlie girls? Or grieving for the loss of a loved one?

Of course I have emotions, maybe not to the same degree as most people, but logically I can attribute them to the chemicals being released in my brain as programmed response to certain stimulus.

Logic doesn't apply to every aspect of my life, but it does apply to all things in my brain accepted as "probably true."

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You distrust science because of its uncertainty but you trust "spiritual knowledge" despite its uncertainty (why do so many different people have different spiritual knowledge revealed to them as the truth?). I have not experienced spiritual knowledge so scientific knowledge is all I have to go on for now.

By the way... I am reading the Book of Mormon (yes, it's kind of slow going) with my wife which led to me asking her questions which she admitted to not knowing the answers to which led me to the bishop who didn't really get what I was asking which led me to here.

I am glad to hear that. And I am glad you are asking questions. You ask in sincerity. I appreciate that about you. You WILL find what you are looking for.

Faith is a decision. You chose to believe. The same way you choose to believe your wife loves you. It ain't perfect or absolute. But you have faith enough to hold her hand.... that goes well so you have exercise a little more faith to smooch! Pretty soon your faith has ground so much you fork out the cash for a diamond..... and finally you commit and say 'I do'. Nothing logical about any of that! And apparently you made it through the process ok. It is the same thing with God. God will find a way to connect with you in a way your mind will understand. I know it. Good luck. It is ok if it takes a long time. Even years.

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I am glad to hear that. And I am glad you are asking questions. You ask in sincerity. I appreciate that about you. You WILL find what you are looking for.

Faith is a decision. You chose to believe. The same way you choose to believe your wife loves you. It ain't perfect or absolute. But you have faith enough to hold her hand.... that goes well so you have exercise a little more faith to smooch! Pretty soon your faith has ground so much you fork out the cash for a diamond..... and finally you commit and say 'I do'. Nothing logical about any of that! And apparently you made it through the process ok. It is the same thing with God. God will find a way to connect with you in a way your mind will understand. I know it. Good luck. It is ok if it takes a long time. Even years.

Thanks, I'll keep waiting for that day.

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What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

I have not read everyone else's posts because this addresses us individually. How deep do I believe? In a nutshell, it is beyond belief. It is a testimony--a witness, a knowledge of truth. For me that witness is as real as the computer screen in front of you. My testimony is a direct revelation from my Father in Heaven through the manifestation of the confirming power of the Holy Ghost.

From your point of view this is all bizarre speculation. From my point of view, it is as true as the fact that He lives. And if God lives and does not lie then everything that He has brought to pass since the time of Adam and Eve through His divine wisdom and power is true. Therefore your hypothetical situations are void.

If you want to know how this is possible, how I and others have received that witness, please feel free to read my other thread:

http://www.lds.net/forums/prayers-testimonies/10069-your-book-mormon-story.html

It is these defining moments that put away all doubts. If you want to know the truth about something, you ask someone of authority of that truth. If it is true, then everything else about it is truth. I know that the Book of Moron is true. I know that Jesus Christ lives. There is no doubt and nothing can and will ever change those facts.

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