How deep do you believe?


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I find it curious that all of this analysis is done, regarding the Book of Mormon, forgetting that the words fell from the mouth of an uneducated farmboy.

This kind of haggling over the authenticity of the book, instead of the pure, saving truths found therein, is the reason why we are still under condemnation.

Here God has given us this precious gift, and we squabble over it, instead of seeking to live by its teachings.

Just my two cents. I don't mean to offend, just make an observation. If I am wrong, then just ignore me.

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Oh, did tomk write something? ;-)

I agree that the doctrines and principles taught in the Book of Mormon are key. I doubt that we will lose our salvation over whether we believe in a Hemispheric Geographical Model or a Limited Geographical Model for the Book of Mormon. However, we will lose our salvation for not studying and developing within ourselves the Doctrine of Christ.

Still, we can often understand doctrinal issues by better understanding the text from the viewpoint of those who wrote it. For example, Jacob and others teach doctrines by referencing other scripture. Joseph Smith and the 19th century Saints did not notice these contextual points. But in understanding ancient things correctly, we can better understand those things. Jacob teaching of the Allegory of the Olive Tree is a great example. It is meaningless to many, and somewhat understandable to some, but few understand it on most levels meant by Jacob. For example, Olive trees were tamed by mankind from wild trees. These trees can live for thousands of years, in fact some trees still used today were being planted in Jesus' day. As branches grow old and stop producing good fruit, young branches are grafted in, often from wild trees. As they are nourished, the wild branches become tame and extend the life of the tree as the old roots are balanced by the new branches. However, too many wild branches can overcome the tame tree and turn it wild. After many seasons of bearing fruit, grafting, etc., the trees finally end their useful cycle and are burned to prepare the ground for new plants.

With such understanding, we can then understand the doctrines behind the Allegory better. For example, a family or Lord would be more attached to a centuries-old tree more than one that's been around only a few years.

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I've been thinking about this recently after reading some posts on this forum and other forums I frequent, so I figured I would discuss it here. Feel free not to answer if this topic makes you uncomfortable or you are offended by it.

I'll start off by saying that I like to think that I've got an open mind. I'm not a member, but I'm not from another religion either. I have no vested interest in the BoM being true or false. I've been investigating the historical aspects of BoM lately at the urging of my wife and neighbors. I've looked at both sides and read a great deal of arguments and from my perspective the stories in the BoM are completely unsubstantiated by genetic and archeological data. This is not to say it proves they didn't happen, just that I (personally)haven't found any convincing evidence that they did happen. That is beside the point though, it is only what inspired the question. I don't want to discuss evidence, lack of evidence, or counter evidence, there are plenty of other threads for that.

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

Digital, Great post by the way! I love that you ask these questions. I think it was Timonthy who needed more evidence of Jesus and he showed him his hands so that he could know for sure. I can't answer your question from a lds perspective but I can answer it from a non lds. I see too much evidence to not support BOM and too much evidence to ignore that does support the bible. But your question intrigues me. because if there was some time machine. we would have to do away with it altogether. my family and I talk about this that if there was ever crediable evidences that supported Jesus did not ressurect from the dead we would be forced to abandon our faith.

I can remember a time in my life when I was faced with something that I almost did away with God altogether and became a athesist. The thing was the outcome to events did not go my way and so I thought because i had served him that they should be going my way. God did a 180 on my attitude really quick.

I can also remember pleading for the life of a dying brother..and it shook my faith and grounded me..and being forced to almost do cpr on my father and calling 911...shook my faith and grounded me...dealing with the death of my father at a young age...shook my faith and grounded me. Nothing and I mean nothing at this time could convince there is no God.

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The spiritual witness I've received concerning the Book of Mormon, the Latter-day Prophets, etc., is strong enough that it would require an equally strong and continual witness to its contrary to make me doubt the things I believe, or spiritually know.

Given that I've now been a member for over 30 years and that spiritual witness has been consistent, and in fact grown stronger and more frequent as I learn to tune in better to the Spirit, I highly doubt that such an opposing experience will be forthcoming. If it were to occur, it would truly shake my foundations, and cause me to stop believing in an unchanging God. Hence, there would be a God that is unworthy of my faith and trust!

Archaeologically, I agree there is no proof for the Book of Mormon. But then, there is no proof for the spiritual events in the Bible, either. But I believe there are physical evidences available for both, to leave the door open to possibly being true. I'll leave all to go to FARMS and FAIR to see some of those evidences. Those do not convert nor keep people in the Church, but the spiritual witness does.

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Think about it: God could have provided irrefutable physical proof of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. But He didn't. He had an uneducated farm boy translate it. And He left the "proof" up to each person individually.

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I am glad to hear that. And I am glad you are asking questions. You ask in sincerity. I appreciate that about you. You WILL find what you are looking for.

Faith is a decision. You chose to believe. The same way you choose to believe your wife loves you. It ain't perfect or absolute. But you have faith enough to hold her hand.... that goes well so you have exercise a little more faith to smooch! Pretty soon your faith has ground so much you fork out the cash for a diamond..... and finally you commit and say 'I do'. Nothing logical about any of that! And apparently you made it through the process ok. It is the same thing with God. God will find a way to connect with you in a way your mind will understand. I know it. Good luck. It is ok if it takes a long time. Even years.

It took my mother's husband 25 years to join the church. He often attended with her, but he just wasn't converted. Then, one day, a window somehow opened, and he "got it." Now he wonders what took him so long, but he came to the truth in his own time, and that's as it should be.

Maybe the same thing will happen for you, DS. I hope so! :balloons:

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