What is the doctrine of the Atonement?


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Just not me, this subject is well known even among the Council of 12 [actually 15], some Seventies, a few Mission Presidents, few SP, some notable LDS scholars, who sat down and studied this thorough, came away with a deeper love for the FATHER and Savior. It puts away the endless pursuit of worldly science and gives credence to a new meaning of life.

Tom, I wasn't belittling or making myself a better person than anyone here, it is more of sharing something that is marvelous and beautiful.

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Just not me, this subject is well known even among the Council of 12 [actually 15], some Seventies, a few Mission Presidents, few SP, some notable LDS scholars, who sat down and studied this thoroughly, then came away with a deeper love for the FATHER and Savior. It puts away the endless pursuit of worldly science and gives credence to a new meaning of life.

Tom, I wasn't belittling or making myself a better person than anyone here, it is more of sharing something that is marvelous and beautiful.

To all, this is why I am saying, make it personal and to study this topic thoroughly. You will find along the path, the answer to life itself.

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Just not me, this subject is well known even among the Council of 12 [actually 15], some Seventies, a few Mission Presidents, few SP, some notable LDS scholars, who sat down and studied this thoroughly, then came away with a deeper love for the FATHER and Savior. It puts away the endless pursuit of worldly science and gives credence to a new meaning of life.

Tom, I wasn't belittling or making myself a better person than anyone here, it is more of sharing something that is marvelous and beautiful.

To all, this is why I am saying, make it personal and to study this topic thoroughly. You will find along the path, the answer to life itself.

Well, I actually thought I understood it pretty well.

Apparently you don't think I understand it that well. I guess I would tend to agree, since no man can really understand the majesty of the Atonement, right?

Your most recent statement doesn't seem to leave me with anywhere to go as far as discussion.

I can't comment on something you won't or can't talk about.

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A few hints where dropped to see whether or not the person can receive the answer. Remember, I keep dropping hints on the term 'spirit[ural] maturity'? This is not to be labeled as an arrogant statement but a simple observation that I have come to learn over-time from on high and those who taught me. Even the Savior was taught, line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept; as we do in our earthly probation.

There are principles, over-time I had to wait in order to be ready to hear the answer – more maturity was required. One of which comes to mind, which still stomps me and why I am here on this forum, is ‘Adam's Rib.’ I am closer now than anytime in the last thirty years [or so] of my life, thanks for the insight of the few here. I am very grateful and humbled by those few.

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A few hints where dropped to see whether or not the person can receive the answer. Remember, I keep dropping hints on the term 'spirit[ural] maturity'? This is not to be labeled as an arrogant statement but a simple observation that I have come to learn over-time from on high and those who taught me. Even the Savior was taught, line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept; as we do in our earthly probation.

There are principles, over-time I had to wait in order to be ready to hear the answer – more maturity was required. One of which comes to mind, which still stomps me and why I am here on this forum, is ‘Adam's Rib.’ I am closer now than anytime in the last thirty years [or so] of my life, thanks for the insight of the few here. I am very grateful and humbled by those few.

I guess I am not ready to receive those things (yet).

Tom

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  • Matthew 26:39

    Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

  • Matthew 26:42

    He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

Jesus, speaking to James and John, the sons of Zebedee said: "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" "We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with".

The cup, I believe, represents God's wrath (Jeremiah 25:15) which Jesus took in our place. The baptism Jesus refers to, in the quote above, refers to his death. Do Mormons believe this is where (in the Garden) the Atonement began and at the Cross is where it was finished (when Christ said "It is finished" and died)?

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MARK 14:36

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

MAT 26:39

39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

LUKE 22:43-44

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

MAT 26:42

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

D&C 19:15-19

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink[Christ did not know if He could do it]

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

ACTS 4:12

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved [including the Father].

The Atonement was the Father's atonement. That was Christ's act of submission...submission to the Father's will and power.....so that the Father could step in and save us...restore us back to Himself....using the Son as His proxy.

glory be to the Father

This is not just Christ being poetic or humble. He literally means -- THE FATHER DID THIS, NOT ME. I WAS HIS PROXY.

Am I close?

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Do Mormons believe this is where (in the Garden) the Atonement began and at the Cross is where it was finished (when Christ said "It is finished" and died)?

The Atonement will never be finished. It is infinite. Its beginning? We are pressed to discover that it has one. John said the Lamb was slain 'from the foundation of the world'. (Rev. 13:8)

We hear people say that the LORD 'brought about the Atonement in the garden and on the cross.' This is true, but what He endured was NOT the Atonement, but the Sacrifice that made the Atonement.

What occured on the following Sunday morning was also expedient for the Atonement. Without a resurrection, mankind could NOT be brought to sit with the LORD once again.

The Bible Dictionary in LDS printed Bibles contains this statement under the heading of 'Atonement':'By his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed, his divine Sonship, his sinless life, the shedding of his blood in the garden of Gethsemane, his death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, he made a perfect atonement for all mankind.'

Perhaps some seem to think that this view somehow belittles what our LORD endured and performed at Calvary. A look at Mosiac Law concerning the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement will reveal the many requirements were to be fulfilled in bringing about the atonement. The process began with the selection of the animals and did not end simply with the death of the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, but the burning, the sprinkling, and other works had also to be carried out.

The death of the sacrifice is the most startling and vivid aspect of the events involved in making atonement. It was carried out in very public view at the door of the tabernacle. Certainly the public image of Jesus hanging from the cross where He gave up the ghost is the climactic and startling crux of His Sacrifice.

Mormons make no effort to belittle our Saviour's crucifixion. We do not pretend that it was somewhere else that He accomplished what all Christiandom knows He did on the cross. He did not die in the Garden or at the foundation of the world.

The talk among Mormons about Gethsemane is concerning the sufferings our LORD endured there. Perhaps there have been some misinformed or mistaken LDS persons who have promoted some notion that the Great Sacrifice of the Lamb of God was complete as our LORD exited the garden into the hands of the Betrayer. This would definitely contradict the scriptures, our Church leaders, and in particular the straight forward statement in our Bible Dictionary that I quoted.

The true LDS view of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is that it is the infinite state of reconciliation of man to God brought about by the propitiation of the Son of God. The death of the Son is NOT the propitiation itself, but the Son is the propitiation.

A look again at the Mosiac sacrifices will reveal that it was not the blow of the instrument of death, nor the death of the animal itself that was the sacrifice, but the animal was the sacrifice. Just the same, the Lamb of God is the Great Sacrifice offered by God.

-a-train

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...

...

To understand 'fully' about the Atonement, you have to look beyond the normal worldly responses. You will grasp a deeper meaning for the love and afinitity with the Savior and the FATHER.

...

...

Hemidakota:

Can you elaborate on this?

You say there is a deeper understanding of the Atonement to be had, and that the Brethren and a few of the Seventy understand it, but most of the Church does not.

I want to apologize for my arrogance. I guess I have prided myself on my understanding of the Atonement and Intelligence, etc.

I'm willing to learn what you have to share.

I realize that sometimes these kinds of things are not utterable. They are unspeakable. But perhaps you could provide some hints, some clues, perhaps some scriptures to help me understand? Such that, if I am ready, I will receive the answer into my heart.

Tom

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Don't get me wrong, Hemidakota. I've studied the Atonement in great depth over the last twenty years, but I just hesitate to share all of it, meaning the more profound aspects, here because I learned line upon line and precept upon precept, and others here are just starting out and we're all at different levels. hence my very simple post early on:

In order to understand the Atonement, one must understand the Fall of Adam. In order to understand the Fall of Adam, one must understand our pre-mortal existence...

Yes, simple principles are hidden for a reason. The deeper, more profound aspects of the doctrine are what tend to obscure the simplicity of the truth, and our understanding of them is sometimes on the side of speculation. It is the simple and basic principles where I believe the Spirit can be most effective.

Just my humble opinion.

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Don't get me wrong, Hemidakota. I've studied the Atonement in great depth over the last twenty years, but I just hesitate to share all of it, meaning the more profound aspects, here because I learned line upon line and precept upon precept, and others here are just starting out and we're all at different levels. hence my very simple post early on:

Yes, simple principles are hidden for a reason. The deeper, more profound aspects of the doctrine are what tend to obscure the simplicity of the truth, and our understanding of them is sometimes on the side of speculation. It is the simple and basic principles where I believe the Spirit can be most effective.

Just my humble opinion.

I have to agree; noting the responses. Without gospel maturiy, there is no understanding on what is presented.

Thanks :)

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I'm enjoying all the posts and far be it from me to censure or censor anyone. I rejoice in the simplicity of the gospel as Nephi did and while I appreciate the profound and minute details, which often are fascinating, it is the basic principles that I relish and where I tend to feel the Spirit most in discussions. I hope I have not put anybody off.

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Hemidakota:

I just want to say again - I'm sorry for my impatience, and when you are ready I'd really like to hear what you have to share about the Atonement.

Don't be...I had to take this up with the spirit; ensuring the words of choice were right and meaningful. For others, it may troublesome when it is fully exposed - meaning, I cannot grasp it depth. I writing a paper on small portion that deals with Intelligence since it is the basis of our identity with GOD.

Tom, you are one that will 'go far' [D&C 130 18:21]. Don't fret on issues that sounds unusual. When I view some of your posts, it brings me comfort knowing there is more than one here who is seeking.

I am in the same boat as others here, always seeking further to grasp the truth with greater clarity. Some of which, I will post over-time, to share with others. For my probation is about to expire as I already talked about in a testimony.

This quote is needed for some here:

The Gospel does not claim…possession of ultimate knowledge…man is ordinarily allowed to work out for himself the truths of the universe and to organize them into systems of thought which he may follow profitably. Knowledge is given directly by [God] only when it becomes indispensable to do so… The distinguishing feature of the Gospel is that it possesses the key to the true philosophy of life. In outline it offers the entire plan if life in the universe…

I keep plugging on the short paper and post it in the blog section when completed....;)

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