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skalenfehl

The Passion of the Christ

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I saw the movie a number of times. There are many good portrayals in the movie. There are many scenes I don't like.

One scene I thought was particularly touching was crucifixion scene. How brutual the Roman soldiers treated Jesus pounding nails into his hands and He only cries for His Father to forgive the soldiers. It is a love I can't comprehend and a portrayal of the merciful loving Christ I have come to know in my own life.

On the whole the resurrection scene was thirty seconds long. Why Mel Gibson didn't focus more on Christ overcoming death is confusing to me. You can also see an unbalanced perspective of Mary in the movie. And the scourging scene was far overdone. Christ was whipped thirty nine times with a scourge according to Bruce McConkie. Probably near one hundred times in the movie.

It is a movie that had some great work in it but also had some scenes that strayed from the scriptures. I own the movie and will likely watch some scenes of it in the future as it helps me understand some parts of the Atonement a little better.

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Do I support the movie? It's a movie.

What do I think of Mel's behaviour? A bit sad.

What do I think of alcoholism? A bit sad.

Do I believe people say what they really think and feel under the influence of alcohol? I have no idea what other people think and feel, only what they do and say.

Do I agree with what the Rabbi says? In his words, the Talmud says you know a man by what he says when he is angry. Is he filled with hatred?

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The movie is not anti-semetic in any sense. Anyone who claims it is is just denying the truth.

Watch the movie, its great.

Is September Dawn anti-Mormon? Should we all judge Brigham Young to be a religious dictator who advocated murder?

Should the Jews be portrayed as murderers of God?

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I did not watch the movie for a few reasons. The greatest and most important of these is, I felt like the movie portrays the Savior of mankind as a ragdoll that could be beaten and smitten without mercy and relinquishment. This disrespect for the tabernacle that housed the Redeemer, though it was in image, permeates to our lives. The influences around us affect us, whether we like it or not. My friends in high school weren't the best, but I noticed certain traits that I picked up from them. I never hung out with a lot of them but their influence was still there.

When we subject ourselves to "R" rated material, the influence may not be immediately felt, but it opens a door to the adversary. Then he can know where to hit you with his "fiery darts."

Also someone else mentioned that they "didn't particularly feel the Spirit." Well, ponder this. Do you think the Spirit will testify to the disrespect of The Messiah? He testifies of truth, of righteousness, and godliness. These "barbaric" acts are not conducive to the Spirit. Violence offends the Spirit. Whether it be in war, or whether it be the violence between individual bodies, or watching or playing video games or movies that invoke that contentious environment.

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Also someone else mentioned that they "didn't particularly feel the Spirit." Well, ponder this. Do you think the Spirit will testify to the disrespect of The Messiah? He testifies of truth, of righteousness, and godliness. These "barbaric" acts are not conducive to the Spirit. Violence offends the Spirit. Whether it be in war, or whether it be the violence between individual bodies, or watching or playing video games or movies that invoke that contentious environment.

I think this point is worth considering. First of all, according to Mormon doctrine, Christ's most poignant suffering was not on the cross, but in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he sweat "great drops of blood" (D&C 19). Second, why would anyone become a "voyeur" (excuse the harshness) to his nailing on the cross? The Garden was a private moment, which not even the sleeping apostles witnessed, but later recorded, possibly by revelation. I would think that this is something personal, and if revealed at all, will be done to individuals, not on Hollywood screens produced by Mel Gibson. That almost desecrates what is holy. And then to blame the Jews for this (and Christ was a Jew, who asked forgiveness of his persecutors), seems almost bizzare.

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I have never seen the movie. I have a small child and I've never managed to have a block of time without her around to see it.

Regarding anti semeticism.

If someone hires an assassin to kill a man. Who is guilty? The assassin or the person who hired the assassin?

The Jews chose Barabbas over Christ. They called for Him to be crucified. So in that regard the Jews were just as responsible for Christ's death as the Romans were.

I did not watch the movie for a few reasons. The greatest and most important of these is, I felt like the movie portrays the Savior of mankind as a ragdoll that could be beaten and smitten without mercy and relinquishment. This disrespect for the tabernacle that housed the Redeemer, though it was in image, permeates to our lives. The influences around us affect us, whether we like it or not. My friends in high school weren't the best, but I noticed certain traits that I picked up from them. I never hung out with a lot of them but their influence was still there.

When we subject ourselves to "R" rated material, the influence may not be immediately felt, but it opens a door to the adversary. Then he can know where to hit you with his "fiery darts."

Also someone else mentioned that they "didn't particularly feel the Spirit." Well, ponder this. Do you think the Spirit will testify to the disrespect of The Messiah? He testifies of truth, of righteousness, and godliness. These "barbaric" acts are not conducive to the Spirit. Violence offends the Spirit. Whether it be in war, or whether it be the violence between individual bodies, or watching or playing video games or movies that invoke that contentious environment.

You really think that the Romans who tortured Him in prison, beating Him, and nailing Him to the cross, and who knows what else, really had any respect for Jesus Christ as their God? I don't think so.

Has anyone ever been to Church and totally thought that someone's talk was boring and you didn't get anything out of it, but then someone a few rows down was in tears and thought it was a beautiful talk? Just because YOU did not feel the Spirit during the talk does not mean that the talk was not inspired and given by the Spirit.

Mel was working with what knowledge he had to help people get closer to Christ. I have seen positives come out of this movie. I've heard people say, "I never understood what a big deal it was, I think I understand Christ's sacrifice better now." I have gotten this from both Mormons and people of other beliefs.

On a personal level, the Spirit told me to tell my mother to have my brother, who has Asperger's Syndrome, to watch the Passion of Christ. She was surprised when I said this, and she then prayed and got her own spiritual confirmation that yes, he did indeed need to watch this film; and he has.

Regarding Mel's anti semetic remarks while drunk, I believe drunk behavior causes you to fall back on old thoughts and behavior patterns. I grew up with a racist. My father was racist. My best friend in middle school was half black, she was half white so that made it okay in my mind to be buddies with her, but then when my dad found out he was livid. I lived with his racist thoughts all my life while growing up. Even though, at twenty eight years old, I know better I still have racist thoughts from time to time. It's hard to get that crap out of your skull when it's been ingrained in your thinking from birth. And that's all while SOBER. I say enough stupid stuff as it is, I can only imagine the extra amount of stupidity that'd come out of my mouth while drunk. Oy.

I gotta give Mel props for apologizing and seeking help. Asking for help takes humility and courage.

I believe we should not judge Mel for his mistakes or for creating an R rated film about Christ, a film that I know has done good in the world in bringing people closer to Christ. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

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The Passion of the Christ is a powerful meditation on the suffering of Christ in his last hours. It is not a comprehensive gospel, nor is it a resurrection tale. It was never intended to be such. Rather, Gibson's focus is narrow, and communicates in a powerful, and, imho, Spirit-anointed, presentation. I am reminded that God both loves us deeply and hates sin passionately. I will never take sacrament lightly again!

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I believe we should not judge Mel for his mistakes or for creating an R rated film about Christ, a film that I know has done good in the world in bringing people closer to Christ. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

I think your post is well-meaning, but seriously, is someone converted by a Hollywood movie likely to last the distance? A person would become more informed by reading Talmadge's Jesus The Christ, than by watching Mel's version of Christianity. There's far more to Christianity than nails penetrating flesh, and raw emotion. Anyone with an ounce of humanity can be moved by this, but how many will translate that into real sacrifice? It may well be a start. It may well inspire many. And it may well be a good thing in many aspects if it sparks thought. But will this translate into real change? Or just a pity for someone who died a heroic death? Did it change Mel? Seems not, but his bank account became MUCH healthier because of this.

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This thread isn't about Mel Gibson, though or anti-semetism. :ahntah:

You can't discuss the film without discussing the creator and producer, and the motivations behind it. The anti-Semitism debates have followed this film like flies following a garbage truck, or eagles gathering where the carcass is, because one has to discuss the motivations behind the film.

Leaving this out would be like discussing the creation of the earth, as long as we leave God out of it. It could have all been an accident, but maybe there was a purpose?

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You can't discuss the film without discussing the creator and producer, and the motivations behind it. The anti-Semitism debates have followed this film like flies following a garbage truck, or eagles gathering where the carcass is, because one has to discuss the motivations behind the film.

Then, let's deal with it. The Anti-Semitism charge is bunk. The Christian gospel is anti-Semitic, in the view of Orthodox Jews. We say they got it wrong. The Talmud declares Jesus to be a false prophet. I recall watching one talk show where a rabbi was saying that if Christians wanted Jews to trust them they would descripturalize the gospel of John! What hubris...telling us to edit the Word of God!

The Jewish community examined the Passion with a microscope...just looking for any hint of anti-Semitism--any reason for offense. Well, self-fulfilling prophecy is mightily effective.

In reality, the Passion was a Christian film, about the suffering of Jesus. It wasn't about the Jews. The Romans came across looking pretty sadistic, as far as that goes.

Leaving this out would be like discussing the creation of the earth, as long as we leave God out of it. It could have all been an accident, but maybe there was a purpose?

I disagree. The Passion should be judged on its own merits. We are all fallen vessels, and to condemn the inspiration that God gifted Mel with, because of his own struggle with sin...well whoever is without sin, let him cast the first stone. A lot of babies will get thrown out with that bathwater.

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"Then, let's deal with it. The Anti-Semitism charge is bunk. The Christian gospel is anti-Semitic, in the view of Orthodox Jews. We say they got it wrong. The Talmud declares Jesus to be a false prophet. I recall watching one talk show where a rabbi was saying that if Christians wanted Jews to trust them they would descripturalize the gospel of John! What hubris...telling us to edit the Word of God!"

Don't forget about all the books left out of the Bible...

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Then, let's deal with it. The Anti-Semitism charge is bunk. The Christian gospel is anti-Semitic, in the view of Orthodox Jews. We say they got it wrong. The Talmud declares Jesus to be a false prophet. I recall watching one talk show where a rabbi was saying that if Christians wanted Jews to trust them they would descripturalize the gospel of John! What hubris...telling us to edit the Word of God!

Really, PC? Well here is the word of God I believe in, 2 Nephi 29:

1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel; 2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

Is God "anti-Semitic"?

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This story was posted by a guy many years ago on another message board, arguing about violence in movies. I think he makes good points.

If violence portrayed on film is classified as 'entertainment,' I can understand and would support such an application of the statement above. If violence is merely for 'entertainment' or shock value, it falls into the 'wanton' category that others have condemned--and I would join my voice with theirs and yours in such condemnation.

However, not ALL movies are intended to be 'entertainment.' They may be held as such by some individuals, and may even have 'a side-effect' of being such--but many have the potential to be MUCH more than that. So it is with violence itself.

Let me give you an example: While attending BYU, I worked as an assistant shepherd. No, not at the MTC or anything--I mean literally. The year after I returned from my mission, I worked for the BYU Sheep Unit, where I shepherded a flock of 250+ sheep. The man I worked for--the Head Shepherd--was an older gentleman by the name of Warren Kuhl. He had worked with sheep for many years, and had a wisdom about him that I admired--he was a 'shepherd philosopher' of sorts. I loved working for him, and he and I shared many great conversations, both spiritual and secular. I learned a lot during that fall and winter about taking care of sheep--feeding, breeding, lambing--as well as about life itself from Warren.

In the spring of that year, Warren asked me to come down to one of the buildings one afternoon. He wanted to teach me some additional things about sheep. Once I arrived, he told me that we had to round up a group of them to take to slaughter house (which was located right there as part of BYU's farm). He asked if I would be willing to participate and help. I willingly did so. We rounded up the sheep, and drove them into the slaughter house. He showed me how the sheep were killed by using a special type of device (I can't remember the name). This was done by holding the foot-long metal cylinder vertically against the top of the sheep's skull. Then, by pushing a button, the device would fire a metal piston straight down through the sheep's skull and into it's brain, thus killing it instantly. Warren invited me to participate in the slaughter.

I have never hunted, nor killed anything. I am person if gentle disposition--never prone to violence nor bloodshed, so it was difficult for me to do. But Warren's approach was one of quiet invitation, not abrasive cajoling, and I did so--holding the sheeps' heads while he pulled the triggers, and even pulling that trigger once myself for one of the sheep.

Later that afternoon, as we tended the rest of flock, Warren and I talked about that experience. He explained why he invited me to participate. Warren was a quiet, gentle man--a man who loved his sheep, though NOT a vegetarian nor an animal rights activist. He felt that in today's 'convenience obsessed society,' too many people are so used to going to the supermarket and picking up their prepackaged, weighed, cellophane-wrapped bundles of meat, they do not give a second thought to the lives that are given on their behalves. We spoke of life--of death----of stewardships--of the earth and all it's creations--of God's plan. We spoke of reverence for those of God's creations that we are stewards over, those animals who's lives we take in order to sustain our own. We spoke of bloodshed, and giving thanks. The slaughter was a violent and bloody experience. It was a unique and singular experience. It was a spiritual experience that had a profound and deeply moving affect on me--one that affects my attitudes about violence and life and death to this very day. And we were 'just' talking about sheep.

Would such an experience have been appropriate for children? Most definitely NOT. Was such an experience 'entertainment'? Most definitely NOT. Was such an experience 'violent'? Most definitely. Was it appropriate? Most definitely. I am grateful for Warren's wisdom in teaching me the value of life--of non-violence--of gratitude for those who give their lives through such so we may live.

Wanton violence is NEVER appropriate--especially in entertainment. Such is--and SHOULD be--condemned by The First Presidency. But not all violence is mere entertainment, nor sport--nor are all movies.

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all I can say is the spirit caught me whilst watching the Lamb of God and was so strong I was violently and physically sick - the violence is wanton because its unnecessary to capture the spirit and the emotion of the event - we can never truly empathise with what Christ went through so the violence is just extra.

I love horror movies and anything with a good and gruesome murder (so yes as a Latter Day Saint I probably watch way too much gratuitous violence) in it but to me making this violent is somehow wrong.

-Charley

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I saw The Passion. I was moved to tears. I don't think I ever fully understood what Christ had been willing to endure on our behalf until I saw that film. I've seen many images of the crucifixion in my life and they are all clean and clinical compared to the raw brutality of that film. I think that was necessary.

Understanding that the Atonement was so much more than the crucifixion and that Christ's real suffering took place in Gethsemane was brought more into sharp focus by the film too because it made me think how much worse his suffering in the garden must have been - how that is so often glossed over in films and even in Sunday School lessons because we just simply cannot comprehend.

I do not understand at all how the film can have been regarded as anti-semitic. Most of the cast of characters are Jews. The heroes are Jews. Those who follow Christ are Jews. His disciples are Jews. His family are Jews. Yes,those baying for his blood and shouting "Crucify him!" are also Jews. Caiaphas was a Jew. Those are facts. Those facts are in the gospels. We cannot change those facts. The events took place in Judea. Most of the people involved were Jews. Yet the real barbarism in the film comes from the Roman soldiers, not from any Jews. Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution, it was the Roman soldiers who scourged him, who plaited thorns into a crown and pressed it down onto his head, who mocked him and reviled him. If anything the film could be accused of being anti-Roman rather than anti-Semitic. But we cannot change history. Caiaphas and others wanted Jesus out of the way and dead was as good a way as any of eliminating him. We cannot deny that happened. If to portray the truth is anti-Semitic then Christianity must be anti-Semitic.

What Mel Gibson's father believed and how Mel Gibson behaved when arrested DUI is irrelevant to the impact the film had on me. It made me realise just how deeply Christ loves us to have been able to go through all that on our behalf, and how much he loves his Heavenly Father when he pleaded if there be any other way and yet nevertheless when he knew that there wasn't he was able to say "Thy will be done."

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Really, PC? Well here is the word of God I believe in, 2 Nephi 29:

Is God "anti-Semitic"?

To your 2nd question, no. To your first, you'll have to make the connection for me...I'm not sure what you're driving at.

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