Faith and works

[Misshalfway]

Yes, there is such a group. When of Calvin's teachings was "the perseverance of the saints." This sometimes gets translated as "once saved always saved." Such believers place great emphasis on "assurance of salvation."

Thing of it is, when one of them falls into sin, they simply say, "S/he wasn't really saved in the first place." And again, those who teach this, tend to also believer, they are saved because God chose them. They desire to demonstrate that they are chosen by doing good works and avoiding sin.

And who are the Calvinists today? Is this teaching found in one church or a few churches or is it scattered throughout Christianity?

I am guessing this is not evangelical teaching.

[Misshalfway]

If your wanting the official scripts look up...

Calvinism, Armininianism and Pelagianism.

Cutting and pasting (cause my last effort at explaining was terrible....

Pelagius preached justification through faith alone, but also believed salvation was finished through good works and moral uprightness.

Historically Pelagianism has come to represent any system that denies original sin, holds that by nature humans are capable of good, and maintains morality and works are part of the equation that yields salvation. Semi-Pelagiansim is a variation on the original more akin to Pelagius' own thought - that justification is through faith, but that Adam's original sin was merely a bad example, humans can naturally seek God, and salvation is completed through works. Both systems reject a Calvinist understanding of predestination.

I had the impressions Mormon's are generally closer to some form of pelagianism.

This is so interesting. I must admit being very confused though. I will have to give it all a read thru.

[Andrew777]

If your wanting the official scripts look up...

Calvinism, Armininianism and Pelagianism.

Cutting and pasting (cause my last effort at explaining was terrible....

Pelagius preached justification through faith alone, but also believed salvation was finished through good works and moral uprightness.

Historically Pelagianism has come to represent any system that denies original sin, holds that by nature humans are capable of good, and maintains morality and works are part of the equation that yields salvation. Semi-Pelagiansim is a variation on the original more akin to Pelagius' own thought - that justification is through faith, but that Adam's original sin was merely a bad example, humans can naturally seek God, and salvation is completed through works. Both systems reject a Calvinist understanding of predestination.

I had the impressions Mormon's are generally closer to some form of pelagianism.

I've always seen the beliefs as more like Wesleyan Arminianism, we are saved by faith but also need to do the works that are required, we need both. We are also born in a fallen state because of Adam's transgression we are born spiritually dead and to eventual physical death we need God and the atonement to overcome this, I may be misunderstanding.

[Guest tomk]

The "debate" between faith and works is a false dichotomy. Both are needed. The combination of both is what qualifies us for what is, in the end, a total GIFT anyways. We can never earn or deserve exaltation. But we can come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, partner with Him, and grow from grace to grace by His power. It is a partnership.

[Maureen]

Are there parts of Christianity that do teach that being 'saved' is a guarantee to Exaltation? Because I have been told this by many. And it seems by others who have posted on this thread that perhaps there are different interpretations of this idea.

Misshalfway, could you define Exaltation for me, just so I know that we are discussing the same thing?

Exaltation or Eternal life is living in the presence of God for the eternities.

As far as I know there are some denominations that believe in the "once saved, always saved" philosophy. A friend of mine believes that. I believe that it is possilbe to backslide, but think it would be rare; since true genuine faith would be strong enough to with stand any challenges in a believer's life.

M.

[Misshalfway]

The "debate" between faith and works is a false dichotomy. Both are needed. The combination of both is what qualifies us for what is, in the end, a total GIFT anyways. We can never earn or deserve exaltation. But we can come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, partner with Him, and grow from grace to grace by His power. It is a partnership.

Thank you. I like that word partnership. I would rather use this word than "deal".

[Guest tomk]

Thank you. I like that word partnership. I would rather use this word than "deal".

Thanks Miss.

[Misshalfway]

As far as I know there are some denominations that believe in the "once saved, always saved" philosophy. A friend of mine believes that. I believe that it is possilbe to backslide, but think it would be rare; since true genuine faith would be strong enough to with stand any challenges in a believer's life.

M.

Would you mind if I shared my confusion about that?

How is it possible for imperfect people to never or very seldom make mistakes? I guess the way I see it is that we all make mistakes -- even the best of us and that we all need continual repentance to keep us in the right way. What of continual learning at different levels and stages of ones life? What of spiritual maturity and repentance on those higher levels? What about the continually striving to obtain the Christ-like nature? Or does that change come all at once when a person is born again? And if that is so, then what purpose does continual devotion bring to the individual? If they have arrived, why strive?

Also, what do you feel are the requirements for obedience in your church? If there is a judgement at the end of life, what are we going to be on judged against?

Is there any other requirement other than faith for one to become converted? Any requirement to change their lives and repent? Or is it seen as a spiritual change only?

[Guest tomk]

It is about our actual relationship with Christ. Not the one we profess, but the one we actually have with Him.

[Maureen]

Would you mind if I shared my confusion about that?

How is it possible for imperfect people to never or very seldom make mistakes? I guess the way I see it is that we all make mistakes -- even the best of us and that we all need continual repentance to keep us in the right way. What of continual learning at different levels and stages of ones life? What of spiritual maturity and repentance on those higher levels? What about the continually striving to obtain the Christ-like nature? Or does that change come all at once when a person is born again? And if that is so, then what purpose does continual devotion bring to the individual? If they have arrived, why strive?

I believe when someone becomes a believer (converted due to God's grace) he changes spiritually and mentally. It doesn't mean we know everything, it means that we get to start fresh, with a clean slate. We have entered into a growing and enriching relationship with God. We will always be learning, still making mistakes and repenting (and learning from those mistakes). Our change due to conversion makes our relationship with God all the more exciting. And through that relationship we testify of God's wonderfulness to our family and friends.

Also, what do you feel are the requirements for obedience in your church?

I don't specifically have a church family right now, but I do believe that obedience towards God is a natural result of my conversion. Believers should have a desire to obey.

If there is a judgement at the end of life, what are we going to be on judged against?

I believe scripture says mankind will be judged according to their deeds. But to be honest how God will judge us, I would have to spend more time studying that.

Is there any other requirement other than faith for one to become converted? Any requirement to change their lives and repent? Or is it seen as a spiritual change only?

I believe that when a person has accepted God's grace through faith, that faith is the catalyst that enables a person to change their life. They have a desire to repent and become a new person. That spiritual and mental change is the force that helps a believer change their life and dedicate their new course to God. Faith isn't just something you say you have, faith is an action that produces wonderful results.

M.

[Maureen]

It is about our actual relationship with Christ. Not the one we profess, but the one we actually have with Him.

I agree.

M.

[Misshalfway]

Maureen,

Thanks for your answer.

We are so close in our beliefs. I think the only difference I see is that the process of how someone becomes converted and made clean. For us it is Faith in Jesus, Repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The first two are our work necessary to come to Christ -- breaking our hearts and wills and coming with a repentant heart. The last two wash away our sins and make us sanctified -- glorious gifts. And we have that new start you referred to. We also believe that at this time God promises to give you his saving grace in exchange for your commitment to follow him. We call it a covenant. It is a commitment to obey his commandments and live in the straight and narrow way. In exchange, Father blesses us with the gift of the Holy Ghost so that through out the remainder of ones life, Father can teach us "the truth of all things; and bring all things to your rememberance..." (john 14:26). It also helps us determine truth from error and helps us make choices for ourselves and our children. It also helps me know when I have made a mistake. It withdraws from me. And I know that I need to repent to get those good feelings back.

If works are not part of salvation, then does that mean that in the washing away of sin, mans accountability is also washed away? I get that a person wouldn't repent for things they don't see. But we are human and flawed even after we are converted.

Why is there going to be a judgement day, if works do not figure into the equation? If Christ sacrifice and being born again does literally make a person perfected, at least to the point of justification, then why preach repentance? And why would the Lord say "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

The way I see it is that our will is the only gift we can give to the Lord. He makes us responsible and accountable for our actions. If he didn't there wouldn't be a judgment. Unless of course, the judgement is only for the non-saved. Which isn't my understanding of scripture.

PC said that a converted person, while imperfect and sinful, is not moving in and out of salvation. That sounds like " saved once, saved always". It sounds like salvation is guaranteed or granted to all who profess the name of Christ -- but it has exceptions for severe sinfulness.

I am not clear on what God requires of man after becoming saved. It sounds to me like there are no requirements. That everything thereafter is only righteous expression of the individual. And that doesn't seem to cover all the degrees of sin in between. And there are so many scriptures that speak to the behavior of man. Why wouldn't the behavior of man factor into salvation? And it doesn't show me how God measures accountability in the protestant view.

I better also say that you all may see it differently and I am trying not to forget that.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

They way I have understood the difference between faith and works and grace is as follows.(I am Mormon)

We are saved by grace without works. That means we receive a kingdom and are resurrected. Those things are guaranteed(unless we commit the unpardonable sin). They are given as a free gift. However as D&C 132:5 says,

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

That means laws have been appointed to receive blessings. Laws that must be obeyed to accept the blessings. Now, there are degrees of blessings as gained through the position of the heart. For instance, I might pay my tithing, but try to withhold some money, though I don't. My heart wasn't in it, I cannot reap the full benefits because I doubted. So it is with the Atonement.

It is given as a free gift, but we have to show we accept His sacrifice given(there were sacrifices before Christ of animals). Meaning my Dad can make my a plate of Nachos, I say thank you, but then I just throw them in the trash. Did I really want them? Did I accept his service? Did I show I accepted his time and effort in the form of food? No.

This is where faith and works comes in. We have to believe in Christ to be saved into the higher kingdoms.(terrestrial, celestial) The telestial kingdom is for those who reject Christ in this world and the world to come. We have to believe what he has taught and those whom He hath sent, the apostles and prophets.

Now faith is a belief of things which are true but not seen, but faith without works is dead. Meaning there is no power or strength in the faith to bring blessings unless there are works. Works are the fruit of true faith. They are the shield against the adversary. We do things to represent our faith or belief in Christ, such as reading scriptures, such as praying. When we truly believe in Christ, then we will do what he has commanded because we believe it to be right, or if you have received a witness that it is true, because you know to be true. We obtain faith through righteousness, or righteous living.

Now if we obey all the laws of God, then we receive, or accept the fullness of the Atonement. All the blessings gained through the Atonement, or everything, are given to men. However they can choose what they want to accept. Our free agency. Thus we choose the kingdom we want by obeying or accepting into our hearts the laws of God.

The Celestial kingdom is gained by receiving the fullness of the Atonement, by obeying all the Laws of God given to you. If there are Laws that you know God has commanded, and you choose to make no effort to conform to that law, then according to the scriptures, you will receive a terrestial inheritance. Your heart wasn't fully devoted to the Lord for which the Celestial Kingdom is reserved for.

We are not perfect. We make mistakes but if our heart is innocent and pure in desire and we sincerely are trying our best, then we have no need to fear.

So grace, faith, and works? Depends on what you want. I'll tell you, any of the three kingdoms are better than this life. And nearly all men will gain a kingdom. Except those that commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost. Which a simple test is, do I know all things pertaining to God? No, so I do not have a perfect knowledge. We choose how much grace we want, but it is all offered to us and given without works on our part. It is our faith and our works that tells and shows the Lord what we want to have for an inheritance in the kingdoms of glory.

[Moksha]

This is how I have understood it: The Grace from God's mercy and love is what saves and what we do to curry favor or generate our own magic matters naught. Of course being LDS, I could be wrong about this representation.

Doesn't matter if you are LDS, it sounds like you got it spot on.

[Traveler]

Could someone please explain to me how personal responsibility and accountability work in the "saved by grace" philosophy?

EDIT: I think I need to add that I want to understand it from the non LDS Christian perspective. Thanks.

One of the devastating effects of the apostasy is the evolution of Christianity to incorporate Pagan notions and ideas – in particular the notions and ideas of the Herodians. Anciently it was believe that a person must be good and acceptable in order to enter into heaven and the goodness was determined on what were called the scales of Mot. And of course there was always the question of “good enough”. There is this notion of how good is good enough. A debate we often see in other forms even in modern religious circles.

Well the ancients stumbled on a wonderful idea. Sort of a back door into heaven. The idea is that if you can please the g-ds or a g-d that they could vouch for you and get you into heaven. This was more certain than figuring out how good to be good enough. But now the question is – How do you please the g-ds or any particular g-d?

If one understands the Herodians and there effects on early Christians one can better understand the context of the writings of Paul that was fighting bitterly against Christians mixing Christian beliefs with Paganism. This brings us back to ancient pagans trying to please the g-ds. You see many Pagans practiced various rituals that were believed to please the g-ds and thus allow them to be saved and given a place in heaven. Sometimes the rituals were simple verbal incantations that supposedly were guaranteed to please regardless of a person’s behavior and deeds.

When Jesus was asked what one must do for eternal life he responded that one must keep the commandments. Some do not understand what keeping the commandments mean and like the rich young man in question find “emptiness” is the commandments (kind of like thinking that by belonging to the right church one can be saved rather than by being a saint). In the attempt to bring this person through the emptiness, Jesus pressed the man for better understanding – but the man refused the Christ’s advice not knowing that such advice was given by “grace” as are the commandments and everything else from G-d. The simple truth is that accepting the commandments (and other things from G-d) to their fullness and not in emptiness is the only way any man can benefit from G-d’s grace.

This understanding escapes many that have adopted the pagan rituals and incantation concept thinking that by pleasing G-d in such a manner they are better suited for G-d’s grace than by keeping his commandments. And so the arguments of grace and works continue even in our day and time.

The Traveler

[lostnfound]

One of the devastating effects of the apostasy is the evolution of Christianity to incorporate Pagan notions and ideas – in particular the notions and ideas of the Herodians. Anciently it was believe that a person must be good and acceptable in order to enter into heaven and the goodness was determined on what were called the scales of Mot. And of course there was always the question of “good enough”. There is this notion of how good is good enough. A debate we often see in other forms even in modern religious circles.

Well the ancients stumbled on a wonderful idea. Sort of a back door into heaven. The idea is that if you can please the g-ds or a g-d that they could vouch for you and get you into heaven. This was more certain than figuring out how good to be good enough. But now the question is – How do you please the g-ds or any particular g-d?

If one understands the Herodians and there effects on early Christians one can better understand the context of the writings of Paul that was fighting bitterly against Christians mixing Christian beliefs with Paganism. This brings us back to ancient pagans trying to please the g-ds. You see many Pagans practiced various rituals that were believed to please the g-ds and thus allow them to be saved and given a place in heaven. Sometimes the rituals were simple verbal incantations that supposedly were guaranteed to please regardless of a person’s behavior and deeds.

When Jesus was asked what one must do for eternal life he responded that one must keep the commandments. Some do not understand what keeping the commandments mean and like the rich young man in question find “emptiness” is the commandments (kind of like thinking that by belonging to the right church one can be saved rather than by being a saint). In the attempt to bring this person through the emptiness, Jesus pressed the man for better understanding – but the man refused the Christ’s advice not knowing that such advice was given by “grace” as are the commandments and everything else from G-d. The simple truth is that accepting the commandments (and other things from G-d) to their fullness and not in emptiness is the only way any man can benefit from G-d’s grace.

This understanding escapes many that have adopted the pagan rituals and incantation concept thinking that by pleasing G-d in such a manner they are better suited for G-d’s grace than by keeping his commandments. And so the arguments of grace and works continue even in our day and time.

The Traveler

Just curious travelor where did you get this knowledge and conculsion from? I am in agreement with you in regards to the early church fighting pagenism.but I am curious as to your source and end conclusion on grace being a pagen thought. :)

[lostnfound]

To Mormons, earning salvation is impossible too. We can't resurrect ourselves. We can't forgive ourselves. It is all grace. And grace in the very actions of our daily lives helping us live and overcome the sins of the day. I think that this is a misconception about the mormon faith. We believe that we must be obedient for blessings of the Lord to come into our lives. Disobedience has its consequences too. I think this might be where the misunderstanding lies.

I am glad to understand this better. I actually thought being "saved" was the easy way to God. Like all one has to do is confess Christ, and you have got it made. That felt like earning to me. But that didn't make complete sense to me considering all the discussions about Heaven and Hell. Hmmm...... I think I understand a little better.

Misshalfway,

here is another analogy for you.:)

Lets say you get stopped for a traffic ticket. you know your guilty. The police know your guilty. You go to court. The judge knows your guilty. Somebody has to pay the fine. Then all of the sudden the Judge looks down on you with mercy and reaches down into his pocket and pulls out 100.0 to pay your traffic ticket. Did you earn it? No. Did you do anything special to deserve it? No. You have be willing to accept this free gift though.

It is the same with Jesus. He paid the price for what we owe and we did nothing in return to deserve it ..it's just that a free gift. A huge free gift. The most wonderful gift ever ETernal life to whoever believes in him.

[WillowTheWhisp]

:) We've actually got an LDS video which portrays the atonement in much the same way as that lostnfound. That's why we find it so hard to understand why people insist we don't believe this and no matter how much we explain that we do they (you) still insist that we don't. It is not that we earn grace by our good works but that our good works follow - 'by their fruits ye shall know them' - kinda like the gratitude thing you know.

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway,

here is another analogy for you.:)

Lets say you get stopped for a traffic ticket. you know your guilty. The police know your guilty. You go to court. The judge knows your guilty. Somebody has to pay the fine. Then all of the sudden the Judge looks down on you with mercy and reaches down into his pocket and pulls out 100.0 to pay your traffic ticket. Did you earn it? No. Did you do anything special to deserve it? No. You have be willing to accept this free gift though.

It is the same with Jesus. He paid the price for what we owe and we did nothing in return to deserve it ..it's just that a free gift. A huge free gift. The most wonderful gift ever ETernal life to whoever believes in him.

There is one part of the analogy that I think is missing. Someone comes and says they will pay the ticket. (the savior) But he does so ONLY if we promise to keep his commandments. He requires that commitment and does so thru covenant. It is like he says, I will pay the fine and keep you out of jail, but you must promise not to speed again.

I still didn't earn it. But, it is not a completely free and clear gift that requires nothing of me.

[Vanhin]

I like this one.

23 ¶ Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. (Matt. 18:23-25)

And this one:

14 ¶ For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 25:15-30)

It's clear from the teachings of Jesus Christ, that we must do our part to gain access to his grace. We must have faith in him, repent of our sins, and "work out our salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord" (Phillip. 2:12). That's not all, we must forgive others their tresspasses, or we will not receive forgiveness.

The fact that we can repent, is made possible because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. That's the grace of God. If the Atonement had not happened, no amount of begging, or pleading, or working would have helped our condition. We are all saved by grace, from our sins, if we will but repent and commit ourselves to the Lord, and keep his commaments. That's what Jesus taught, and that's what the apostels taught. "Repent and be baptized!".

This idea of saved by grace alone, is designed to absolve individuals of their resposibility. That is contrary to teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yes, verses 34 and 35 in Matthew 18 are rather significant aren't they?

[Misshalfway]

I view Heavenly Father as my perfect parent.....so I sometimes compare His activities to earthy parenting experience.

If a child goes to college and overspends and gets in trouble and the father bails the child out over and over, what does the child really learn? I think that it is a good father that would help, but then require something of their children. Paying back the loan....or working off the debt. But a free and clear gift, given over and over would only spoil the child.

I don't think Heavenly Father views us as corrupt and fallen and unable to create any righteousness out of our own free will. I think He made us. That in and of itself makes us inherently good. We can do many things that are wonderful....whether we are a believer or not. He has so very much faith in us and wants us to reach our potential. It isn't enough only to save us from punishment. That is only part of His purpose. He wants to save us from sin itself. He wants us to reach our full potential because He knows how wonderful exhaltation is and desperately wants to bless us with it. I don't believe God would just give it us so easily and punish the rest who for whatever circumstance didn't even learn of Christ in their life-time. I believe God is a perfect balance of mercy and justice. I think He has provided a Savior because we needed that ..... but also constructed commandments and ordinances because we needed that too. He is the perfect parent who loves us each individually dispite our many labels and levels of understanding. And who wants us to understand what he expects and who will dedicate and commit to that path, because then he can bless. He is so eager to bless -- but he won't irresponsibly.

[Guest tomk]

One observation I want to make.

We don't fully comprehend just what this is all about. The depth of love behind this process we are all going through together.

What God has to give us can only be had by our desiring it. It is a gift, that is true in the end. But the gift is enjoyed only by those who want it. Who seek it with all their hearts.

Part of receiving the Gift is obedience.

God is the way He is because of obedience to eternal law.

It is the same way for us. The obedience is not optional. It is IN and THROUGH the obedience that we gain the knowledge and experience to be able to enjoy the Gift Father wants to give us. We will enjoy it because we will be like Him. We will be like Him because we have learned to love and enjoy the same things He loves and enjoys. That comes through obedience. The Atonement powers this transformation, makes it possible.

D&C 88: 33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

[lostnfound]

There is one part of the analogy that I think is missing. Someone comes and says they will pay the ticket. (the savior) But he does so ONLY if we promise to keep his commandments. He requires that commitment and does so thru covenant. It is like he says, I will pay the fine and keep you out of jail, but you must promise not to speed again.

I still didn't earn it. But, it is not a completely free and clear gift that requires nothing of me.

I don't remember who said on the forum somewhere that prostestants and Lds agree..but this is a perfect example of how come people who have experienced the unconditional grace of christ on the cross say..oh no we do not agree. And once someone understands true freedom in Christ it really becomes clear. I think it was you that said something about what about sin. doesn't that make you unclean again? Great question and I was going to respond to that later today.

[Misshalfway]

Freedom is never free.