How deep do you believe?

[DigitalShadow]

Hey DS. I know that I am nobody from nowhere but, I'd love to hear what you think about the BofM while you read it. Is there a chance you feel any differently when you compare reading it to other books? I mean other than all the "thee's and thou's".

I may not know you personally, but I have come to respect your opinion on matters from the insight of your posts. Honestly, so far it has been kind of dry reading, I get a little tired of "And so it came to pass" all the time. I mean, I know it is not meant to be a literary masterpeice but starting sentences with a little more variety couldn't hurt . Other than that I haven't felt anything yet but I'm only maybe 10% done so far. The story seems interesting. I did watch "Journey of Faith" with my wife recently to go along with where we are in the story and help visualize it a little more. I'll keep you posted on my reactions as we read on if you want.

I guess I am wondering if it might help to recognize little ways the spirit works. I feel warmer or calmer inside when I am doing spiritual things. Or maybe you could contrast that with times when you knew you were in the wrong place, with the wrong people, or perhaps the feeling you had when you stole gum as a child and felt badly.

I feel it when I know a decision is wrong. Sometimes I feel a warning about something or someone. I get that a lot with my kids and their friends. I can pick up on the warning vibes. Last year, I had this feeling that we were going to move. The next week he got the sweetest job offer. I knew we would sell our house. I just had this sixth sense about it. And we did in a day.

Have you experienced anything like that?

In my experience, feelings of right and wrong usually come from the upbringing. For instance I have a catholic friend who feels guilt when eating meat on friday. I have never felt bad about it, so I just attribute it to his parents drilling beliefs into his head when he was young. Lessons learned when you are young and impressionable often stick around as "intuition" later even if you can't tell directly where the feeling is coming from.

BTW, you said that you know you are doing the right thing by questioning and searching. How do you know???

Just a personal philosophy, my dad is a scientist, maybe it made an impression on me :)

[DigitalShadow]

Do you believe in God?

I certainly don't discount the possibility, but I wouldn't say I "believe" at the moment though.

Do you believe that God speaks to man?

Again, I think there's a possibility for it. I think that if God were omnipotent and decided to communicate with his children, he wouldn't have so much trouble getting the message across so I tend to think he doesn't since there is so much confusion in the world over God's will.

Do you believe that God's words are written down, somewhere, anywhere?

Once again, I would have to say it is entirely possible that if God were to communicate with people someone would write it down.

[Guest tomk]

Do you believe in "the Devil"?

If such a being were to exist, and he knew that God speaks to us through our feelings, what do you think one of his strategies might be to thwart God's efforts?

I'd do my best to get God's children to discount, minimalize, or flat-out reject the idea that God can speak to them through their FEELINGS.

What do you think?

[WANDERER]

Hey DS,

seeking God even if you don't know the truth of Him in the way that you are doing

is more than many others do who are convinced that there is a God.

I respect that and wish you well in finding the answers that you seek.

[DigitalShadow]

Do you believe in "the Devil"?

If such a being were to exist, and he knew that God speaks to us through our feelings, what do you think one of his strategies might be to thwart God's efforts?

I'd do my best to get God's children to discount, minimalize, or flat-out reject the idea that God can speak to them through their FEELINGS.

What do you think?

I find it more likely that God exists than some form of "Devil". But assuming such a being exists, how do we know it is not "The Devil" speaking to us through our feelings impersonating God, and God is the one attempting to get us to see reason with logic and with the brains He gave us? That would explain all the killing and destruction that takes place in God's name.

[Guest tomk]

I find it more likely that God exists than some form of "Devil". But assuming such a being exists, how do we know it is not "The Devil" speaking to us through our feelings impersonating God, and God is the one attempting to get us to see reason with logic and with the brains He gave us? That would explain all the killing and destruction that takes place in God's name.

Yep, it would explain it. So that provides some evidence for belief in the Devil (the fact that he deceives so many into thinking they are doing "God's work" when in fact they are fighting against God.)

Moro. 7: 13, 17

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

• • •

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

Can you think of some examples from your life where you feel you have been "invited and enticed to do good continually"?

Can you think of some times where you have been "persuaded to do evil, and to believe not in Christ"?

[lilered]

I find it more likely that God exists than some form of "Devil". But assuming such a being exists, how do we know it is not "The Devil" speaking to us through our feelings impersonating God, and God is the one attempting to get us to see reason with logic and with the brains He gave us? That would explain all the killing and destruction that takes place in God's name.

DS - To know God and His Son is eternal life. How can we learn to know God if we are unwilling to seek after Him and do His will?

When we lack gospel knowledge or rely upon our own wisdom, we may be more easily led into evil by Satan.

We have to seek after him (God) and do his will, and then we will know him.

We do this by studying his word (Bible), and (BM, DC, PGP).

Satan’s power over a person increases as that person becomes more wicked, until eventually the person is “taken captive by the devil” and bound with the “chains of hell.” (Alma 12:11.)

Satan’s method is to influence the thoughts of men, tempting them and enticing them, always working “in the hearts of the children of men.” (2 Ne. 28:20.)

We are not capable of overcoming Satan alone. If Satan entices us to do evil, so the Holy Spirit “entices” us to virtue.

There are several ways to know whether or not a thought, impression, dream, etc, is God or the Devil.

God gives to every man the Spirit of Christ to know the difference between right and wrong.

If we are not sure, then we need to seek God in prayer, and he will help us to know, thru the same Holy Spirit.

In addition, “the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray” (2 Ne. 32:8)

It follows the, If it is a good thought then it has to be from God. If it is a bad thought it has to come from Satan. As a man thinketh, so he becomes.

Work at keeping your thoughts clean by thinking of something good. The mind can think of only one thing at a time. Use that fact to crowd out ugly thoughts. Above all, don’t feed thoughts by reading or watching things that are wrong. If you don’t control your thoughts, Satan will keep tempting you until you eventually act them out.

Rationalization of sin is one of Satans most successful tactics.

Elder Dallan Oakes -

Another strength Satan can exploit is a strong desire to understand everything about every principle of the gospel.Experience teaches that if this desire is not disciplined, it can cause some to pursue their searchings beyond the fringes of orthodoxy, seeking answers to obscure mysteries rather than seeking a firmer understanding and a better practice of the basic principles of the gospel.

[Elgama]

I think for the Book of Mormon to be true you need to know God and be able to communicate with Him - for me it would take him telling me it was time to move on for it become a problem. As I see it factual or not its still the Word of God

-Charley

[DigitalShadow]

Yep, it would explain it. So that provides some evidence for belief in the Devil (the fact that he deceives so many into thinking they are doing "God's work" when in fact they are fighting against God.)

If both "God" and "The Devil" can obviously use feelings to convince us to follow certain paths, how do you know it wasn't simply "The Devil" giving you feelings that you are doing the right thing while in reality God wanted you to join a different religion and you'll now be sent to Hell because you bet everything on a feeling that could have come from either source? If this "Devil" character is really as sneaky as you say, don't you think he would have thought of that? I'm not saying this to be mean or sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious about this.

Can you think of some examples from your life where you feel you have been "invited and enticed to do good continually"?

I've never felt an external force guiding my choices. Not all my choices have been good, but I take responsibility for the bad ones along with the good ones.

Can you think of some times where you have been "persuaded to do evil, and to believe not in Christ"?

Comining the two statements of "doing evil" and to "believe not in Christ" in one question doesn't make any sense. There are people who don't do evil and don't believe in Christ and there are also people who do horrendous evil and do believe in Christ. So I will answer them seperately.

Can you think of some times where you have been "persuaded to do evil"?

I consider intentionally and maliciously doing something you know will harm another person as evil. I've never done anything I would consider as evil in that sense. Not to say everything I've done has been perfectly good, but I would not say anything I've done has gone so far as "evil."

Can you think of some times where you have been "persuaded to believe not in Christ?

My parents were Unitarian Universalist and even then mostly went to church for social reasons. They encouraged me to think for myself especially on matters of religion. I bring this up because I would simply say that I've never been persuaded TO believe in Christ, not that I have some external force persuading me NOT TO believe in Christ.

[Guest tomk]

How do you know you've done something "wrong"?

How do you know you've done something "good"?

[WANDERER]

An external force that prompts you to seek for God....is not of Satan. Now back to the general thread on how deep do you believe.

[DigitalShadow]

How do you know you've done something "wrong"?

How do you know you've done something "good"?

It's quite simple. If I do something that affects other people in a negative way it is "wrong", if I do something that affects other people in a positive way it is "good". How do I determine negative and positive? Well it is different for everyone but I use how I would feel if it happened to me as a guide.

[DigitalShadow]

DS - To know God and His Son is eternal life. How can we learn to know God if we are unwilling to seek after Him and do His will?

When we lack gospel knowledge or rely upon our own wisdom, we may be more easily led into evil by Satan.

We have to seek after him (God) and do his will, and then we will know him.

We do this by studying his word (Bible), and (BM, DC, PGP).

Saying your particular scripts are the "word" of God is just another unsubstantiated claim among many.

Satan’s power over a person increases as that person becomes more wicked, until eventually the person is “taken captive by the devil” and bound with the “chains of hell.” (Alma 12:11.)

Satan’s method is to influence the thoughts of men, tempting them and enticing them, always working “in the hearts of the children of men.” (2 Ne. 28:20.)

We are not capable of overcoming Satan alone. If Satan entices us to do evil, so the Holy Spirit “entices” us to virtue.

Apparently I am able to "overcome Satan" alone, because I've never felt the slightest external force to do "evil" deeds and I've never had faith in any particular religion. I think anyone that knows me in real life would consider me a moral individual.

There are several ways to know whether or not a thought, impression, dream, etc, is God or the Devil.

God gives to every man the Spirit of Christ to know the difference between right and wrong.

If we are not sure, then we need to seek God in prayer, and he will help us to know, thru the same Holy Spirit.

Apparently not "every man" has the ability to know right and wrong because some people pray and believe God tells them to kill in His name. Very few people committing attrocities believe they are doing the wrong thing.

In addition, “the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray” (2 Ne. 32:8)

It follows the, If it is a good thought then it has to be from God. If it is a bad thought it has to come from Satan. As a man thinketh, so he becomes.

Not everything is black and white and why couldn't a cunning "Devil" make a "bad" thought sound like a "good" one?

Work at keeping your thoughts clean by thinking of something good. The mind can think of only one thing at a time. Use that fact to crowd out ugly thoughts. Above all, don’t feed thoughts by reading or watching things that are wrong. If you don’t control your thoughts, Satan will keep tempting you until you eventually act them out.

Rationalization of sin is one of Satans most successful tactics.

I think "Satan" is simply a convenient justification for bad thoughts. No one wants to believe that they themself are capable of "evil" thoughts if they occur so they convince themselves that these "evil" thoughts are all from an external source, when really they're probably just repressed emotions.

[skalenfehl]

It's quite simple. If I do something that affects other people in a negative way it is "wrong", if I do something that affects other people in a positive way it is "good". How do I determine negative and positive? Well it is different for everyone but I use how I would feel if it happened to me as a guide.

How you would "feel"...

You tune into your feelings. That is how we describe the spirit or light of Christ within you as tomk mentioned above. It's that very sense that the Lord communicates with us, much like that wonderful feeling of doing something good for someone, etc. is a message from the Lord that he is pleased that you helped one of his children and rewards you with a portion of His spirit. When we are motivated to listen or tune into that feeling, like tuning into a station on the radio can we open that line of communication. It is by exercising our faith that the channel opens just like the physical act of tuning the knob on the radio.

Try doing different acts of kindness or good deeds of service to others and note the feelings that come. You will begin to feel the Spirit work within you.

[Guest tomk]

It's quite simple. If I do something that affects other people in a negative way it is "wrong", if I do something that affects other people in a positive way it is "good". How do I determine negative and positive? Well it is different for everyone but I use how I would feel if it happened to me as a guide.

Exactly.

And I say, God uses our feelings to speak to us. And yes, so does the devil.

Which brings us back to:

Moro. 7: 11, 16-17, 19, 22, 24-26

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

• • •

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

• • •

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

• • •

22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

• • •

24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.

26 And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.

Seems pretty "straighforward" and "easy to understand" to me!!!!

It's not rocket science -- but it does require a believing heart and a willingness to experiment upon the word.

If you are not willing to submit to God's program without PROOF, then I guess His gospel is not something you are really interested in.

God realizes that some people just won't believe in Him without proof. I guess you are one of those people?

[Misshalfway]

Good Morning DS.

I was wondering for the sake of conversation and for the sake of weighing both sides equally, what makes you feel that there may be a God. If you are truly an agnostic, then I am assuming there would be something pulling you from atheism. So, if you were to make a case for God. What would it be.... without doubts added into the equation? We can add those in a minute.

[Guest tomk]

1 Ne. 17: 45

45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.

I suppose it is possible NOT to feel His words!

[Misshalfway]

I also wanted to say as part of the earlier conversation, that people who do horrific things in the name of religion, ARE NOT following their conscience! They follow their pride and lust for power and dominion! Believe me, it ain't the good voice talking!! They need the lie or mask of religion to deceive, twist, and control. Never does God ask us to replace another humans ideas above our own. He wants each of us to know independently of anyone else. That is why my husbands testimony won't get me to the line. Even if I follow his every righteous step. It is not enough. Because my responsibility is to get the knowledge for myself.

I will also say that it takes a great deal of courage to follow the inner conscience... especially when it conflicts with ones religion .... or ones scientific upbringing! ( you'll have to forgive me this teasing little poke.)

[DigitalShadow]

Seems pretty "straighforward" and "easy to understand" to me!!!!

Yes, assuming that is the pure word of God, it is pretty clear. Unfortunately I haven't seen or felt anything to justify that it is the word of God any more than another script claiming to be the word of God. When I read it I feel the same as if I were reading mythology.

It's not rocket science -- but it does require a believing heart and a willingness to experiment upon the word.

I don't have a believing heart, I am a skeptic at heart, does that make me any less of a child of God? Does God only care about the naive? If God made me, He made me skeptical and all, why hasn't He left anything for His skeptical children?

If you are not willing to submit to God's program without PROOF, then I guess His gospel is not something you are really interested in.

No, I'm simply not willing to submit to anything claiming to be "God's program" without evidence of some kind, any kind. You have your evidence, along with everyone who has a testimony, but I haven't felt anything from God. If God really cared about me and He is omnipotent He would give some form of response since it takes no effort for him but would mean the world to me. You can say I'm just not hearing the response or some such nonsense but since God is omnipotent, I reckon he would know exactly what I would be able to hear.

God realizes that some people just won't believe in Him without proof. I guess you are one of those people?

Again, I never said I wanted proof, I simply want some form of evidence, is that so much to ask? You say he knows some people won't believe him out of faith, then why did a perfect God create such an imperfect system? Why not make his presence known for each generation and find out which people are the disobedient ones rather than just discriminating against the skeptical ones that are simply using the gifts they were given to discern what makes sense.

[DigitalShadow]

Good Morning DS.

I was wondering for the sake of conversation and for the sake of weighing both sides equally, what makes you feel that there may be a God. If you are truly an agnostic, then I am assuming there would be something pulling you from atheism. So, if you were to make a case for God. What would it be.... without doubts added into the equation? We can add those in a minute.

The only thing that pulls me away from atheism is that I believe it is just as arrogant to say you KNOW there is no God as it is to say you KNOW there is a God. Neither positions are supported by evidence from my point of view.

If I were to make a case for God, it would be that I have no idea why the universe exists and why there seem to be a set of rules governing it. I'd say it is possible there is an ultimate rule keeper and creator somewhere, but I'd say it is unlikely that he is interfering with our daily affairs or created us in his own image.

[Misshalfway]

I don't have a believing heart, I am a skeptic at heart, does that make me any less of a child of God? Does God only care about the naive? If God made me, He made me skeptical and all, why hasn't He left anything for His skeptical children?

No. It doesn't make you less special. It makes you normal.

I have a little girl, eight, who absolutely won't go to the dentist. She has a cavity and needs the dreeded shot. But she just won't believe she'll be ok. My other kids did it just fine. The dentist is REALLY good at doing the shot thing. I have never seen better. My sons said it didn't really hurt that bad. But she is skeptical. Does that make her different? Should I love her less? No. Certainly not. But it does require that I ask more of her. I teach her and plead with her and I am patient with her. Sometimes I must get stern in order to teach her. But truth be told, I can do all of those things, but she will never know that it will be ok if she doesn't go where she doesn't want to go and do it.

I think perhaps you are waiting on God. But you may be waiting a long time. Because He may be waiting on you.

[Misshalfway]

The only thing that pulls me away from atheism is that I believe it is just as arrogant to say you KNOW there is no God as it is to say you KNOW there is a God. Neither positions are supported by evidence from my point of view.

If I were to make a case for God, it would be that I have no idea why the universe exists and why there seem to be a set of rules governing it. I'd say it is possible there is an ultimate rule keeper and creator somewhere, but I'd say it is unlikely that he is interfering with our daily affairs or created us in his own image.

Why is that idea unlikely to you? Wouldn't it be just as likely that God would interfere and create us in his image? It is likely to me that he would. Tigers beget tigers. Mice beget mice. Humans beget humans. It is very logical to me that a God would beget a reflection of itself. And in nature, most species raise their offspring.

If there is a creator, the next step is understanding the nature of that creator. Is it some force that just goes from planet to planet putting life there and then leaving them to destroy themselves? Or is this being a caring parent, guiding and directing his children through human experience to happiness, peace, and maturity? In my mind, it is either one of the two. I can't think of God as someone up there watching for his amusement.

(Forgive the pronoun "he". This is the English Language. "it" just doesn't seem right.)

What kind of an answer do you expect to get if there is a God? What would that look like to you? What would you need in order to break the tie between trusting and not trusting? What if God whispered in your ear? Would that be enough?

[DigitalShadow]

I also wanted to say as part of the earlier conversation, that people who do horrific things in the name of religion, ARE NOT following their conscience! They follow their pride and lust for power and dominion! Believe me, it ain't the good voice talking!!

If you honestly believe that you are killing hundreds of people to save millions, are you really acting against a conscience? If honestly you believe God told you to kill people to carry out his vengence, is it acting against a conscience? Most people think that all people who commit attrocities know they are doing "evil" and are simply following a lust for power. I'm sure that is the case for some of them, but in the case of the religious fanatic, they honestly believe they are doing the right thing wherever the voice in their head leads them and that is what makes them dangerous. Do you think the terrorists that died in the 9/11 attack had any remorse for what they did? They believed it was the right thing so strongly that they died for the cause.

[DigitalShadow]

Why is that idea unlikely to you? Wouldn't it be just as likely that God would interfere and create us in his image? It is likely to me that he would. Tigers beget tigers. Mice beget mice. Humans beget humans. It is very logical to me that a God would beget a reflection of itself.

I believe if there is a God he created the entire universe and on the countless other planets where life evolved, it evolved differently and the dominant species probably looks nothing like us but instead is adapted to its own environment.

To believe that we are special in the universe and we are the only species on this planet that matters and so naturally God made US in his own image is an attractive thought, but ultimately only fullfilling our own arrogance and need to be special.

[DigitalShadow]

I don't have a believing heart, I am a skeptic at heart, does that make me any less of a child of God? Does God only care about the naive? If God made me, He made me skeptical and all, why hasn't He left anything for His skeptical children?

No. It doesn't make you less special. It makes you normal.

I have a little girl, eight, who absolutely won't go to the dentist. She has a cavity and needs the dreeded shot. But she just won't believe she'll be ok. My other kids did it just fine. The dentist is REALLY good at doing the shot thing. I have never seen better. My sons said it didn't really hurt that bad. But she is skeptical. Does that make her different? Should I love her less? No. Certainly not. But it does require that I ask more of her. I teach her and plead with her and I am patient with her. Sometimes I must get stern in order to teach her. But truth be told, I can do all of those things, but she will never know that it will be ok if she doesn't go where she doesn't want to go and do it.

I think perhaps you are waiting on God. But you may be waiting a long time. Because He may be waiting on you.

That is my point exactly. Your child is skeptical so you take a different path and directly tell her what to do for her own good. If God is the eternal father, why would he not take the same simple actions and be more stern with his skeptical children?