How deep do you believe?


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If God really cared about me and He is omnipotent He would give some form of response since it takes no effort for him but would mean the world to me. You can say I'm just not hearing the response or some such nonsense but since God is omnipotent, I reckon he would know exactly what I would be able to hear.

You're right -- He could.

The beginning of understanding Him is to ask yourself the question:

"If God could make it crystal clear to me that He exists, but chooses not to -- is there a reason for Him to behave this way?"

In all of your complaining about God not giving you evidence -- you (perhaps unknowingly) have hit upon the very essence of why you are here on this earth.

It's about choice. And it's about desire.

God won't interfere with your agency, including your having a relationship with Him or obeying Him.

That is why He won't write in the sky, in letters 100 feet tall, "DS, this is God. I exist and you should do what I say"

He COULD do that, but He won't. He won't because that would unduly influence you.

All I can tell you is that the way this works, down here on earth, is that we are the ones who need to seek HIM, not the other way around.

We can't stomp around like spoiled kids, demanding that He make His mind and will ULTRA APPARENT to us. We don't grow that way. We can't grow that way.

God is not going to come down here and march us through mortality, telling us that He lives and loves us, forcing it down our throats.

You keep complaining about evidence. It's all around you. You are kneck deep in the evidence that there is a Creator. But you are blind to it because the only way you are willing to accept the evidence is if it comes to you through the 5 senses.

But God is saying, "I don't work that way. I speak to you through your feelings."

God is not going to change the way things work for you. So that means you ARE going to have to go through life, never really knowing if God exists, because you refuse to humble yourself and do the things He has CLEARLY told you that you need to do in order to know that He exists. But you do need to humble yourself and ask in faith, believing that He will speak to you. You do have to be willing to listen to your feelings and follow them.

There is an entire new world waiting for you. You hold the key to unlocking it, if you are willing. But you have to be willing. It's not on us, or God, to turn that key for you. YOU have to take that leap of faith, man. You.

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What kind of an answer do you expect to get if there is a God? What would that look like to you? What would you need in order to break the tie between trusting and not trusting? What if God whispered in your ear? Would that be enough?

I would settle for a simple "I'm here, I care about you and you're on the right path" from God.

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Today you sound like an atheist. You sound like you have already made up your mind.

In your descriptions, I would find myself quite lost. What would my purpose be? What would I then do with the longing in my heart that pushes me to find truth? Why do I long to be special? To know that someone somewhere loves me, knows my name and my struggles, and loves me enough to help me? If there is no such being, I would be in despair. What would then prevent me from ending this life altogether? Why fight to live? Just so someone else can get power and dominate another? Just so mankind can run a muck as slaves to their lusts? What you describe is a place of utter emptiness. Because I feel the emptiness......that tells me something is wrong with the theory.

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You're right -- He could.

The beginning of understanding Him is to ask yourself the question:

"If God could make it crystal clear to me that He exists, but chooses not to -- is there a reason for Him to behave this way?"

In all of your complaining about God not giving you evidence -- you (perhaps unknowingly) have hit upon the very essence of why you are here on this earth.

It's about choice. And it's about desire.

God won't interfere with your agency, including your having a relationship with Him or obeying Him.

That is why He won't write in the sky, in letters 100 feet tall, "DS, this is God. I exist and you should do what I say"

He COULD do that, but He won't. He won't because that would unduly influence you.

All I can tell you is that the way this works, down here on earth, is that we are the ones who need to seek HIM, not the other way around.

We can't stomp around like spoiled kids, demanding that He make His mind and will ULTRA APPARENT to us. We don't grow that way. We can't grow that way.

God is not going to come down here and march us through mortality, telling us that He lives and loves us, forcing it down our throats.

You keep complaining about evidence. It's all around you. You are kneck deep in the evidence that there is a Creator. But you are blind to it because the only way you are willing to accept the evidence is if it comes to you through the 5 senses.

But God is saying, "I don't work that way. I speak to you through your feelings."

God is not going to change the way things work for you. So that means you ARE going to have to go through life, never really knowing if God exists, because you refuse to humble yourself and do the things He has CLEARLY told you that you need to do in order to know that He exists. But you do need to humble yourself and ask in faith, believing that He will speak to you. You do have to be willing to listen to your feelings and follow them.

There is an entire new world waiting for you. You hold the key to unlocking it, if you are willing. But you have to be willing. It's not on us, or God, to turn that key for you. YOU have to take that leap of faith, man. You.

I'm not asking for writing in the sky or even anything that goes through my 5 senses, at this point I'd settle for God whispering in my mind, "I do exist and the Mormons have it right"

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If you honestly believe that you are killing hundreds of people to save millions, are you really acting against a conscience? If honestly you believe God told you to kill people to carry out his vengence, is it acting against a conscience? Most people think that all people who commit attrocities know they are doing "evil" and are simply following a lust for power. I'm sure that is the case for some of them, but in the case of the religious fanatic, they honestly believe they are doing the right thing wherever the voice in their head leads them and that is what makes them dangerous. Do you think the terrorists that died in the 9/11 attack had any remorse for what they did? They believed it was the right thing so strongly that they died for the cause.

It's called DENIAL!

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That is my point exactly. Your child is skeptical so you take a different path and directly tell her what to do for her own good. If God is the eternal father, why would he not take the same simple actions and be more stern with his skeptical children?

Ask Him.

Read more. You will understand.

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Today you sound like an atheist. You sound like you have already made up your mind.

In your descriptions, I would find myself quite lost. What would my purpose be? What would I then do with the longing in my heart that pushes me to find truth? Why do I long to be special? To know that someone somewhere loves me, knows my name and my struggles, and loves me enough to help me? If there is no such being, I would be in despair.

I have not made up my mind, I was simply stating what I find as the most likely scenario. You see emptiness and despair, but I see the opportunity to define for yourself what your purpose is and how you search for the truth.

What would then prevent me from ending this life altogether? Why fight to live? Just so someone else can get power and dominate another? Just so mankind can run a muck as slaves to their lusts?

What is to prevent you from ending your life? Nothing, in fact some people do just that. Why fight to live? Because living is what you know, beyond that is unknown and life is all you have. Many people live their lives with similar theories to mine except with more certainty. They don't run amuck or instantly kill themselves or become a slave to their lust any more than you do.

What you describe is a place of utter emptiness. Because I feel the emptiness......that tells me something is wrong with the theory.

I don't see how feeling emptiness is a sign of something being not true though. The truth is sometimes unpleasant, but that doesn't change the truth.

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That is my point exactly. Your child is skeptical so you take a different path and directly tell her what to do for her own good. If God is the eternal father, why would he not take the same simple actions and be more stern with his skeptical children?

To tell you the truth, I am at my whits end. Nothing I say makes a difference. I will have to drug her to do it. Force her for her own good.

God won't do that. He doesn't mess with our free will. If he did so he would cease to be God. Spiritual knowledge isn't free. God requires things first. He requires these things first because with spiritual knowledge comes responsibility. He doesn't just give it because you demand it. You need to study about what the prereq's are. You need to discipline yourself to these. You need to show God you are ready for the responsibility that will follow. That you are willing to be obedient.

D&C 9:6-9

6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

God may however give us experiences to humble us, if we refuse to be humbled on our own. I am talking about suffering. Pain is hard and yucky, but it is an amazing teacher. It carves out space for more faith, truth, and obedience.

You need to study, my friend. Lots and lots of study.

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It's called DENIAL!

What are they denying? They are simply believing what they have been taught to believe since they are young, just like you. If they knew the "truth" but were simply denying it, why would they die for their cause? Wouldn't the thought of ending it all and sending yourself to hell snap someone out of simple denial?

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To tell you the truth, I am at my whits end. Nothing I say makes a difference. I will have to drug her to do it. Force her for her own good.

God won't do that. He doesn't mess with our free will. If he did so he would cease to be God. Spiritual knowledge isn't free. God requires things first. He requires these things first because with spiritual knowledge comes responsibility. He doesn't just give it because you demand it. You need to study about what the prereq's are. You need to discipline yourself to these. You need to show God you are ready for the responsibility that will follow. That you are willing to be obedient.

D&C 9:6-9

6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must astudy it out in your bmind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your dbosom shall eburn within you; therefore, you shall ffeel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a astupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is bsacred save it be given you from me.

God may however give us experiences to humble us, if we refuse to be humbled on our own. I am talking about suffering. Pain is hard and yucky, but it is an amazing teacher. It carves out space for more faith, truth, and obedience.

You need to study, my friend. Lots and lots of study.

You taking your child aside and saying they have to go to the dentist OR ELSE doesn't take away her free will any more than God sternly telling us he exists would. It's not like God had any second thoughts about wiping out the whole world's population except for 2 people in the Old Testament when he sent the great flood. He was fine with sending plagues to teach the egyptians lessons when they opressed Moses' people. Why does He worry about taking away free will by making his existance known now?

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I'm not asking for writing in the sky or even anything that goes through my 5 senses, at this point I'd settle for God whispering in my mind, "I do exist and the Mormons have it right"

I think He's already told you.

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You taking your child aside and saying they have to go to the dentist OR ELSE doesn't take away her free will any more than God sternly telling us he exists would. It's not like God had any second thoughts about wiping out the whole world's population except for 2 people in the Old Testament when he sent the great flood. He was fine with sending plagues to teach the egyptians lessons when they opressed Moses' people. Why does He worry about taking away free will by making his existance known now?

We reap what we sow. In each case, if His children had been obedient He would not have done those things. In each case, there were multiple warnings beforehand. They were given every chance to repent. Back then, just like now, God will not interfere with our agency. Signs do not bring out faith or obedience in man. Signs harden our hearts, they don't soften them. God won't give you the evidence BEFORE you exercise faith in Him, because that is the way it works...and even God Himself is bound to follow eternal law. We have to desire to know Him.

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We reap what we sow. In each case, if His children had been obedient He would not have done those things. In each case, there were multiple warnings beforehand. They were given every chance to repent. Back then, just like now, God will not interfere with our agency. Signs do not bring out faith or obedience in man. Signs harden our hearts, they don't soften them. God won't give you the evidence BEFORE you exercise faith in Him, because that is the way it works...and even God Himself is bound to follow eternal law. We have to desire to know Him.

I do desire to know Him and maybe I just don't have enough faith, but what I'm curious about now is all the people in other countries who were born and died without hearing a word of the gospel. God won't give evidnece without faith, but how can they have faith in something they have never heard of? I realize that is why you have missionaries and all, but doesn't that seem rather cruel and unusual of God? Why not just send a savior to every culture with the same message?

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I would settle for a simple "I'm here, I care about you and you're on the right path" from God.

I don't know why God hasn't blessed you with this knowledge yet. I can only guess. This past year, my suffering became so profound that I questioned everything about my faith. I questioned the existence of a God. I questioned the LDS church and every church in my defiance and thru the tears of my pain. I prayed. Months went by. No answers. Why? I would ask myself? What have I done? Doesn't He care? Why wouldn't he answer and deliver me?

I can't share with you how the knowledge came to me on this forum. But I can tell you that God was there! Even when I didn't know it. He has answered my prayers. He left me alone for a time so that I would learn. And learn I did! I know He exists and that he loves me and that I am indeed on the right path. My knowledge is so sure, I cannot escape it. I argue with it some days cause I don't like all that the truth brings sometimes. But I cannot deny it. Believe me. I have tried!

I can't prove it to you. I sometimes wonder why I insist on trying. I admit it. It is because I am a sentimental fool and I care. But I absolutely know! And I say it from the depth of my humility. And I pray in my heart that you someday will feel the spirit that I feel. Be believing, DS. Put your doubt and logic and your need to see evidence to the side. It will always be there. But it doesn't serve you now, so discipline it like you would a child with gentle understanding as you say, "not right now". Broken heart, contrite spirit! Even if you don't know how to .... or even if every part of your nature objects! Be believing and go the distance in that believing....... God will meet you there!

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I do desire to know Him and maybe I just don't have enough faith, but what I'm curious about now is all the people in other countries who were born and died without hearing a word of the gospel. God won't give evidnece without faith, but how can they have faith in something they have never heard of? I realize that is why you have missionaries and all, but doesn't that seem rather cruel and unusual of God? Why not just send a savior to every culture with the same message?

There are many answers to this question.

My first answer is I don't know the wisdom behind the set up. I do know that God does give truth to the Nations. Even though the christian world doesn't believe it, we believe Christ visited his sheep in America. He told those early American's that he would visit other sheep around the globe. Just because we don't have the documentation yet, doesn't mean He didn't cover all the bases.

Temple work covers the rest of the answer. As does the millenium. We are on this planet to gain experience first and foremost. God will take care of making sure each and every soul has the opportunity to hear and accept the truth. It will all come out in the wash....as they say.

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I don't know why God hasn't blessed you with this knowledge yet. I can only guess. This past year, my suffering became so profound that I questioned everything about my faith. I questioned the existence of a God. I questioned the LDS church and every church in my defiance and thru the tears of my pain. I prayed. Months went by. No answers. Why? I would ask myself? What have I done? Doesn't He care? Why wouldn't he answer and deliver me?

I can't share with you how the knowledge came to me on this forum. But I can tell you that God was there! Even when I didn't know it. He has answered my prayers. He left me alone for a time so that I would learn. And learn I did! I know He exists and that he loves me and that I am indeed on the right path. My knowledge is so sure, I cannot escape it. I argue with it some days cause I don't like all that the truth brings sometimes. But I cannot deny it. Believe me. I have tried!

I can't prove it to you. I sometimes wonder why I insist on trying. I admit it. It is because I am a sentimental fool and I care. But I absolutely know! And I say it from the depth of my humility. And I pray in my heart that you someday will feel the spirit that I feel. Be believing, DS. Put your doubt and logic and your need to see evidence to the side. It will always be there. But it doesn't serve you now, so discipline it like you would a child with gentle understanding as you say, "not right now". Broken heart, contrite spirit! Even if you don't know how to .... or even if every part of your nature objects! Be believing and go the distance in that believing....... God will meet you there!

You are a very compassionate person and from the depths of my heart I wish I could believe even if only because I know how much it would mean to you. However it seems like every time I try, I get a thought in the back of my mind that tells me "what makes this religion special among all others? They all make as much sense as the next, they all claim to be true and they all say different things." It speaks to me just as clear as the forces that tell you your religion is true. You can tell me it is "Satan" trying to lead me away from the light, but I find it far more likely that it's just my scientific upbrining telling me to test things through experiment rather than faith. Whatever the case, I promise you that I will remain with an open mind (and heart) and wait for God to make his presence known unto me. I say a lot of things on this forum and may seem antagonistic at times, but the keep in mind that I'm still here and I'm still seeking the truth in my own way.

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I do desire to know Him and maybe I just don't have enough faith, but what I'm curious about now is all the people in other countries who were born and died without hearing a word of the gospel. God won't give evidnece without faith, but how can they have faith in something they have never heard of? I realize that is why you have missionaries and all, but doesn't that seem rather cruel and unusual of God? Why not just send a savior to every culture with the same message?

When Christ was crucified and was dead three days, He preached His gospel in the Spirit World to those who had never had the chance to hear His word, especially those that died in the flood of Noah:

1 Pet. 3: 18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Pet. 4: 6

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

DigitalShadow, this work is still going on in the Spirit World today. All those people in other countries that you mention who never had the chance in this life will have that chance. Our loving Father in Heaven really has thought of everything. We have but to seek it out while we can.

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When Christ was crucified and was dead three days, He preached His gospel in the Spirit World to those who had never had the chance to hear His word, especially those that died in the flood of Noah:

1 Pet. 3: 18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Pet. 4: 6

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

DigitalShadow, this work is still going on in the Spirit World today. All those people in other countries that you mention who never had the chance in this life will have that chance. Our loving Father in Heaven really has thought of everything. We have but to seek it out while we can.

It seems to me that the most logical solution is to simply wait for the spirit world then. I know you say that is not what God wants us to do and I would "fail" the mortal test, but all I have to go on are the words of men who have their own agenda and way of looking at the world. I'll wait until God deems it time to speak to me and tell me what to do, but for now I haven't personally seen or "felt" any compelling reason to believe in a religion yet.

From an agnostic's perspective (the only perspective I can speak for), it seems like everyone tends to believe what they were taught as a child with few exceptions. Also most of the exceptions seem to be people either changing faiths or leaving the faith, I've never known anyone raised atheist who later joined a religion (I'm not talking about the rebellious teenagers who denounce their religion only to later come back to what they have been raised to believe.) Obviously that is not proof of anything, but to me it suggests that religion is simply a construct of man with varying myths passed through the generations going back as far as history itself. I would wager to guess that nearly everyone here disagrees with me, but that is what "feels" right to me just as your faith "feels" right to you.

I enjoy our discussions here and do feel like I'm learning a lot. I certainly hope that my suspicions on the world are wrong and that there is a universal truth delivered to us by God and I will continue waiting to receive it.

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I enjoy our discussions here and do feel like I'm learning a lot. I certainly hope that my suspicions on the world are wrong and that there is a universal truth delivered to us by God and I will continue waiting to receive it.

I, too, have enjoyed this topic. The fact that you're here seeking is a step in the right direction. The tools to find your answer have been laid out. The best I can say based on your level of motivation is to keep your heart open and if you're so inclined use those tools.

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...

...

I'll wait until God deems it time to speak to me and tell me what to do, but for now I haven't personally seen or "felt" any compelling reason to believe in a religion yet.

...

...

I'll I can say to that is, you are waiting for something you don't have to wait for. You can have the answers you seek answered much much sooner.

The Book of Mormon anticipated that there would be people like you, sitting around "waiting for God to prove it to them" their whole lives. Take a look at this:

[[ Note: DS is you below (DigitalShadow) ]]

1 Nephi 15:

1 And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been carried away in the spirit, and seen all these things, I returned to the tent of my father.

2 And it came to pass that I beheld my brethren, and they were disputing one with another concerning the things which my father had spoken unto them.

3 For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought.

"which were hard to be understood [by DS]"

"save a man [DS] should inquire of the Lord"

4 And now I, Nephi, was grieved because of the hardness of their hearts, and also, because of the things which I had seen, and knew they must unavoidably come to pass because of the great wickedness of the children of men.

5 And it came to pass that I was overcome because of my afflictions, for I considered that mine afflictions were great above all, because of the destruction of my people, for I had beheld their fall.

6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

"The Lord maketh no such thing known unto us"

which is another way of saying, "He didn't spell it out for us. Why won't He just spell-it-out for us? He's all powerful, so why can't He do it?"

See the parallel, here?

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

-not harden your hearts

-ask [God] in faith

-believing that ye shall receive

-with diligence in keeping my commandments

surely these things shall be made known unto you.

DS, you may say "God has made no such thing known unto you" but you cannot say "God has not given me the tools so that He can make these things known unto me" -- for He has.

You have the tools necessary. They have been given to you in these discussions.

The choice is yours! Will you act on this information, or disregard it?

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I'll I can say to that is, you are waiting for something you don't have to wait for. You can have the answers you seek answered much much sooner.

The Book of Mormon anticipated that there would be people like you, sitting around "waiting for God to prove it to them" their whole lives. Take a look at this:

[[ Note: DS is you below (DigitalShadow) ]]

1 Nephi 15:

1 And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been carried away in the spirit, and seen all these things, I returned to the tent of my father.

2 And it came to pass that I beheld my brethren, and they were disputing one with another concerning the things which my father had spoken unto them.

3 For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought.

"which were hard to be understood [by DS]"

"save a man [DS] should inquire of the Lord"

4 And now I, Nephi, was grieved because of the hardness of their hearts, and also, because of the things which I had seen, and knew they must unavoidably come to pass because of the great wickedness of the children of men.

5 And it came to pass that I was overcome because of my afflictions, for I considered that mine afflictions were great above all, because of the destruction of my people, for I had beheld their fall.

6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

"The Lord maketh no such thing known unto us"

which is another way of saying, "He didn't spell it out for us. Why won't He just spell-it-out for us? He's all powerful, so why can't He do it?"

See the parallel, here?

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

-not harden your hearts

-ask [God] in faith

-believing that ye shall receive

-with diligence in keeping my commandments

surely these things shall be made known unto you.

DS, you may say "God has made no such thing known unto you" but you cannot say "God has not given me the tools so that He can make these things known unto me" -- for He has.

You have the tools necessary. They have been given to you in these discussions.

The choice is yours! Will you act on this information, or disregard it?

I have asked the Lord and received nothing. Rather than just assuming no one is there, I'm giving the church the benefit of the doubt and waiting for the Lord to respond in His own time. Are you suggesting there is more than I can/should do, and if so, what?

Edit: Before you ask, I already am reading the BoM and going to church weekly with my wife.

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I have asked the Lord and received nothing. Rather than just assuming no one is there, I'm giving the church the benefit of the doubt and waiting for the Lord to respond in His own time. Are you suggesting there is more than I can/should do, and if so, what?

Edit: Before you ask, I already am reading the BoM and going to church weekly with my wife.

I think you are on the right path, DS. Many who do have some kind of faith don't go as far as you have. Even the tiniest mustard seed grows into a magnificent tree. So is faith.

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