What is the doctrine of the Atonement?

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I figure, it is just before Easter, we could have a good discussion on the atonement and Jesus Christ.

[skalenfehl]

I really like 3 Nephi chapter 27. The entire chapter is really good, but verses 13-22 more specifically. When Christ visited the Nephites (which begins with chapter 11), He gave them His gospel:

3 Ne. 27: 13-22

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

[tubaloth]

I don't know how much we can really discuss.

I really like this talk talk

The Atonement and Our Part in It

It doesn't really get that deep, but you need to read it carefully to understand all that is being said.

[skalenfehl]

Here's a wonderful Talk given by Jeffrey R. Holland given to Salt Lake Temple workers in 1985:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - "I Stand All Amazed"

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I don't know how much we can really discuss.

I really like this talk talk

The Atonement and Our Part in It

It doesn't really get that deep, but you need to read it carefully to understand all that is being said.

Well, I was just trying to get some focus onto the atonement and get some meaningful talk about it. I know it is hard to discuss a truth, because it is set in stone. But I was thinking along the lines of, if people post things they know then people will be able see it and reflect upon it, and see this great gift and hopefully have a greater appreciation for it. I also wanted to read some uplifting material.(sorry for the selfishness.)

It is so deep and broad and all encompassing that there can often be many different understandings and beliefs, regarding the Atonement. The different understandings formulate from different levels of progression of knowledge that we have attained. I find that Paul speaks a lot on the atonement and how things relate to it.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

How do you set up a link?

sorry, I know it's off topic. I have a wonderful devotional by Elder McConkie that illustrates the Plan of Salvation so clearly. And therefore the need for the atonement and how we work towards receiving the gift into our hearts. And I just end up pasting the website and not giving it a link.

[skalenfehl]

In order to understand the Atonement, one must understand the Fall of Adam. In order to understand the Fall of Adam, one must understand our pre-mortal existence. (Abraham 3:22-28).

Pre-mortal Existence -> Fall of Adam ->Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Now there are three subjects worthy of dissertations.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

In order to understand the Atonement, one must understand the Fall of Adam. In order to understand the Fall of Adam, one must understand our pre-mortal existence. (Abraham 3:22-28).

Pre-mortal Existence -> Fall of Adam ->Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Now there are three subjects worthy of dissertations.

You know, that is what Elder McConkie talks about(though not outrightly) in that devotional. "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified."

"Jesus Christ and Him Crucified"

[skalenfehl]

I fixed the html for you. I pm'd you with the tags you can use to make links. :)

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Here is another link to another devotional he gave, that I remembered. Distinguishes the difference in works and faith. It does have to be read very carefully, but it enhanced my understanding a lot.

What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace?

[MaidservantX]

Thank you thirdperson for this topic.

There are so many places I love to sink into the words of the atonement. But the first one that came to mind when I started reading here is:

2 Nephi 26:24

"He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation. Behold, doth he cry unto any saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price."

[Dear434]

I figure, it is just before Easter, we could have a good discussion on the atonement and Jesus Christ.

"The atonement is a doctrine found within both Christianity and Judaism. It describes how sin can be forgiven by God. In Judaism, Atonement is said to be the process of forgiving or pardoning a transgression. This was originally accomplished through rituals performed by a High Priest on the holiest day of the Jewish year: Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). In Christian theology the atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the death by crucifixion of Jesus Christ which made possible the reconciliation between God and creation.

Etymology

The word atonement gained widespread use in the sixteenth century after William Tyndale recognized that there was not a direct translation of the concept into English. In order to explain the doctrine of Christ's sacrifice, which accomplished both the remission of sin and reconciliation of man to God, Tyndale invented a word that would encompass both actions. He wanted to overcome the inherent limitations of the word "reconciliation" while incorporating the aspects of "propitiation" and forgiveness. It is interesting to note that while Tyndale labored to translate the 1526 English Bible, his proposed word comprises two parts, 'at' and 'onement,' which also means reconciliation, but combines it with something more. Although one thinks of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), the Hebrew word is 'kaper' meaning 'a covering', so one can see that 'reconciliation' doesn't precisely contain all the necessary components of the word atonement. Expiation means "to atone for." Reconciliation comes from Latin roots re, meaning "again"; con, meaning "with"; and ultimately, 'sol', a root meaning "seat". Reconciliation, therefore, literally means "to sit again with." While this meaning may appear sufficient, Tyndale thought that if translated as "reconciliation," there would be a pervasive misunderstanding of the word's deeper significance to not just reconcile, but "to cover," so the word was invented.[1][2] [3] Atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Hemidakota]

Instead of linking articles as your thoughts, let it be personal.

[Maya]

Oh God my Redeemer.... by Jeff Godrich sung by Brett Raymond... I just love that!

Sorry I have no words to say it better...

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I love reading Alma 7.

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

15 Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you, which doth bind you down to destruction, yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism.

16 And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth, the same will remember that I say unto him, yea, he will remember that I have said unto him, he shall have eternal life, according to the testimony of the Holy Spirit, which testifieth in me.

17 And now my beloved brethren, do you believe these things? Behold, I say unto you, yea, I know that ye believe them; and the way that I know that ye believe them is by the manifestation of the Spirit which is in me. And now because your faith is strong concerning that, yea, concerning the things which I have spoken, great is my joy.

18 For as I said unto you from the beginning, that I had much desire that ye were not in the state of dilemma like your brethren, even so I have found that my desires have been gratified.

19 For I perceive that ye are in the paths of righteousness; I perceive that ye are in the path which leads to the kingdom of God; yea, I perceive that ye are making his paths straight.

20 I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round.

21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness.

22 And now my beloved brethren, I have said these things unto you that I might awaken you to a sense of your duty to God, that ye may walk blameless before him, that ye may walk after the holy order of God, after which ye have been received.

23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.

24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.

25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.

26 And now my beloved brethren, I have spoken these words unto you according to the Spirit which testifieth in me; and my soul doth exceedingly rejoice, because of the exceeding diligence and heed which ye have given unto my word.

27 And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and all that you possess, your women and your children, according to your faith and good works, from this time forth and forever. And thus I have spoken. Amen.

I was just going to put in 10-16 but the rest is just so connected. Alma 5 is also very good.

The doctrine is set forth so clearly and plainly. It is hard to misunderstand. He suffered the atonement so He would know how to succor His people. So He could loose the bands of death making immortality a reality. He made the possibility for Eternal Life a reality. He has thus set the terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation into full force. He is our advocate. We truly works for us to achieve Exaltation. The intended gift of our Heavenly Father for all His children. It is our choice to accept the fullness of the Atonement. We have to exemplify that choice by our faith and works for the glory of God, not the glory of men.

Philippians 2:11-12

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Guest tomk]

This book on the Atonement was eye-opening:

Amazon.com: The Atonement of Jesus Christ: A study of the saving atonement of Jesus Christ: Kevan Kingsley Clawson: Books

I commend it to your reading.

Mercy cannot rob Justice. In fact, Justice has full sway in our lives. When we sin, Justice is invoked immediately by the withdrawal of the Spirit, which brings remorse of conscience. Mercy is extended through the merits of Christ. The Atonement reverses the effects of Justice, it does not prevent them.

Read Alma 42.

[Hemidakota]

Talk about 'Justice', do you know what or who is Justice? Something interesting...

[Guest tomk]

What "Justice" actually is is very interesting to me.

From a talk by Cleon Skousen on the atonement, my understanding is that the universe is composed of 2 things. Intelligence and Element.

Element is just ... "stuff". Atoms, neutrons, protons. It has no ability to do anything by itself.

Intelligence is the substance that acts upon Element.

Our spirit bodies are "organized intelligences".

The universe is filled with Intelligences. These intelligences are what constitute eternal law. They constitute the "way things are." There is no changing the way things are. Even God cannot change the way things are. These intelligences say that for God to continue to be God, he must obey them. Not obey THEM per se, but to obey the order of the universe as they constitute it. If God did not obey eternal law, He would cease to be God.

God's power comes from the HONOR which he has with these intelligences. He Himself is comprised of these same intelligences which honor Him.

D&C 29: 36

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

God's power flows from the "honor" He has with the intelligences of the universe...which constitute eternal law.

Christ's Atonement opened the door for us to join Father in the Celestial Kingdom. Christ's suffering was so sore that it was able to reach the element of COMPASSION that resides in these intelligences. When we talk about Justice or Mercy, we are describing the characteristics of these intelligences. They demand Justice "the demans of Justic" but they also have Mercy. We are exalted because of what CHRIST did, not because of what we do.

Alma 34: 16

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.

God would probably LOVE to just let us come down here and experience mortality and come back to live with Him. But the intelligences which honor Him, which give Him His power, said, "No, they cannot come up. They have broken the law." That is why God provided a Savior for us. A way to satisfy them...to satisfy the intelligences...the demands of justice. We meant so much to Him that He risked His Only Begotten Son in the flesh to "redeem us" - to "buy us back."

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

It's not FATHER, literally, who is deciding to spare us or not. He loves us. He would gladly have us come home. He is not interested in making this any more difficult than it needs to be. It is the source of His power that demands He follow eternal law. The Intelligences which are co-eternal with God. The intelligences which have always existed. The Intelligences which cannot be created nor destroyed.

D&C 93 has some wonderful nuggets:

27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

Abr. 3: 18

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Tom

[a-train]

Man, don't get Crimson in here on this. This is a topic he really gets into.

I'll throw in this: 'Atonement' is not a verb. The 'Atonement of Jesus Christ' is not the same thing as the 'Sacrifice of the Lamb of God'. The sacrifice makes atonement. The Atonement of Jesus Christ was made possible by His Sacrifice.

A look at the use of the term 'atonement' in the OT will demonstrate it's use. It most often follows the words: 'make an', such as in Lev. 5:6: 'And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.'

In this use, the act of sacrifice on the part of the sinner and the administration of the ordinance by the priest do not constitute an atonement, rather they 'make an atonement'.

The atonement made is actually the state of reconciliation brought about by the efforts of God and man. This is why Tyndale (mentioned already by Dear434) formulated the word. A direct translation of 'covering' would have been inadequate as well as other translations offered such as 'reconciliation'. The Wycliffe Bible said only 'make prayer' or 'pray for him'.

We often consider the work of Christ in reconciling man to God as 'The Atonement', however, it must be understood that 'The Atonement' is what our LORD created by His Great Sacrifice.

We often hear people say things like: 'when the LORD performed the atonement...'. This would be similar to saying: 'when the LORD performed the earth...' Although it is understood that 'perform' or 'do' means something slightly different in this context, it is a little awkward.

A look at 2 Nephi 9 reveals that The Atonement is an infinite atonement. We know that our LORD only hung from the cross for a period of hours and was dead but three days. Indeed, the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God was but an instant in eternity, but the effects, that is, The Atonement, is infinite.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

[Demand of] Justice = Intelligences = I AM

The Plan of the Father = The Gospel of Jesus [THE] Christ = The Atonement

Key to Atonement = Jesus Christ, who is universal love by all intelligences, his suffering and death on the cross [Alma 34:9, 11]. Perhaps a reread Abraham in sacrificing his son has same similitude as the Father sacrificing HIS only Son.

Now, if Christ did not fore fill his part, as He asked to have that cup remove in the garden, what happens to FATHER'S creation?

[Guest tomk]

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Now, if Christ did not fore fill his part, as He asked to have that cup remove in the garden, what happens to FATHER'S creation?

Everything would have been subject to the Devil ... the final fate being a return to raw intelligence ... to be scooped-up one day to begin the journey towards Godhood again, this time, hopefully with better results.

From D&C 76:

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

Now read very carefully what Christ says here:

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

If we read between the lines here a bit -- we can see that there WILL be an end to their punishment one day -- but only those who are condemned to that punishment understand the depth and breadth of it.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

Now, above it says "endless" punishment and "eternal" punishment.

I would say this speaks more to the NATURE of the punishment rather than the DURATION of the punishment.

God's name is Endless. God's name is also Eternal. Endless punishment is God's kind of punishment. Eternal punishment is God's kind of punishment.

From Moses 7:

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

D&C 19: 10, 12

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

• • •

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

[Hemidakota]

If Justice cannot be met, the creation formed by the FATHER will have to return to outer darkness or chaos. Does Lucifer have supervision over chaos? Could the FATHER saved the creation if Christ failed in the garden and on the cross?

[Guest tomk]

If Justice cannot be met, the creation formed by the FATHER will have to return to outer darkness or chaos. Does Lucifer have supervision over chaos? Could the FATHER saved the creation if Christ failed in the garden and on the cross?

I'd say that's moot (the "what if Christ had failed" part). He didn't fail, so let's not worry about "what if" Ya know?

I suppose Satan will rule over his own dark kingdom. I wouldn't call it supervision. How do you supervise over chaos? I think Satan's final fate will be total dissolution. He will cease to be a spirit and will be just raw, unorganized intelligence. He will not be destroyed, just unorganized. That is the fate of all of those who receive not the light after they have had the Son revealed unto them. Satan knows who Christ is. He knows Christ better than we do right know, for he does not have a veil over his memory. But he won't follow Christ, even after knowing Him.

Interestingly, those who are Sons of Perdition are also those who are (or who would have been) candidates for the Celestial Kingdom. Nobody enters the Celestial Kingdom without having had the Son revealed unto him by the Father (the Second Comforter). To have that kind of witness, and then turn away. Notice the order in which the Kingdoms are discussed in D&C 76. They are not described "in order". The reason for that is because Christ is drawing a parallel between the Celestial Kingdom and Outer Darkness. The occupants of either one will be those who have had that kind of witness.

I'd say, probably not. It's what makes Christ's sacrifice so unique and powerful. That there was no other way. I would think if there had been another way, Father would have pursued it. Nobody else was capable of carrying out the Father's will. Christ was unique in that ability.

[Hemidakota]

Chaos is 'controlled' by the FATHER. Lucifer has no power or authority to rule over darkness or chaos.

To understand 'fully' about the Atonement, you have to look beyond the normal worldly responses. You will grasp a deeper meaning for the love and afinitity with the Savior and the FATHER.

I will have to stop here. It is a subject that most in the church doesn't fully understand, except the normal Sunday School classes or a brief Sacrament talk. However, grasping the 'full' meaning of the atonement, gives a deeper and richer meaning to life itself.

Last, even the FATHER could not save HIS children. [Acts 4:12, Mosiah 3:17]

Thanks...:)

[Guest tomk]

We seem to be talking past each other.

And I agree, you should not reveal things that are for YOU and YOU ALONE.