Some questions for Mormons

[Andrew777]

I have no problem with you citing pro-mormon websites for questions of your doctrine, but if the only "evidence" you will consider for the Bible's ultimate authority on all things, is from pro-mormon sites, then it doesn't seem like you are very interested in the complete truth, does it?

I spent 18 years of my life in the Church of the Nazarene, two of those years in a private Christian school. I spent every summer in bible camp, in tent meetings and learning about the Bible. My mother is married to a Nazarene minister and I helped him do his assignments when he went through Canadian Nazarene College to get ordained. I've been to more different denominations then you can probably count. Baptists, Quakers, Methodists, Pentecostals (I have to say Pentecostals made me feel the most uncomfortable), ect... I spent a year going to a Roman Catholic church with a girl I was going to marry, and the two years before becoming LDS in the Anglo-Catholic church because I liked the old feel to it and the pomp and ceremony. I've read the NIV version of the Bible over a dozen times. I've read every sermon from John Wesley and probably have heard as much from Billy Graham as is humanely possible, Billy was one of my heroes as a kid.

How dare you suggest I'm not interested in the truth. I pray daily for the spirit's guidance and to have truth revealed to me. As you can see I've seeked the Lord's truth since I was a small child. Who do you think is guiding me, when I feel the power of the Holy Spirit? I know it's the Holy Spirit and when I pray I pray to our Heavenly Father just as you do.

You make latter day saints out to be this group of close minded, semi-cultists, that the church begrudgingly shoots out tidbits of lies too and we all follow along like sheep with no interest in hearing counterpoints or other views. You realize there are LDS schools and universities, that LDS members have been hearing these things and debating them for about 180 years, it's not like we're all of a sudden going to see something you've copied and pasted somewhere from an anti-mormon website and say "Oh! No one has ever thought of that before in the last 180 years, I'm wrong!". There's libraries full of LDS books on theology, on the bible and biblical truths, on the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's life. Most of us pray as the best form of guidance, we go right to the source: God. I do this because there is so much contention and misinformation in this world.

We also respect the Bible, we aren't anti-bible as you seem to imply in a few posts. I love my Bible it's what guided me to the Church of Jesus Christ, I've read it a dozen times, I especially love Acts and the letters of Paul. It wasn't the book of Mormon that convinced me the LDS church was right, it was picking up my bible and going through it and seeing that the trinity isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible, seeing the prophecies about the apostasy and restoration, as well as many other things were shown to me that I hadn't beem taught before. Things I was taught in error before. It was then prayer and the other scriptures that led me to realizing that Joseph Smith was the person that restored the church.

As for the 'false' prophecies, once again it's something that we've all probably seen copied and pasted a dozens of times. You can go here and read a 'Pro-Mormon' rebuttal if you're interested in the truth yourself:

The Nature of Prophets and Prophecy

"They will circulate falsehoods to destroy your reputation, and also will seek to take your life"

--Angel Moroni to Joseph Smith (1823)

Well they managed the latter and are still doing the former, it just doesn't end I suppose.

[ztodd]

people all over the world have come up with different beliefs about God. Obviously sincerity and prayer are not enough to guard against false claims. That is why God has given us the Bible, so that we will have a standard measurement for truth claims.

While Christians value prayer and seek direction from God, that is not the Biblical method of testing a prophet.

But even with the Bible, people all over the world have still come up with different beliefs about God. So obviously the bible is not enough to guard against false claims.

[xanmad33]

Can you give an example. I know of no teachings in the D&C, or PofGP, that contradict anything in the BofM.

1-**The Book of Mormon teaches --One God--

Alma 11:27-39, 44

2 Nephi 31:21

Mormon 7:7

3 Nephi11:27

Testimony of Three Witnesses

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--plural gods--

Section 121:32

Section 132:18-20, 37

2-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God is a spirit--

Alma 18:26-28

Alma 22:8-11

**Doctrines and covenants teaches--God has a body

Section 130:22

3-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God dwells in the heart

Alma 34:36

**Doctrines and covenants teaches--God does not dwell in the heart

section 130:3

4-**The book of Mormon teaches--Creation - One God

2 Nephi 2:14

Jacob 4:9

Pearl of Great Price

Book of Moses Chapter 2

**Pearl of Great Price teaches--creation, many gods

Book of Abraham

Chapter 4

Chapter 5

5-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God cannot lie

Ether 3:12

2 Nephi 9:34

**Pearl of Great Price teaches--God commands lying

Book of Abraham

Chapter 2:22-25

6-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God's Word Unchangeable

Alma 41:8

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--God's Word Can Change

Section 56:4-5

7-**The Book of Mormon teaches--No Pre-Existence of Man

Jacob 4:9

Alma 18:28, 34-36

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--man pre-existed

Section 93:23, 29-33

Pearl of Great Price

Book of Abraham

Chapter 3:18, 21-23

8-**The Book of Mormon teaches-- That Polygamy is Condemned

Jacob 1:15

Jacob 2:24

Jacob 3:5

Mosiah 11:2

**Doctrine and covenants teaches: Polygamy is Commanded

Section 132:1, 37-39, 61

There are more if your interested ...

Here is my take on this.

After the deaths of the original Apostles and before the Nicene creed, there were many different beliefs about the gospel and its doctrine. After the creed was established, there were many who were left on the outside looking in. These were either forced to give up their established beliefs, or were persecuted.

When it came time to gather religious texts, there was a natural tendency to make the texts fit with the creed. Some things were taken out, and others had the meanings changed. All this was done so that the biblical writings would fit the belief that was established.

What proofs do you have to support any of this theory?

You make some very good points here and worth taking a look at.

In the case with the Book of Mormon, translating it from english to any other language, there was no taking things out to make it fit doctrines. Great care was taken to make sure the language it was translated into kept the same meanings that were conveyed in english.

Hopefully others will chip in here, because I am not that familiar with the how the BofM was translated to other languages, but that's how I see it.

The Book of Mormon states that it is the "most correct book". This does not say "only correct book", or "100% correct book". This is because men wrote it and men translated it. Yes, it was translated with the power of G_d, but anytime man is put into the process, errors can creep in. In the case of the Book of Mormon, errors were kept to a minimum because of the influence of G_d in the translation process.

Since Mormons continully claim the Bible is incomplete then why doesn't your prophet restore the lost books or correct the translation?

If your prophet has not felt the need to restore those missing books of the Bible how important can they be?

Joseph Smith did a revised version of the Bible, why doesn't the LDS Church print it?

[Andrew777]

Have you looked at the different scriptures used by different Christian groups. The Bible of the Roman Catholics with additional scriptures is different then the bible of protestants, which is different then the eastern orthodox bible's scriptural cannon, which is different then a gnostic Christians bible, and so on and so on. A little thing called history supports the theory of apostasy in the early years, as well as a huge thing called biblical prophecy. There were Christian groups that debated over the nature of God, methods of baptism, re-baptism, how to pray, over everything, heresy abounded. The East and west disagree on the proper form of the Nicene creed and the authority of the Pope to this day. Protestants today are much like the early Christians in undermining each other and debating over every smallest doctrine.

Your list of supposed contradiction is just another copy and paste from an anti-Mormon website that has been copied and pasted many times before, why not just provide the link so we can go to the site and read everything there and stop wasting everyone's time. There's even a mormon website you've had linked to (have you bothered to go read it) that refutes all these claims because so many people have copied and pasted these exact same things.

BTW you can buy Joseph Smith's translation of the bible at any Mormon book store.

[xanmad33]

But even with the Bible, people all over the world have still come up with different beliefs about God. So obviously the bible is not enough to guard against false claims.

I never said the Bible was a guard against false claims, I said Chritians are called to USE the Bible to guard agains false claims including those made by "prophets"

[THIRDpersonviewer]

1-**The Book of Mormon teaches --One God--

Alma 11:27-39, 44

2 Nephi 31:21

Mormon 7:7

3 Nephi11:27

Testimony of Three Witnesses

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--plural gods--

Section 121:32

Section 132:18-20, 37

2-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God is a spirit--

Alma 18:26-28

Alma 22:8-11

**Doctrines and covenants teaches--God has a body

Section 130:22

3-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God dwells in the heart

Alma 34:36

**Doctrines and covenants teaches--God does not dwell in the heart

section 130:3

4-**The book of Mormon teaches--Creation - One God

2 Nephi 2:14

Jacob 4:9

Pearl of Great Price

Book of Moses Chapter 2

**Pearl of Great Price teaches--creation, many gods

Book of Abraham

Chapter 4

Chapter 5

5-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God cannot lie

Ether 3:12

2 Nephi 9:34

**Pearl of Great Price teaches--God commands lying

Book of Abraham

Chapter 2:22-25

6-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God's Word Unchangeable

Alma 41:8

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--God's Word Can Change

Section 56:4-5

7-**The Book of Mormon teaches--No Pre-Existence of Man

Jacob 4:9

Alma 18:28, 34-36

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--man pre-existed

Section 93:23, 29-33

Pearl of Great Price

Book of Abraham

Chapter 3:18, 21-23

8-**The Book of Mormon teaches-- That Polygamy is Condemned

Jacob 1:15

Jacob 2:24

Jacob 3:5

Mosiah 11:2

**Doctrine and covenants teaches: Polygamy is Commanded

Section 132:1, 37-39, 61

There are more if your interested ...

What proofs do you have to support any of this theory?

Since Mormons continully claim the Bible is incomplete then why doesn't your prophet restore the lost books or correct the translation?

If your prophet has not felt the need to restore those missing books of the Bible how important can they be?

Joseph Smith did a revised version of the Bible, why doesn't the LDS Church print it?

You have very valid claims. To this I suggest:

-READ The Scriptures yourself.(Most important) Forget all the claims made by people. They will not convince you to a point than you have already concluded.

-You cannot read scriptures to take them literally in all cases, and vice versa. That is where you have to have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will impress upon you what is literal and what is not. Though the literal can often be used as a comparison to modern day examples.

-The details are often disputed, but they are the key to defining some doctrines. To correctly interpret these doctrines, we have prophets. Then we go back to the source(scripture) to know for ourselves if it is true. If we cannot look to the scriptures and find the truth, then the assertions made by men are wrong. Again when they conflict, we go the prophet, or to the Spirit. If we are not given the answer, we become patient and wait for an answer, that with enough reading and prayer, we will know the truth.

-The Bible is incomplete, but so is the Book of Mormon. The Church does not hold one over the other. We just know that there is inaccuracies in the Bible, which arise from the changes made by men.

-The Prophet cannot restore the books because it is not the Lord's will at this time. What is a prophet? A man called of God for the administration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To act in authority and by His power for His name and to testify and proclaim to the world that He lives, because he has that power, authority and knowledge from God.

-The Prophet, therefore, does not do his own will. He does the will of Jesus Christ, in whose name he has been called to administer His gospel to the world.

[Andrew777]

You can also go to lds.org and read the inspired version of the bible.

[skalenfehl]

I believe you have made your point about the Bible, but that is your own opinion and your interpretation. I do not believe that you care to understand the context of our scripture and the fact that its context is in perfect harmony. I maintain that you do not understand the Bible's context. I do not believe your intentions here are any more than to continue to bring in anti-mormon propaganda. This thread has already come full circle.

[a-train]

Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84)

No longer teach the gathering and temple never built.

Are you unaware that the LDS Church always has and STILL teaches the gathereing to Independence and that it has and does aggressively buy land in western Missouri?

Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19)

Mormons driven out.

Did you look at that yourself? Verse 18 says 'if Zion do these things'.

Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87)

England and other nations did not join in.

Perhaps you did not notice that the revelation does not indicate that England and/or other nations would engage the American Civil War.

United Order (D&C 104)

V.1 Commanded as everlasting order; V.48 & 53 dissolved and reorganized.

This is supposed to be a failed prediction? What was predicted?

Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111)

No riches found, debts not paid.

What portion of this section says that the riches of Salem would pay current debts held?

Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 (D&C 114)

He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn't God have known he was going to die before the next spring?

Do you think that is why God told Him to 'settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise'? How could he have been expected to 'bear glad tidings unto all the world' while still alive?

New gathering place and temple in Far West (D&C 115)

LDS driven out, never built the temple.

Did you not know that the Church owns and maintains the site to this day and has every intention of building there when the LORD commands?

Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths (D&C 124)

Temple and house not completed

Are you unaware that both were completed and the Smith home (the Nauvoo Mansion) stands to this day? I was there the summer before last. Did you hear that the temple, which was destroyed, has been rebuilt?

Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15)

Christ did not return.

Did you somehow miss the statement there that says: 'I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.'?

US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.)

It doesn't and is not destroyed.

Did you actually read that? His prediction was concerning the loss of power over the Congress by the current party which DID occur.

I think your main trouble could be easily solved if you personally looked up the references the anti-mormons throw out there. They are counting on us not bothering to do so.

-a-train

[Dale]

Ok lets pretend for a minute I believe the Book of Mormon, If I truly believe the Book of Mormon, doctrinally, how do I accept the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price ?These books teach different concepts that often contradict the BOM.

1.And in regard to the Bible, does translation always lessen scripture's value or change its teaching?

2.What about the Book of Mormon? How many translations have been made of it? Is it less reliable in French or German?

3.Does the church put a disclaimer on the Book of Mormon in other languages for translational errors as they do with the Bible? If not, why not?

4.If professional LDS translators can reliably take the English Book of Mormon into French, why can't professional translators take the Greek New Testament into English?

I added numbers to break apart your questions.

1.It can depending on who translated it. I have read modern Bible versions i felt whose personal theological views effected the words they used. i will use these modern versions, but when in doubt i use my KJV. I know of Evangelicals who will not use any version of the Bible but the KJV because of similar concerns.

2.Translation itself is not the problem. The Book of Mormon can be trusted as far as its translated correctly. I do not see any concerns about any Book of Mormon translation i know of. I have read many concerns raised about Bible translations. I do not buy into the idea Bible manuscript reliability has been proven within 1%. Evangelicals scholars can claim that but that does not make it so.

Have you ever read the Chicago statement by the 1978 Evangelical council. It was an International Council on Biblical Inerrancy. Article X made this statement: "We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original." Do you have any proof Book of Mormon translations do not represent the best current LDS edition? The Bible i doubt represents the original. With the Book of Mormon i only know of maybe a list of 3,600 changes. And i know of no lists of changes in Book of Mormon that prove variations exist that i can find in various modern Bibles.

3.The Book of Mormon has a disclaimer of sorts on the title page: "And if there are faults they are the mistakes of men;wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgement-seat of Christ." It said earlier in the same text that "The interpretation thereof by the gift of God." Once it was handed to men for translation it could have similar mistakes of men. Since that was written already there was no need to qualify the concerns about the Book of Mormon being translated in a similar as far as it is translated right statement.

4. Translaters can do a good job translating the Greek New Testament manuscripts into english. at the time Joseph Smith wrote the Article of Faith in question he was thinking of Rev.22:18,19 warning against tampering. But he also was concerned the translaters needed to faithfully represent the original auto-graphs. He had some of the X statement in mind. Not to say him and the Evangelical scholars had the same view of the Bible.

I have studied contradiction in the Scriptures. One common one LDS get is that the book has a Trinitarian view of one God. (Alma 11:26-29;Alma 11:38-39) The Book of Mosiah written before Alma say's this one God is Father and Son. "And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth."(Mosiah 15:1-5) At first glance i thought it contradicted the idea of two separate persons who are God. But then i looked past that to understand the whole Book of Mormon. Ether 3:16 teaches that man was created after the body of Christs spirit. "And man have i created after the body of my spirit; and even as i appear until theee to be in the spirit will i appear unto my people in the flesh. 3rd Nephi 11 distinguishes a personality distinct from Jesus known as the Father. So basically the book calls the distinct persons of God one God but they can't literally be because the book teaches the 2nd person of God is a personage. The book has unusual meaning of one God because applied to two distinct persons not one of the same essence at the same time.

Another common one i studied was that the Book of Mormon taught two destinations only. (Mosiah 2:38-41; Alma 11:40-12:18) That Joseph smith changed his mind when coming up with the idea of different kingdoms for the saved. A closer reading of Mosiah 2 reveals it does not deny three inhabited locations. Hell is one destination, heaven will be one inhabited place (vs. 41) and the new earth will also be inhabited. The new earth is not mentioned there, but that inhabited new earth concept is taught in Ether 13 for example. So the Mosiah 2 does not teach all the saved will be in the same destination. I have read the material in question many times and it does not say that other parts of the kingdom will be uninhabited.

Mosiah 11 allows the idea those who die without being taught all these things may be saved. Only those who die in sin after being taught all those things are in danger of the 2nd death. (vs. 36) This would not preclude the idea of persons destined to a part of the kingdom being in hell until they get Telestial glory. It does not say they would get the same spot in the new heaven and new earth as those who get Celestial glory will its a mistake to assume that. The Bible main verses used against D.&C. 76 are John 5:29; Mt. 25:31-46;Daniel 12:2.

Even if an idea is not found in the Book of Mormon the book denies its the final authority on matters of faith and practice. Modern revelation is the authority. So new doctrines can come along the book tells us to expect it.(2 Nephi 29:3-10;2 Nephi 28:29,30) I was not persuaded by the argument the book contains no Mormon Doctrine. To me it does not contradict it as much as my critics books say.

[ztodd]

1-**The Book of Mormon teaches --One God--

Alma 11:27-39, 44

2 Nephi 31:21

Mormon 7:7

3 Nephi11:27

Testimony of Three Witnesses

I hope this helps - from The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship

The oneness of the members of the Godhead is not intended to imply that there are not three separate persons. In the Bible, too, Jesus declared, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) and "I am in the Father, and the Father in me" (John 14:10). That oneness of being was not intended is indicated in his intercessory prayer, when, speaking of his apostles, he prayed "that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us . . . I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one" (John 17:20-23). Clearly, Christ did not intend that his disciples should become physically one and merge with the Godhead. Rather, he envisioned the unity of the Church seen by Paul when he spoke of "edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith" (Ephesians 4:12-13; cf. 2:19-22).

Similarly, in the Book of Mormon, though Christ declared his oneness with the Father (3 Nephi 11:27, 36; 20:35; 28:10), he made it clear that he was teaching what the Father had given him (3 Nephi 11:32; 12:19; 18:4) and declared his intention to ascend to his Father (3 Nephi 15:1; 17:4; 18:27, 35; cf. 26:15; 27:26; 28:1, 4). He also spoke of having received commandments from his Father (3 Nephi 15:14-19; 16:3, 16; 17:2; 20:10, 14, 46; 26:1) and prayed to the Father (3 Nephi 17:14-18, 21; 18:24; 19:19-35). His statement that the Father had sent him (3 Nephi 27:13-14) clearly shows that they were separate individuals.

[a-train]

im secure in the Word of God not my scholars

I would love to talk about the Bible. Could you answer my questions about Jesus Christ?

I'll reprint them:

Jesus of Nazareth is the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is the beginning and the end, He is all powerful and all knowing. As is mentioned in Psalm 139, the presence of His spirit cannot be escaped, and in Isaiah 40 'there is no searching of His understanding.' He has indeed always existed as God.

Was he not once as we are now? Was He not born on the earth in the same manner whereby we have been? Did he not receive a body of flesh and bone through the vessel of the Virgin? Did He not endure childhood and manhood? Did He not physically die? Did He not physically rise from the grave? Did He not show the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet to His disciples and did they not feel them? Did He not say to them: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.' (Luke 24:39) Did He not ascend into heaven having been received into the clouds accompanied by angels? Did He not partake of exaltation? Did He not so rise to sit enthroned in yonder heavens?

-a-train

[Misshalfway]

I can't add much to this conversation. And frankly, I hesitate in joining because conversations like this one go round and round with no end and no resolution. But I will say, that polygamy was condoned in the old testament for some and condemned for others. It is a question for all who follow the Old Testament. And I just watched a special on the History Channel about how there is absolutely no evidence that the Exodus took place or that the Israelites were ever enslaved by the Egyptians. No record other than the Bible itself. If evidence is what you need to have a testimony, you better question the OT as well.

You come here to argue the imperfections of Mormon theology. But, how can you explain all the contradictions that exist in the mainstream Christianity? Some of you believe the trinity. Some believe the Father and Son to be individuals. Some don't even know how to explain what they believe. How do you explain how many churches there are. Many who don't even have the name of Christ in the title? So many doctrines understood and interpreted so differently, how could anyone settle the question with an appeal to the bible. The Christians and Jews and Muslims can't agree on the OT, yet they share the same reverence. Yet, you come here telling us how perfect you all understand the bible. Can you prove that it has been perfectly translated? Can you prove whether or not passages were taken out? Can you prove evil hearts have never tried to use the book to control the people? .

You say that the Bible is the only word of God. In my opinion, that view severely limits God. Why wouldn't you want more information if the Lord were willing to reveal it??

I love the Bible. What would Mormon's do without the account of the birth, life, and death of the Savior? That record is irreplaceable to us. But we believe Christ lived and died for the whole earth. We believe he came to America to minister and that he explained that he would minister other places as well. Yes, we do disagree with mainstream christianity on certain points. I could never understand the trinity. How and why would Christ pray to himself? It is a difference. A big one. But that point, you can't prove with all of your quotes and arguing. It is a point that must be settled by God himself.

We believe God calls prophets. Just like Moses. Moses had to change his revelations to his people because they were wicked. I don't believe God would let man compile a book and let that book be more powerful than His very voice. Why would he stop giving revelation for the current times? It doesn't make sense to me that He would leave us alone to figure it all out without His revelation. Where in the Bible does it teach to get your testimony from scientific or archeological proof? Where does it say that God will stop talking to man? Where does it say that he will not visit his people thru-out the earth? "Other Sheep I have which are not of this fold..."

I love the BofM. Not because J Smith said it was correct. I read it and saw it change my heart and my happiness. I have received more spiritual communications from my reading of it than any other place in my personal study. That is evidence to me. I trust it because God himself gave it to me. Why should I trust your slanted posts over my personal witness from God?

I think that you are saying that you get your spiritual information from proof. Well, we don't. We get our spiritual information from revelation. And then we try to obey, even if it is unpopular.

[Dale]

You:**The Book of Mormon teaches --One God--:Alma 11:27-39, 44

2 Nephi 31:21

Mormon 7:7

3 Nephi11:27

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Me:The Book of Mormon teaches of distinct persons plus a Holy Spirit in that God. The 2nd person is clearly a personage. Calling two individual persons one God is not orthodox Trinitarian. Unless of course an angelic form was created for Christ. And the 1st person in God would have to be a mere distinction. The persons of God could still be formless, and of the same essence. I do not know the Father is not a personage though.

You:**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--plural gods--

Section 121:32

Section 132:18-20, 37

Me:The Book of Mormon sounds to me like the book may be read by LDS as being borderline plural Gods. By that i mean the idea of the two persons is already there. They are just called God rather than Gods. The only thing that prevents a plurality of Gods is the existence of only one God. My Community of Christ did not accept those sections in our D.& C. and they are unique to their edition. We used to be very Anti-Trinitarian. We avoided having to Gods by equivocating on Jesus Deity. We went Trinitarian in part because scripture does not equivocate on Jesus Deity. But i also speculate my leaders felt if we kept to the old two persons idea we would have to get into the idea of Gods ourselves.

You:2-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God is a spirit--

Alma 18:26-28

Alma 22:8-11

Me:Ether 3:15,16 clarifies we were created after Christ's spirit body. And that spirit would become a man later. The person who wrote up this list i dare say did not study the book closely enough.

You:**Doctrines and covenants teaches--God has a body

Section 130:22

Me:God the Son is both a spirit and a man now. (Luke 24:39)

3-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God dwells in the heart

Alma 34:36

Me:It can't be about Christ's spirit body. But rather the Holy Ghost which is personalized as part of the Lord as if it were his spirit. I do not think it say's Christ's spirit body dwells in the heart at all. So i do not see the contradiction.

You:**Doctrines and covenants teaches--God does not dwell in the heart

section 130:3

Me:Not a genuine contradiction once its understood Jesus atleast is an exalted man.

You:4-**The book of Mormon teaches--Creation - One God

2 Nephi 2:14

Jacob 4:9

Pearl of Great Price

Me:The idea of the three modern persons is already there.

You:Book of Moses Chapter 2

**Pearl of Great Price teaches--creation, many gods

Book of Abraham

Chapter 4

Chapter 5

Me:The typical explain away of the "us" and "our" in Genisis 1:26,27 is its merely a plural of majesty. I reject that idea and feel God was talking to the angelic host or gods. The Lord does not object to Lucifer calling his angelic helpers in creation gods.(Genisis 3;5,22) Unless the angels are just listening to a speech they did have a creative role. If God and Christ are two persons they can be called Gods.

You:5-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God cannot lie

Ether 3:12

2 Nephi 9:34

**Pearl of Great Price teaches--God commands lying

Book of Abraham

Chapter 2:22-25

Me:God condoned the lying of the midwives in Exodus 1:19.

You:6-**The Book of Mormon teaches--God's Word Unchangeable

Alma 41:8

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--God's Word Can Change

Section 56:4-5

Me:Its about decrees not about whether Gods word can never change.

You:7-**The Book of Mormon teaches--No Pre-Existence of Man

Jacob 4:9

Alma 18:28, 34-36

**Doctrine and Covenants teaches--man pre-existed

Section 93:23, 29-33

Pearl of Great Price

Me:The book does not claim to be the final authority on such matters. Nothing in the texts from the Book of Mormon prevents a pre-existence.

You:Book of Abraham

Chapter 3:18, 21-23

Me:No problem

You:8-**The Book of Mormon teaches-- That Polygamy is Condemned

Jacob 1:15

Jacob 2:24

Jacob 3:5

Mosiah 11:2

**Doctrine and covenants teaches: Polygamy is Commanded

Section 132:1, 37-39, 61

Me:Us RLDS never accepted D.&C. 132 as scripture. So we would see the same contradiction. But to be fair LDS have an apologetic response to the contradiction online thats the best i have read. Does Mormon Scripture Contradict Itself on Polygamy?

You:There are more if your interested ...

Me:I study these lists as a hobby. I would not be a Book of Mormon believer if i felt the contradictions lists were genuine. I used to be into thinking Bible contradiction lists were the way to disprove inerrancy. Then i had an awakening when i found Evangelicals had some good solutions for the contradictions in my favorite list.

[Elgama]

im secure in the Word of God not my scholars, but I do believe God gave us the ability to think and reason for A reason

I am curious how do you know its the Word of God, personally I love the bible for its symbolism but other religious texts have merits too on a mental level - why plump for Paul over Buddha or Moses over the Vedas? Why is the Quran not the Word of the God? Personally if I was to go purely on the fruits of faith I would be least likely to plump for Christianity - generally other groups are more likely to have Christ in their countenance and less likely to be unhappy. I also personally feel you may well be on the correct path for you, God answers everyones prayers no matter who you are and guides us all if we listen - however of all the Faiths I investigated many, many Christians sadly can't pray or feel God doesn't want to listen to them, when I help teach the missionaries it is Christian Sects that need teaching how to pray, Muslims, Pagans, Hindus etc are all more than capable of connecting with God

here are a few flase prophesys I found with a quick search, and let me guess....your church had explained away all these things too?

Not every prophecy the Lord has made has to come to pass in order for it to be the Word of God if people make the right effort he has known to withdraw it for example Jonah and Ninevah, and Hezekiah - there are a couple of others but those are the two I remember. And like people will tell you even in the Bible prophecy is all down to interpretation just ask an Orthodox Jew questions about scriptures Christians use to validate Christ using the Old Testament or to talk about end times.

t

Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84)

No longer teach the gathering and temple never built.

Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19)

Mormons driven out.

This prophecy has yet to happen and is still very much taught, because it is Zion though like with the prophecy to Ninevah and Hezekiah it is very much reliant on us to behave right.

Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87)

England and other nations did not join in.

Having studied the civil war from a non US perspective the prophecy stands up pretty well - have you read it?

United Order (D&C 104)

V.1 Commanded as everlasting order; V.48 & 53 dissolved and reorganized

Actually still happens in parts of the church it is possible for you to give your business to the church and receive a living wage. It is very much an opt in thing but its still there. So explain when it was dissolved?

Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111)

No riches found, debts not paid.

It says treasure not riches - for me that does not automatically mean riches or money in fact my experience as a Latter Day Saint teaches me its more likely to be people or knowledge. I haven't studied it in depth but maybe knowledge gained there is what lead to the church to come out of debt because the churches debts are all paid.

Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 (D&C 114)

He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn't God have known he was going to die before the next spring?

So he went on a mission then - your point here shows a lack of understanding of our faith if he died he certainly did go on a mission and as we don't understand the mechanics of it he could have helped the others on Earth - this is also a prophecy that is very much reliant on David Patten's behaviour

New gathering place and temple in Far West (D&C 115)

LDS driven out, never built the temple.

Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths (D&C 124)

Temple and house not completed

Again these are based on behaviour of the Saints - but the Temple in Nauvoo was completed and the endowments performed (those are eternal) the work performed there can never fall the Temple is more about the work performed in it than the building in the bible until they were defiled by pagans and the Lord discontinued it the temple work then was performed on a high place. Thought we had land and were awaiting the command in Far West and Temple has been rebuilt in Nauvoo? and didn't Emma live in the house until she died? -

Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15)

Christ did not return.

Try reading the prophecy - Joseph Smith did not live to be 85.

US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.)

It doesn't and is not destroyed.

Which government was it? and which wrongs

so far I have yet to find a prophecy in your list that can't be simply interpreted differently and a lot of them have happened - did you come up with these yourself because it looks suspiciously like a list I have seen before? - I didn't need to go to scholars basic knowledge of LDS history and current practices allow me to be satisfied that understanding of these prophecies is available through prayer - I didn't even need to look up the prophecies. It does not change that God says Joseph Smith was a prophet - and the Church is where he wants me to bring up my family

-Charley

[Elgama]

also, there are very good reasons for why other books were left out of the Biblical cannon if one were so inclined to research it..

so who put them in in the first place? Certainly the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas make very interesting reading and the additional works of Paul. I just don't understand who gave them the right to put them in and who gave people the right to take them out.

The fact tihat the Roman Catholic Church see;s them as enough worth to include them in a bible as an apocrypha - indicates they believe them to have worth.

With the Book of Mormon changes have been made by people Latter Day Saints believe are prophets of God - so God gave them the right to make corrections.

Having witnessed the way Priesthood blessings work in the church - I assume the process of translation happens in a similar way and sometimes the Words are exact and sometimes it was impressions depending on the importance of the particular message, so in some cases Joseph Smith had the opportunity to make mistakes, but when it really mattered he didn't. But that is why we still have prophets so that mistakes can be corrected we are afterall humans trying to understand the divine I don't believe we will ever understand the basics 100% which is why I believe the mechanics of the Godhead is relatively unimportant - how we imagine it works whether you believe the trinity or are non trinitarian it will be nothing like what we know now

-Charley

[xanmad33]

I would love to talk about the Bible. Could you answer my questions about Jesus Christ?

I'll reprint them:

Jesus of Nazareth is the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is the beginning and the end, He is all powerful and all knowing. As is mentioned in Psalm 139, the presence of His spirit cannot be escaped, and in Isaiah 40 'there is no searching of His understanding.' He has indeed always existed as God.

Was he not once as we are now? Was He not born on the earth in the same manner whereby we have been? Did he not receive a body of flesh and bone through the vessel of the Virgin? Did He not endure childhood and manhood? Did He not physically die? Did He not physically rise from the grave? Did He not show the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet to His disciples and did they not feel them? Did He not say to them: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.' (Luke 24:39) Did He not ascend into heaven having been received into the clouds accompanied by angels? Did He not partake of exaltation? Did He not so rise to sit enthroned in yonder heavens?

-a-train

The differences are we do not believe Jesus was FIRST A MAN, we believe he was always God. We worship God alone. We also don't believe the trinity is three distinct gods.

There are soo mnay questions that have been asked here of me , FORGIVE me if yours was overlooked...

[Elgama]

The differences are we do not believe Jesus was FIRST A MAN, we believe he was always God. We worship God alone. We also don't believe the trinity is three distinct gods.

There are soo mnay questions that have been asked here of me , FORGIVE me if yours was overlooked...

There are plenty of non trinitarian chapels dotted around the UK and have been from before the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was formed - they only use exactly the same bible you do and their boards declare they are Christian.

And Latter Day Saints do not believe Jesus was FIRST A MAN - He was Jehovah God of the Old Testament creator of the Earth. And we only worship Heavenly Father, nor do we believe the Godhead is 3 distinct gods it is one God with 3 personages.

-Charley

[xanmad33]

so who put them in in the first place? Certainly the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas make very interesting reading and the additional works of Paul. I just don't understand who gave them the right to put them in and who gave people the right to take them out.

The fact tihat the Roman Catholic Church see;s them as enough worth to include them in a bible as an apocrypha - indicates they believe them to have worth.

With the Book of Mormon changes have been made by people Latter Day Saints believe are prophets of God - so God gave them the right to make corrections.

Having witnessed the way Priesthood blessings work in the church - I assume the process of translation happens in a similar way and sometimes the Words are exact and sometimes it was impressions depending on the importance of the particular message, so in some cases Joseph Smith had the opportunity to make mistakes, but when it really mattered he didn't. But that is why we still have prophets so that mistakes can be corrected we are afterall humans trying to understand the divine I don't believe we will ever understand the basics 100% which is why I believe the mechanics of the Godhead is relatively unimportant - how we imagine it works whether you believe the trinity or are non trinitarian it will be nothing like what we know now

-Charley

The Gnostic gospels are not truly gospels....as in, they are not biographies of Jesus. And they are not reliable. They are not included in the canon for a reason.

Quote:

"The Gnostic gospels are not historical ac*counts of Jesus’ life but instead are largely esoteric sayings, shrouded in mystery, leaving out historical details such as names, places, and events. This is in strik*ing contrast to the New Testament Gospels, which contain innumerable historical facts about Jesus’ life, ministry, and words.

Here's an article:

Who is the real Jesus?

[Elgama]

The Gnostic gospels are not truly gospels....as in, they are not biographies of Jesus. And they are not reliable. They are not included in the canon for a reason.

Quote:

"The Gnostic gospels are not historical ac*counts of Jesus’ life but instead are largely esoteric sayings, shrouded in mystery, leaving out historical details such as names, places, and events. This is in strik*ing contrast to the New Testament Gospels, which contain innumerable historical facts about Jesus’ life, ministry, and words.

Here's an article:

Who is the real Jesus?

so what about the Old Testament Apocrypha or the books in the New Testament like Revelation or the works of Paul? do you discount the works of Paul?

The Gospel of Mary certainly does not leave out those details and contains a conversation between herself, Peter and the other apostles - and as I said as they were part of Christianity who gave people the right to remove them?

The real Jesus is not dead he is alive (I remember singing that in a baptist church lol) - he is not a book either you don't require history to know him - its just there to teach us more

-Charley

[xanmad33]

There are plenty of non trinitarian chapels dotted around the UK and have been from before the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was formed - they only use exactly the same bible you do and their boards declare they are Christian.

And Latter Day Saints do not believe Jesus was FIRST A MAN - He was Jehovah God of the Old Testament creator of the Earth. And we only worship Heavenly Father, nor do we believe the Godhead is 3 distinct gods it is one God with 3 personages.

-Charley

What about this?...

The Mormon church explicitly rejects the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Said Joseph Smith, "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; emphasis added).

Mormons believe that our Father in heaven has not always been God, but was once a mortal man who progressed to godhood. Joseph Smith declared: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . [H]e was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. . ." (Ibid., pp. 345, 346; italics in original).

[xanmad33]

so what about the Old Testament Apocrypha or the books in the New Testament like Revelation or the works of Paul? do you discount the works of Paul?

The Gospel of Mary certainly does not leave out those details and contains a conversation between herself, Peter and the other apostles - and as I said as they were part of Christianity who gave people the right to remove them?

The real Jesus is not dead he is alive (I remember singing that in a baptist church lol) - he is not a book either you don't require history to know him - its just there to teach us more

-Charley

These are the reasons the Apocrypha was left out:

*Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

*All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.

*None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

*The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

*The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church

*The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

*The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

[Elgama]

What about this?...

The Mormon church explicitly rejects the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Said Joseph Smith, "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; emphasis added).

Mormons believe that our Father in heaven has not always been God, but was once a mortal man who progressed to godhood. Joseph Smith declared: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . [H]e was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. . ." (Ibid., pp. 345, 346; italics in original).

We are non trinitarian - which trinity model do you follow by the way? there are so many - how do they function when you pray or guiding you in your life, once I know that explaining our complicated Godhead model is easier - having said that there has over the centuries been no more hotly debated topic in Christendom than the make up of the Godhead (or maybe its model of baptism or...OK there are lots of debated doctrine) and there have over the years been many non-LDS Christian people who do not believe in the trinity

Yes we believe in eternal progression that is not news, there is an awful lot we can speculate on, I notice you didn't use the more recent President Hinckley quote that stated he didn't have a testimony on the matter. but you asiked about Jesus and he was our God of the Old Testament before he became Mortal he was not mortal before he became part of the Godhead he was part of the Godhead before he became mortal. We could speculate the same about our Father in Heaven and then it goes beyond my mortal brain lol

-Charley

[Elgama]

These are the reasons the Apocrypha was left out:

*Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

*All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.

*None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

*The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

*The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church

*The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

*The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

so God played no part in the inclusion or exclusion of books in the bible? Also we know from the Bible that Jewish leaders at the time of Christ were not good men and had twisted many doctrines

-Charley

[xanmad33]

Some of the teachings in Apocrypha are colored and some are immoral. In Judith 9:10,13, it says that God, assisted Judith in the telling of lies. Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom teach that morality is based expedience. In other words it is right to sin in some situations.

Wisdom 11:17 teaches that God made the universe out of pre-existing matter instead of "ex nihilo" (out of nothing) as Genesis 1:1-2, John 1:1-3 and Hebrews 11:3 plainly state.

There are also historical errors Tobit claimed that he was alive when the Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 B. C. and when Jeroboam revolted against Judah in 931 B. C. However it records his total life span as 158 years. These two events were actually 859 years apart. Judith also mistakenly states that Nebuchadnezzar reigned in Nineveh instead of Babylon. There are many other gross historical errors as well.

No true Bible believers have ever accepted the books as canonical for these reasons. In order for a book to be considered inspired of God and included in the canon it must satisfy the follow requirements.

1. It must have been written by a prophet of God. None of the Apocryphal books claim they were.

2. It must come with the authority of God. These spurious books are strikingly absence of the ring of authority. None of them come up to or compare in any way to the character and quality of the sixty six Books of the Bible.

3. It must demonstrate that the power of God rests on the book. There is nothing transforming about these books.

4. It must tell the truth about God, man, history, science, etc. The books are full of contradictions, errors and even heresies. The Apocryphal books are full of untruth.