Bishop letting unworthy members keep recommends?

[Call2Serves]

is there any way i can bring out into the open, or go above my ward bishops head in a matter of a recommend? the reason why i ask is our ward bishop is a good bishop, besides the fact that when it comes to the topic of Temple Recommends and a certain female member in our church, he feels that if he removes her recommend he will "loose a member of his flock" but myself and others know this woman wears her garments but STILL has sexual relations and she isn't married, and i also think she drinks (not too sure on this one though). so is there anything I can do to go over the bishops head, because after being told all this by many members, his only reply is "I'm not sure how reliable those statements are."

[Lbybug]

why is it your place to say wether she keeps her recommend or not? gossip is gossip. have you actually seen her taking part in a sexual act?

the Lord knows the content of everyones heart, let him be the decider.

[mickeyb]

I agree with Lbybug:

The Bishop because he holds certain keys will be held accountable if he is not doing his job by Heavenly Father. As far as the woman goes, once again if the Bishop really isn't dealing with the situation, HF will in His own time. It isn't for us to judge.

[Jbs2763]

gossip like this is why a good bunch of people leave the church.......

[mickeyb]

I think I will keep that saying. The one about the dog. Only I will change it to: I hope I can be the "woman"........ lol

Mickey

[Jbs2763]

I think I will keep that saying. The one about the dog. Only I will change it to: I hope I can be the "woman"........ lol

Mickey

its a bellamy brother's song.....

[RachelleDrew]

I hate to sound harsh, but this doesn't really affect your salvation now does it?

There may be more to this situation than you are aware of. Since you are not the person in question, or the bishop, then you don't have all the information at hand. It would not be wise to approach someone with the intention of discussing a bishop's competence seeing as how you aren't privy to all the information at hand.

If the bishop is mishandling church affairs, then heavenly father will exercise accountability. In my opinion, the only time I would consider it acceptable to go over a bishop's head would be in truly dire situations. Example: If you had enough proof to believe he was putting the physical safety of another person at risk or abusing someone. Then by all means take action.

Focus on your own worthiness, it's more fruitful for everyone.

[a-train]

To continue not sounding harsh...

...Get a LIFE!

-a-train

[cgrantreed]

My wife (extobe) is not worthy if her recommend either and she has her Bishop snowed but I fortunately am not AT ALL on the line for her actions so whoopdy-friggen-doo. If her Bishop knows something and is not doing his proper job then he will pay the price in the end. If she is attending the temple or wearing her garments unworthily... she will pay the price. One way or another the Lord has a way of balancing the spiritual books for everyone eventually. Focus on your own salvation and leave the treachery and debauchery to others judgment. "Vengence is mine" is a divine statement. I would never want to be accused of trying to judge anyones worthiness because mine sucks and I think I am a decent saint... Its her funeral...

Grant

[HappyNIL]

We all need to worry about ourselves........Judge not! Let the first one without sin through the first stone.

[pam]

To continue not sounding harsh...

...Get a LIFE!

-a-train

That was a bit harsh and uncalled for.

[prisonchaplain]

To get to the heart of the matter--if the individual in question tells the bishop all the right answers to the questions, during her interview, is he not more or less required to renew the recommend, regardless of what doubts he may have (barring absolute evidence, of course)?

[skalenfehl]

To get to the heart of the matter--if the individual in question tells the bishop all the right answers to the questions, during her interview, is he not more or less required to renew the recommend, regardless of what doubts he may have (barring absolute evidence, of course)?

From what I understand, yes. When a person lies to his or her bishop, he/she is essentially lying to him/herself and the Lord. Temple officiators have, in the past, (through the Spirit) knowingly married/sealed unworthy couples, but ultimately this will be between the person in question and the Lord.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

The only time something should be said in these matters, is when you have absolute proof. And also, ONLY when it is a Priesthood holder, especially, in a position of authority, meaning a bishopric, elders quorum presidency and so on. However skalenfehl is right, it is between the Lord and the offender. The thing about the position of authority is this. Priesthood Holders are legal administrators of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Children of God here on this Earth. Qualifying for this position consists of authority and worthiness and power. Power and authority are given but the individual is responsible for his worthiness. If they are not worthy, they are no longer qualified to administer the gospel to the children of men.

Echo effect: Why does this matter to you?

It is funny, my sister(33) asked me this same question yesterday. Someone had called my sister and asked the same question, and she told her to ignore it because it wasn't her business(essentially). My sister called me and asked me if what she said was right. I told her yes. It has no meaning for you. Don't worry about it.

To give a little insight, my Dad's in a position of authority. Once a month, he talks with the Bishop about needs of the ward, and any issues that may cause disfellowshipping or excommunication. I would assume that the counsel that he has given you about her is most likely the Stake President's. I don't know, but it is a possibility. Also, this is a confidential matter between the Bishop, the Stake President, the individual, and of course the Lord. The Bishop is NOT going to let you in on the details of what they are doing. Why? Because it is not your business.

Our lives are hard enough without plaguing it with others problems. I have too many problems to worry about having to deal with.

[Elgama]

Your Bishop has the keys -He is entitled to revelation to this he knows what the Lord wants, I know that Temple Workers let some in knowing they are not worthy and others the Temple President has asked to leave. They have the keys to the calling and only the Lord knows what is best for each of us sinner.

One interesting side and this is meant to be harsh, because people including myself (as innocent as you feel yourself right now) not sustaining successive branch presidents has destroyed many Latter Day Saints lives and caused 20 years of bad times in my branch - in doing this can you honestly answer yes to this question>?

Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?

Interestingly this question comes before the one on the Law of Chastity probably because not doing so has the potential to affect much more people. I know in my own branch people took sides, got angry etc - I did well to think we didn't have any troubles for 12 years but then I am very ashamed I got sucked in and gave my branch president at the time a bad time. If as you say yours is a good man you can be sure he is doing the right thing even if you don't think so

-Charley

[Guest GreenMum]

Personally... I think this is a case of MYOB! That is Mind Your Own Business!

I had a situation about a year ago where I was out with my husband and his colleagues at at Bar Louie's. All of his co-workers drink, we do not. But, we both were drinking soda water with a lime... which a little girl from the singles ward who knew who we were mistook for a Vodka Tonic. The other member who was there with us was drinking a coke.

Now, if she had come up and ask instead of jumping to conclusions we could have avoided the interview with our Bishop the following week. Our poor bishop worried all week because he knew it wasn't true, but this little girl likes to gossip and cause drama.

Needless to say... she was given a stern talking to about lying (she said I wasn't wearing my garments, yet I never recall her seeing me naked and I most definitely was wearing them, I had to wear a tank under my cute dress to make it garment worthy! ugh), jumping to conclusions and such.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Call2,

Here is a bit more charitable way to respond to you.

It is good to experience outrage when we see something wrong happening. However, we must think about two things before we act.

1. Have we jumped to conclusions? Are we assuming facts not in evidence? Are we choosing to believe what we think is most likely, instead of what actually is?

This is hard to avoid. Again, we are commanded to judge righteous judgement, and we all posess the light of Christ which allows us to tell good from evil. But we are not given the ability to see into someone's heart, and we don't know what happens behind closed doors.

To put it bluntly, you don't have enough information to impose consequences. You don't know what the Bishop is thinking. You don't know what discussions they've had. You don't have all the facts. You don't know what's going on in this lady's heart.

2- Stewardship. Is this lady's doings any of your business? If she's your mom or your daughter, or she's sleeping with your husband, the answer is yes. If she just happens to live in the same ward as you, the answer is probably no. Are you a judge in Israel like your Bishop? Do you have some sort of responsibility over this lady that would give God reason to provide you inspiration on acting on her behalf?

If the answer is no, your responsibility lies in letting those with Stewardship know what you know. And "being told all this by many members" is gossip, it is not knowledge.

Here is a great Ensign article from Dallin H. Oaks in 1999 - it really clarified the issue for me, and I hope it helps you too.

“Judge Not” and Judging

LM

[prisonchaplain]

It is good to experience outrage when we see something wrong happening.

This is perhaps totally unrelated to the OP, but I'm concerned that in our cultures (U.S.) we've largely lost the ability to be properly angry. We are so fearful of "judging" that we're afraid to discern right from wrong, and even when we see what we know for certain is wrong, our ability to conjur up anger is so utterly nuetered by our hedonistic and non-judgmental society.

Then, sadly, those few times we do get angry, it's often unrighteous, selfish, and sometimes inspired by our own guilt over similar sins.

This is the problem. I'm not sure what the solution is, other than drawing closer to God, and gaining the demeanor of the Spirit.

[Misshalfway]

John 8

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[Maya]

A glimpse of my life... the thing that was in the newspaper... I KNOEW I had not said it, since it was not true I would NEVER have said it! I decided to let the thing be... something the stupid newspaper had misunderstood from the court papers...

I am SOOO happy my bishop believed me! Not until after some 5 years I really have understood that the mistake was NOT made by the newspaper, but the court! Since I had been denied an iterpreter... none for my language was awailable... a misunderstanding happened... WORST was that the poor accused got more penalty because of the misunderstanding... later we decided not to do anything, as it really did not matter any moore. WE KNEW what was the truth and so does God ... but sometimes I still think that maybe I should do somethign about it.. it was SO WRONG to deny an iterprater from me!

Actually I can understand the weird looks I got in Church for a long time... some stil keep on... And I can imagine the gosships... I would not have been a friend of me either....

[a-train]

This is perhaps totally unrelated to the OP, but I'm concerned that in our cultures (U.S.) we've largely lost the ability to be properly angry. We are so fearful of "judging" that we're afraid to discern right from wrong, and even when we see what we know for certain is wrong, our ability to conjur up anger is so utterly nuetered by our hedonistic and non-judgmental society.

Then, sadly, those few times we do get angry, it's often unrighteous, selfish, and sometimes inspired by our own guilt over similar sins.

This is the problem. I'm not sure what the solution is, other than drawing closer to God, and gaining the demeanor of the Spirit.

I see a very different picture. Our society is engrossed in judgmentalness. Our society seeks to implement strong social controls and many wish to legislate such controls. This society is just as judgmental as were the Pharisees. Appearance is everything to it.

Television, radio, print, the internet, all these things have only raised the heights by which our people judge one another. Certainly the rules of judgment have changed, but the game is the same.

Is it righteous anger to be angry that a fellow being obtained some blessing from the LORD although you judged them to be unworthy? The anger of our LORD was not directed to the woman taken in adultery, but to the Scribes and Pharisees of whom He said: 'for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.' (Matt 23:13)

We must be STRONGLY cautioned against seeking to prevent another from entering into the temple to take upon themselves the blessings of the kingdom.

-a-train

[Elgama]

I see a very different picture. Our society is engrossed in judgmentalness. Our society seeks to implement strong social controls and many wish to legislate such controls. This society is just as judgmental as were the Pharisees. Appearance is everything to it.

Television, radio, print, the internet, all these things have only raised the heights by which our people judge one another. Certainly the rules of judgment have changed, but the game is the same.

Is it righteous anger to be angry that a fellow being obtained some blessing from the LORD although you judged them to be unworthy? The anger of our LORD was not directed to the woman taken in adultery, but to the Scribes and Pharisees of whom He said: 'for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.' (Matt 23:13)

We must be STRONGLY cautioned against seeking to prevent another from entering into the temple to take upon themselves the blessings of the kingdom.

-a-train

I agree with much of this it was similar with Mary and Martha the Lord did not rebuke Martha for the way she served when she judged Mary

-Charley

[prisonchaplain]

I see a very different picture. Our society is engrossed in judgmentalness. Our society seeks to implement strong social controls and many wish to legislate such controls. This society is just as judgmental as were the Pharisees. Appearance is everything to it.

Television, radio, print, the internet, all these things have only raised the heights by which our people judge one another. Certainly the rules of judgment have changed, but the game is the same.

-a-train

I could guess at what you are referring to when you say we are engrossed in judgmentalism, but could you spell it out? Do you mean consumerism, lookism, racial/economic prejudice? It might well be that we are in total agreement, and just looking from different angles.

[lilered]

I agree to the comments and advise thus far. I would however comment that your original thread indicates Gossip as the source as oppossed to actually witnessing someone participating in a serious sin. If I had first hand knowledge of a serious sin committed by a Temple or Priesthood holder, then I would feel a responsiblity to make the Bishop aware of the situation. Keeping in mind that in the future I might have to face that person as their accusser.

[WillowTheWhisp]

What happens in a Temple Recommend interview is between the interviewee, the Bishop and Heavenly Father. The interviewee may be able to mislead the Bishop but cannot deceive Heavenly Father and if they lie ultimately the only person they are harming is themself. Remember also that it isn't only the Bishop who interviews them, they also need to be interviewed by a member of the Stake Presidency so if you intend to 'go above their heads' how far would you actually take it?

My advice would be to leave it in the hands of Heavenly Father who knows far more about the situation than you or anyone else.