Faith and works


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[Keep it simple]

Using this combination [faith + works + grace = eternal glory], we endure to the 'bitter' end.

Grace is a given by the God [gift - Eph 2:8] that we are saved via the Atonement. It still won't give you the highest kingdom. Faith alone will not save us since many of the people believe but are still disobedience to God. Nor will work without faith as shown by earlier Jewish priests during Christ's ministry.

It is more of combination having faith and doing the work, through the grace [Atonement] of Christ we are eternally saved.

Bit of pieces of principles & doctrines are used by those who really don't fully comprehend the meaning of the Gospel of Christ, Plan of GOD, and the Atonement.

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[Keep it simple]

Using this combination [faith + works + grace = eternal glory], we endure to the 'bitter' end.

Grace is a given by the God [gift - Eph 2:8] that we are saved via the Atonement. It still won't give you the highest kingdom. Faith alone will not save us since many of the people believe but are still disobedience to God. Nor will work without faith as shown by earlier Jewish priests during Christ's ministry.

It is more of combination having faith and doing the work, through the grace [Atonement] of Christ we are eternally saved.

Bit of pieces of principles & doctrines are used by those who really don't fully comprehend the meaning of the Gospel of Christ, Plan of GOD, and the Atonement.

Oh thanks. I think you and I see the concept the same. I am trying to learn about non-lds perspectives. How does one who is "saved" answer the question? If one is "saved", aren't they assured a seat in heaven? If that is so, then what if they sin? I am wondering how those questions are answered outside of mormondom.

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I'm saved by grace. If I sin, I must repent. 1 John 1:9 (If we confess...God forgives) is written to Christians. Works, then, are the fruit of my salvation. After I'm converted, I receive the Spirit of God, and the fruit of the Spirit should increasingly grow in my life.

If I claim to be saved by grace, and yet there are no fruits of the Spirit and no good works in my life, then my faith is dead and of no effect. It's not that grace failed, but that I failed to truly embrace, and allow Christ's life to resurrect me.

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I'm saved by grace. If I sin, I must repent. 1 John 1:9 (If we confess...God forgives) is written to Christians. Works, then, are the fruit of my salvation. After I'm converted, I receive the Spirit of God, and the fruit of the Spirit should increasingly grow in my life.

If I claim to be saved by grace, and yet there are no fruits of the Spirit and no good works in my life, then my faith is dead and of no effect. It's not that grace failed, but that I failed to truly embrace, and allow Christ's life to resurrect me.

Wow. Ok. Thanks. That seems so close to what I believe. So, being saved isn't a guarantee of salvation. Is that right? Or is it like getting your birthright.... but then having the potential of losing it? I assume a person would get judged at the great and last day. Right? So, what is it about the LDS view that is different from what you just said?

The differences I see are that I don't see myself as saved... I see myself as obedient and gathered into the flock. The 'being saved' status won't come until the judgment. Aren't we saying the same thing but using different terms?

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Wow. Ok. Thanks. That seems so close to what I believe. So, what is it about the LDS view that is different from what you just said?

My understanding is that LDS theology does not distinguish conversion from "enduring to the end." Therefore, from non-LDS eyes, it seems you do not have an absolute assurance of your salvation, and that you are dependent upon good works to appease God, and to win your entry into heaven. Therefore, IF works are a prerequisite of salvation, versus being a fruit of conversion, THEN salvation is not by grace--it is earned through (to say it casually) doing stuff.

Of course I've overstated it. But, to evangelicals in particular, "earning salvation" is impossible, and it is extreme spiritual hubris to claim the ability to do so.

In reality, the confusion comes in that evangelicals interpret "salvation" as "conversion," whereas LDS mean "faithful unto death." Our beliefs are probably a lot closer than we realize--but what I've italicized above is the key difference we perceive.

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To Mormons, earning salvation is impossible too. We can't resurrect ourselves. We can't forgive ourselves. It is all grace. And grace in the very actions of our daily lives helping us live and overcome the sins of the day. I think that this is a misconception about the mormon faith. We believe that we must be obedient for blessings of the Lord to come into our lives. Disobedience has its consequences too. I think this might be where the misunderstanding lies.

I am glad to understand this better. I actually thought being "saved" was the easy way to God. Like all one has to do is confess Christ, and you have got it made. That felt like earning to me. But that didn't make complete sense to me considering all the discussions about Heaven and Hell. Hmmm...... I think I understand a little better.

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Could someone please explain to me how personal responsibility and accountability work in the "saved by grace" philosophy?

The light we have received and comprehended -- we are responsible for following it.

We partner with Christ. He alone can make us "strong enough" to carry-out His will. We stay close to Him. We go to Him for the "what" as well as the "how" and the power to do it.

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The first four principles and ordinances in the LDS church are:

1. Faith

2. Repentance

3. Baptism

4. Gift of Holy Ghost

If a man says that he has faith, how can one know? How does one prove his love for his child, his wife, his fellow man, the Lord? If a man believes that he can be saved through Christ's Atonement, he will forsake his worldly ways and exercise repentance, meaning, turn to the Lord and follow Him (I am the way). He brings forth fruit meet for repentance--baptism. He changes his life for the better. He follows Christ and is buried with Him in baptism. He enters the gates of baptism and is baptized, and his garments washed with the atoning blood of the Lamb. He is baptized with water and with fire--the gift of the Holy Ghost, the 2nd comforter. Through his works he is worthy of God's grace unto salvation. By my understanding, believing alone is not fruitful. Even the devils believe "and they tremble" (James 2:19)

The same principles apply to exaltation. There are covenants that we as LDS members make in the temple in order to be able to inherit exaltation. But is that sufficient? No. We must keep and uphold those covenants that we made. This is called enduring to the end. What does it profit to say we believe and do nothing about it? Or what does it profit to make covenants and not keep them until we are called home to that God who gave us life?

James 2: 18, 20, 26

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

• • •

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

• • •

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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MissHalfWay,,

PC gave the standard evanglelical response. Grace is a gift and cannot be earned. Works result from grace and show the evidence of the gift. If you don't have the evidence then you probably didn't get the gift.

But there are a number of flavours of that and I'll have a go at ordering them with major doctrines to show how I see the LDS position came about (The LDS section is my take on the LDS position, I'm not tellling LDS what you believe but how I perceive your veiws in the historical flow of doctrines.)

Reformed/Calvinist:

God is sovereign, man can only do God's will.

God chooses an elect.

Christ only atoned for the elect.

Man is depraved. (ie He is so corrupt that has no way of ever responding to God)

The elect do nothing to earn or merit this choosing.

The elect cannot resist election, it is irrisistable to the truly elect.

No matter what the elect do, God will save them.

(OSAS Once saved always saved, or perseverance of the saints)

If you don't live up to the gift that just shows you must not have recieved it and never were of the elect.

So sin can't stop election but the elect shouldn't sin.

Hyper-Calvinism

Like above except:

The elect have no responsibility to do anything to show election because that would appear to be adding works to election. Led to a tendancy to not view sin seriously because no matter what I do, if I'm elect then God will save.)

Arminian/(most Evanglelicals)

Christ atoned for all people

God chooses an elect based on his foreknowledge of what they will choose.

Man is depraved, but God gifts a special grace to the elect which allows them to respond.

Man can choose to activate atonement through faith in Jesus.

Faith is the sole means of entry into Jesus kingdom and his Chruch on earth, all other actions flow from that not cause it.

Often accept OSAS and that those who appear to fall away never really saved.

(Some Calvinist percieve this accepting of the gift and the need to have faith to accept it as works and therefore think Arminians have added works to salvation.)

Church of Christ/Christian Church

Christ atoned for all people.

Man is in a fallen state but still able to respond to the preaching of the gospel without God's granting any specail merit.

Man is called to make effective atonement by following the biblically recorded call to believe, repent and be baptised for the remission of sins this enables someone to enter Jesus church in heaven and here on earth.

Rejects OSAS and teaches that a Christian can fall away if he does not persevere through obedience to Jesus commands.

Some people take this to far and start thinking that every sin might cut them off from God but it is persistent and unrepentant sin which leads to our turning our back on God, God never turns his back on us. God never gives up on his side of the covenant with us but he does allow us the right if we really and persistantly insist on walking away from him.

(Most evanglelicals would claim that beleive, repent and being baptised have been as works needed for salvation. Response would be works require wages, those actions are just the biblically mandated way to receive God's gift.)

LDS

Christ Atoned for all people.

Atonement effective for nearly all people (universalism)

Man is called to glorification (a gift beyond effective attonement) by believing, repenting and being baptised for remission of sin by a person with the correct priesthood authority and walking in obedience to Jesus commands.

Christian can fall away from glorification by not perserving.

(Most Christians see the LDS glorification requirements as earning the gift of God not receiving it as a gift.)

So specifically picking up on eternal destination...

So both reformed and evanglelical would tell someone (they believed saved) that God has assured them their salvation now and that it can never be lost, no matter what they do. Those that do appear to be lost were actually never really found.

I would say that God would assure people that He will never give up on them and as far as he is concerned they are saved today. There is a possibility of falling way but that anyone so concerned with their relationship with God as to worry about falling away, God will ensure that they persevere for he will do all in His power to keep them.

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I said that wrong. We can forgive ourselves. I just meant that it is only thru the atonement that salvation is possible.....Grace.

PC, do you guys believe that if you are not faithful to the end that salvation won't come to you?

Forgiving self is so crucial. Well said.

As for your 2nd question, Joseph Smith sided with my predecessors--the Armenians, in believing that it is possible to fall from grace, or, to lose one's salvation. On the other hand, I (personally) would argue that such is difficult to do. God chases after us, wooing us, convicting us, bringing people and circumstances into our lives...to truly lose salvation is requires a consistent rejection of God's Spirit, and an intentional hardening of one's heart.

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So both reformed and evanglelical would tell someone (they believed saved) that God has assured them their salvation now and that it can never be lost, no matter what they do. Those that do appear to be lost were actually never really found.

This is how I thought it was. But PC says that they still need to repent if they make a mistake. Perhaps that is his take on it. I have met people who believe that they will never be lost, no matter what they do. I can't decide if that doctrine is coming from organized religion or from the interpretations of the individual.

And I think that it is sad to me that most Christians see our focus on obedience as earning. I wonder if the verbage gets in the way of true understanding....

Anyway, thank you for your answer.

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So both reformed and evanglelical would tell someone (they believed saved) that God has assured them their salvation now and that it can never be lost, no matter what they do. Those that do appear to be lost were actually never really found.

This is how I thought it was. But PC says that they still need to repent if they make a mistake.

I'm quite certain that any sound Christian teacher would counsel a Christian who had sinned to repent. Whether salvation can be lost or not, the believer wants to please his/her Savior, and would repent and have remorse when failing to do so.

Perhaps that is his take on it. I have met people who believe that they will never be lost, no matter what they do. I can't decide if that doctrine is coming from organized religion or from the interpretations of the individual.

Probably a combination of individual understanding and unbalanced teaching. Even Calvinists of the most ardent variety understand that Christians must behave Christianly, or they may not be true Christians. So, historically, Calvinists have wanted to demonstrate that they truly are "of the Elect," through good works and piety.
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Forgiving self is so crucial. Well said.

As for your 2nd question, Joseph Smith sided with my predecessors--the Armenians, in believing that it is possible to fall from grace, or, to lose one's salvation. On the other hand, I (personally) would argue that such is difficult to do. God chases after us, wooing us, convicting us, bringing people and circumstances into our lives...to truly lose salvation is requires a consistent rejection of God's Spirit, and an intentional hardening of one's heart.

So.... does God come to man or does man come to God?

If God says that he cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, doesn't sin separate us from God? Isn't this the role of the Savior, to bridge the gap between the sinner and the Father? It sounds like to loose salvation..... it would be ok for one to be sinful up to a certain degree. Someone once told me they would be saved.... unless they committed murder. But that adultry.,... and other things were made up by the grace of the Lord.

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I'm quite certain that any sound Christian teacher would counsel a Christian who had sinned to repent. Whether salvation can be lost or not, the believer wants to please his/her Savior, and would repent and have remorse when failing to do so.

So, is repentance part of the Gospel of Jesus or just a good idea?

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Shall win sin so that grace may abound? God forbid! So says the Apostle Paul, in Romans 6. Will I die and face judgment if I stub my toe, utter a curse word, then have a heart attack, and die, before I've had the chance to utter repentance?

I'm quite certain I"ll enter the kingdom of God. Further, that the blood shed by Christ would cover that final sin. Nevertheless, I cannot expect that God will be pleased with that "slip." My faith is not in my perfection, but in Christ's grace. Nevertheless, when I fail, I repent. Absolutely. 1 John 1:9 is for sinners, saints, and the Church.

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Shall win sin so that grace may abound? God forbid!

I agree, but that is why we get up every time we fall. We repent again because we are not perfect and subject to the flesh. But through our continuous sincere efforts does Christ make up the difference and is His grace sufficient.

Respectfully.

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Shall win sin so that grace may abound? God forbid! So says the Apostle Paul, in Romans 6. Will I die and face judgment if I stub my toe, utter a curse word, then have a heart attack, and die, before I've had the chance to utter repentance?

I'm quite certain I"ll enter the kingdom of God. Further, that the blood shed by Christ would cover that final sin. Nevertheless, I cannot expect that God will be pleased with that "slip." My faith is not in my perfection, but in Christ's grace. Nevertheless, when I fail, I repent. Absolutely. 1 John 1:9 is for sinners, saints, and the Church.

I am so sorry PC. But I don't get it. Why would the blood of Christ cover the sin?

If I knowingly sinned, and I didn't take steps to repair the damage I had done and ask forgiveness, etc., then isn't that sin still in my heart? Christ would take away the stain because he was nice? Because all the rest of my confessions of Christ would make up the difference? What of justice? Can mercy rob justice?

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The faith vs. works argument that has gone on for so long is akin to a who's on first bit in my mind. There are those who claim that any statement to the effect that some action is necessary for a man to claim salvation is a denial of the grace of God.

This is like saying that the man who entered the soup kitchen and received free food paid for it simply by walking in the door and the establishment is lacking in either grace and/or efficacy as a charitable organization.

Our LORD's proclamation is: 'Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.' (Isaiah 55:1)

Certainly the gift of salvation is free, but our LORD does not force us into it. It is simply illogical, the notion that the partaking of the salvation of God is not necessary for eternal life. It is just as ridiculous to claim that partaking of food is not necessary for mortal life. It is still just as outrageous to pretend that eating food pays for it.

Our LORD has provided for us the waters of eternal life and comparing them to earthly waters He said: 'Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.' (John 4:13-14)

Now, can we pretend that the act of drinking the LORD's living water in some way pays for it? Is our LORD's grace lacking because He asks us to drink His water, to partake of everlasting life? Is His Blood ineffective because the choice is ours either to partake or not to partake?

Satan wants us very badly not to partake. It is He who rationalizes not partaking of these waters and who spouts such foolishness like: 'It is not necessary that you partake in order to receive life.'

I can hardly see how this argument even exists.

-a-train

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Repentance is necessary for true conversion. Only if we confess our sins will God be faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteous. BUT, once converted, we are not, every time we sin, being reconverted, when we repent. Rather, as Christians, as "saved" folk, we are now approaching our Father with our misdeeds, and asking him to forgive us, so that our relationship remains pure with him. Most churches even set aside a time, prior to taking of Sacrament (Communion) for such introspective repentance, because of Paul's admonition that if we approach the sacrament in an unworthy manner we may bring a curse upon ourselves.

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Oh. Thank you. That helps. We take that time as well before taking the sacrament. I think we differ a bit in that we believe each time you repent, it makes you more and more converted. But, I think I see what you are saying.

Again, thank you for your patient and gentle response.

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