Recommended Posts

I need to find out so much about the mormon lds church and I want to do it quickly. Is this a good place to ask a lot of different questions? If not, let me know and I will move it.

Why do I need to learn so much? Well, my name is Cata and a few years ago I moved to Phoenix in the USA. For some time now I have been dating a wonderful girl. She is amazing. She is the one. But she is Mormon. She says we have to be married before we can start a family together and that I have to become a mormon if we are to get married. So I am learning as much as I can as fast as I can. I have done the missionary discussing and have attended church and even gone to the mormon temple in Mesa. Don't worry, just to the visiting center ;)

Some of what I have heard about the mormons, from both the mormons and some non-mormon friends, sounds strange or is confusing. I'm hoping that here I can find lots of different points of view and hopefully learn the truth so I can decide what to do. Can non-mormons give answers and comments too? If so, your thoughts are all welcome here.

My first question may sound accusatory but it is not. I just want to understand. I am told by my non-mormon friends, and my mormon ones have confirmed it, that the LDS church refused to allow black members to join its priesthood. I am a black African myself (we come in different colors in Africa too :lol:) and I have to say I find this offensive. The mormons I have met seem to be much more friendly toward blacks than your average americans so I find this hard to believe and to understand. Is there a reason why a heavenly father who loves all his children the same would do this? Again, please don't take this as rude, I genuinely want to understand why. Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First and foremost, welcome to the forums. You've come to the right place. I know you must be crazy about your wonderful girlfriend. Congratulations! I would also like to emphasize that if you join the church for the wrong reasons, things will eventually fall apart on you. Slow down, tiger, and build a solid foundation of faith and do this for you first. It will mean so much more to you in the future and also to your girlfriend if and when you both do marry.

Your ultimate goal should be to marry the right person in the right place by the right authority. You will find the most joy in life if you trust me on this.

Yes there was a time when black men could not receive the priesthood. I can't give you a doctrinal explanation except that at the time this was a revelation from the Lord. That never meant that black people were not worthy or deserving, though. It was just up to the Lord to determine when the appropriate time was to allow this, as he has determined an appropriate and proper time for all things in the church to come to pass.

Correction: The revelation was that blacks including all worthy men could hold the priesthood as set forth in Declaration 2. My sincere apology for the misunderstanding. It's way past my bed time. I will leave my post unedited save my correction to note that I am not trying to be deceptive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first question may sound accusatory but it is not. I just want to understand. I am told by my non-mormon friends, and my mormon ones have confirmed it, that the LDS church refused to allow black members to join its priesthood. I am a black African myself (we come in different colors in Africa too :lol:) and I have to say I find this offensive. The mormons I have met seem to be much more friendly toward blacks than your average americans so I find this hard to believe and to understand. Is there a reason why a heavenly father who loves all his children the same would do this? Again, please don't take this as rude, I genuinely want to understand why. Thank you.

No problem. This is an issue that has been controversial for many people, so please don't feel like you are being rude.

Let me just start be stating that there have always been restrictions of one type or another. Back in the days of Moses, the Aaronic Priesthood was limited to only the tribe of Levi. If you weren't of the tribe of Levi, you were not going to have the priesthood no matter what color you were.

The priesthood restriction for blacks, started with Brigham Young. I am not sure if this was a revelation or just his personal opinion, but the Lord did not lift it until 1978, much to the joy of the members.

The perception of our critics is that this was a racist thing, but it really was not. I see it as a timing thing.

Another timing thing was in the time of Jesus. The gospel was not to be taught to the gentiles before Jesus' time. It was only after the ressurection of Jesus that the Lord gave His go-ahead for the gentiles to be preached to.

I don't pretend to know the Lord's timetables, or why He does things when He does them, but I hope this won't be a stumbling block for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OFFICIAL DECLARATION—2

To Whom It May Concern:

On September 30, 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:

In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously.

President Kimball has asked that I now read this letter:

June 8, 1978

To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:

Dear Brethren:

As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.

Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.

He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color. Priesthood leaders are instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for worthiness.

We declare with soberness that the Lord has now made known his will for the blessing of all his children throughout the earth who will hearken to the voice of his authorized servants, and prepare themselves to receive every blessing of the gospel.

Sincerely yours,

Spencer W. Kimball

N. Eldon Tanner

Marion G. Romney

The First Presidency

Recognizing Spencer W. Kimball as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is proposed that we as a constituent assembly accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord. All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.

Salt Lake City, Utah, September 30, 1978.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Skal- If I was willing to join your church just because a girl wanted me to I already would have. Of course, if I took religion that lightly my girlfriend would box my brains out. At least that's what she tells me :) Advice appreciated, and probably needed.

Mighty- From what I understand the mormon church doesn't acknowledge mistakes. Or maybe I'm not clear on that. Members keep telling me it is a perfect church, which to me would mean that it can't make mistakes. Do they mean something else?

Fly- Thank you, that makes some sense.

might again- I like tangents, I feel like I learn more from them than my original Qs.

Does anyone know if if other ethnicities, like hispanics or asians, were also prevented? Just curious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cata, your last question is interesting, and I don't have an answer for it! You're right, our church is very reluctant to call anything a mistake, which is too bad IMO. We can have very human leaders yet still be the Lord's church, KWIM? Even Joseph Smith made a big mistake when he sent pages of manuscript with a friend who lost them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mighty- From what I understand the mormon church doesn't acknowledge mistakes. Or maybe I'm not clear on that. Members keep telling me it is a perfect church, which to me would mean that it can't make mistakes. Do they mean something else?

Fly- Thank you, that makes some sense.

Does anyone know if if other ethnicities, like hispanics or asians, were also prevented? Just curious.

The organization is perfect, however, we as people are not perfect. We will make mistakes just like anyone else, we are, afterall, only human.

Glad I could shed some light.

To my knowledge, no other ethnicities were restricted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously this has been an issue for a long time. The answer to the issue when confronted as "we just don't know" may be more true than not but does little to pacify the sincere seeker of the truth, you included. I have a very fine article written by an African-American woman, who is a former anti-Mormon. If you PM me with your em address I will be happy to attach a copy of her talk wihch by the way is found on the FAIR/FARMS site so it is legit. Actually you can find a lot there but the two articles I found are from sources that in my opinion have lived it so they are better suited to expound on their perspective.

Though there were times the blacks could not hold the PH, there were also times when the main universal church of the day would kill lay persons for having Bible/scriptures in their possessions. How could that be christian? So don't judge us too harshly, the point is that they have all the rights now. There are, sincere seekers of the truth, they just see things from a different religious culture than do we (LDS).

All the best - be sure to make the right decision. My 8 year old son invented our family motto which is "Right is Light, Let's try with all our might." Pretty insightful.

Abraham

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hello and welcome catateface , i hope you and your girl work out all right .you both sound lovely. and i am sure you both want the best for each other , i wish you both the best !! you will make some great freinds here , i hate to go but its 1:41a.m. here. gotta catch some zzzzzz's good night :digowngrave:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome, Cata,

Read here.

Articles of Faith 1

Then read this.

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail____

Read this.

Joseph Smith—History 1

Then read the Book of Mormon.

Book of Mormon

This is the most recent World Conference.

177th Semiannual General Conference, October 2007

Read these two things.

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - “The Family: A Proclamation to the Worldâ€

LDS.org - Young Women Chapter Detail - For the Strength of Youth

Then spend time exploring these websites:

Mormon.org

Jesus Christ, The Son of God

Joseph Smith - Home

If you need more after all that, let me know!

Happy seeking!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a good website about Blacks and Mormonism, by Black Mormons Genesis Group

Also, I received this (along with permission to pass it along to others) a number of years ago, this is what one black person felt (no its not from the Church, its his own personal opinion - but it sounds right to me):

"The Priesthood has never been held in bondage. Aaron and his sons weren't allowed to exercise the priesthood until after the children of Israel were free from Egypt and out in the desert for a while. When the nation of Israel was carried away into captivity in Babylon, same thing.

This said, certain groups in modern society have been held in slavery as well. It's not the fault of persons held in slavery, but just the same, the Priesthood cannot be commanded. And, even though the Civil War and related events technically ended slavery in this country, many things didn't change culturally until efforts of the Civil Rights movements in the sixties and seventies. And until all people could regard themselves as free from bondage, they couldn't hold the Priesthood. And now, while efforts continue to advance the rights of all races, we have the responsibility of adhering to the Gospel and using the Priesthood to officiate in the ordinances of that Gospel."

Hope this helps you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is this a good place to ask a lot of different questions? If not, let me know and I will move it.

You can ask all the questions you want. But I don’t know if this is BEST place for it. You have met with the Missionaries, I suggest you meet with them for your questions. Either pick 5 questions and let the missionaries come back prepared to answer them. You probably might not get all different sides to a question (as you would in some public message board) but you well be able to ask questions about the answer easier. Meaning you can get through a question a lot easier then some message board that gives you twenty answers, and you have to sift through them. I suggest you keep talking to the missionaries first. (at least put your questions to them, if don’t feel like you got a complete answer from them, then post it here).

But she is Mormon. She says we have to be married before we can start a family together and that I have to become a mormon if we are to get married.

This is true! I’m glad she stand by her beliefs, and I’m glad you respect her beliefs.

I have done the missionary discussing and have attended church and even gone to the mormon temple in Mesa. Don't worry, just to the visiting center

This is your key! Talking with the missionaries, going to church and learning. This process isn’t something that can be rushed (nor should it). I have to assume you are reading the Book of Mormon. The big key to joning our church isn’t having every question answers (some like the one here might not have a completely answer) the key is finding out if Joseph Smith was called of God to be a prophet (did the First Vision really happen?) Is the Book of Mormon true! Did God set up his Church and kingdom again on the earth! This is what you need to come to know!

that the LDS church refused to allow black members to join its priesthood.

This is true. But the LDS church never refused the Blacks Salvation or Heaven or anything like it. Even if Blacks never got the priesthood is never was held against them from progressing to (as you probably know) the Celestial Kingdom. (there is a big different there).

and I have to say I find this offensive

That is understable. Most churches through out history never really treated the Blacks very well.

Sense everybody else is posting web sites here is another one

http://www.blacklds.org/

The mormons I have met seem to be much more friendly toward blacks than your average americans so I find this hard to believe and to understand.

We do believe that all of us our Children of our Heavenly Father. We believe in treating everybody with respect no matter of there race or religion. But if you sit and try to “understand” this completely I don’t think you can. Most members don’t “understand” this completely (there are plenty of holes that we just don’t know).

We KNOW that even before Spencer W. Kimball was president (the one that lifted the ban) were praying and wanting to know if they could lift it. Many times during Pres. Kimballs time as prophet he wanted this lifted. We believe in Revelation! We believe that for what ever reason the ban was not lifted until the time came. (this is the reason why coming to know if a prophet has been called in our day is so important).

We have to assume that if the lifting of the ban on the priesthoods was done by revelation, that what ever put it into place was also done by revelation.

Is there a reason why a heavenly father who loves all his children the same would do this?

I can’t even try to comprehend what God knows, or how and why God works. I just know he does, and that there is more to it then what my mind can comprehend. Like others have said, there have been times that not everybody got to hold the priesthood, or even had the gospel preached to them. Why did a “loving” God do that? He had his reasons!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ska, please refer me to the revelation, if it is written anywhere.

You are correct there is no revelation specifically talking about this ban on the priesthood. But I guess I find it so interesting in the study of banning the priesthood is that we DO have a revelation when the Priesthood was Banned to a group of people.

The problem with sharing this, is the tendency to assume the same thing happen to Blacks (or who ever the ban effected). I think we have to be careful in doing that. We have realized that each situation is different. I share this example to point out that there are times when God does ban his priesthood from people. This revelation was about mob members that had been fighting against the Church and Joseph Smith.

(Doctrine and Covenants 121:16.)

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

I think we can fully agree that God has the power to Curse those that fight against his anointed services. I’m sure there have been different “curses” through out time against people that fight against God.

(Doctrine and Covenants 121:18-21.)

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

What we do learn from this is that there are people that do not have “right” to the priesthood, nor the posterity after them.

Why didn’t blacks hold the priesthood we don’t know.

The key is realizing that you can hold the priesthood of God! It is powerful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Xhenli. I’ve already read the articles of faith, family proclamation, the living Christ, the joseph smith history (although I find that very hard to understand and will have to re-read I think at least twice more), and have skimmed the book of mormon. I have read every word but didn’t take time to dig in very deeply. I am going through it again more thoroughly now but that is going much slower. I am also reading in the bible right now because I have heard many stories from it but never read it.

Thank you very much for the link to the general conference. People talked about it and I wondered what kinds of things were said. Now I can watch for myself! The web pages are not quite as helpful. The answers I have gotten at lds.net so far are much better. I always like different points of view discussing things. I read a lot and the mormon church looks like it has enough books to keep me busy for a lifetime if I want.

Tabuloth and mnn- I found your answers very helpful. Thank you so much. And Tabuloth, I have put in a lot of time talking with the missionaries and my girlfriend and other members. But I really like multiple viewpoints. Some of the best convincing of the truth of the lds has come from investigating things “anti-mormons” tell me.

Thanks all

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My next question is a little complicated. I have read Moroni’s chapter 10 promise many times and discussed it many times and I think I understand what it is saying pretty well. Right now I am in the middle of doing my part and trying to learn as much as I can so that when I ask God if it is true he will be obligated to answer me. I have asked 100 people how they know the answer is the answer and get the same response phrased a few different ways. My question is: How will I know that the feeling I get is an answer from God and not just me wanting it to be true? Because, being honest to myself, I really do. It would make my girlfriend happy and the elders happy and my new mormon friends happy. It would make me happy. I could get married. With all of that I think I will convince myself it is true even if it isn’t. I think I will try and make myself feel a feeling like a burning bosom or a still small voice. And so far I like the lds church very much but if its not what I’m told it is I don’t want to make any promises or covenants with it.

Oh yeah, and just because I ask a new question doesn’t mean I’m done with the old ones. Newcomers feel free to add more if you have different thoughts!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share