Xanmead33-an apology

[Elgama]

I am truly sorry if anything I wrote offended you it was not intended to do so - I ran all my posts past some nondenominational Christian friends before I posted them, I knew that you would struggle to understand the concepts (after 10 years of regular online conversation they still believe that I am someplace between mad and devil worship) but I didn't realise they were being impolite, and was under the impression we had sorted that out earlier in the thread. For a Latter Day Saint and a Christian to have dialogue is not easy its much more difficult for me to comprehend my Christian friends than those of any other faith I personally find their relationship with God difficult to fathom and them mine. And you are right Heavenly Father expects better of us than any other religion and we should be held to a greater standard and accountability - but all of us are also human and our God is very personal, these discussions can sometimes feel like a family member is under attack. Wrong of us but part and parcel of the strong bond many of us have with our Heavenly Father.

Skalenfel had a point that constantly quoting the Bible does invite contention - which is not of God, as the Bible says the doctrine is a pearl that should not be cast before swine - for me the type of discussion will always be the swine.

I hope you stick around like I said early on in the thread best way to get through to Latter Day Saints is not quoting at us its dialogging with us - look out for Dr T and PrisonChaplain, they are men we can all learn from, their ability to have an online conversation with us LDS and for both sides to feel the Holy Ghost is amazing. And if they are reading this serious hats off to both of you:) if Heavenly Father would let me I'd be converting

-Charley

[xanmad33]

Thank you Charley, from the bottom of my heart, and no, you didn't offend me;)

I would probably like to pick your brain some more sometime :)

[Misshalfway]

Xan,

I hope that you understand that so many come to fight us and show us how "wrong" and "evil" we are. Our church meetings are protested, our credibility is constantly under fire, and we are often asked questions that look innocent at first and then are turned upon us to engage us in defamatory debate. Not that I am saying this is your intension. I only say that to help you understand how LDS people may feel about conversations like the one on your thread.

On such a medium as this, the internet, it is difficult for any of us to know true intensions. I hope that you can understand at least in part where some of the defensiveness comes from. I am sure if we were dealing with you in person, you wouldn't feel such skepticism about your motives.

You love the bible and the Savior. I hope you can see that even though we may understand it differently, that we at least have that in common. And perhaps we can build future conversations from that common ground.

I personally didn't question your integrity as a person. I wasn't sure the exact nature of your intensions. I felt different things at different times as I tried to read and understand you. At the end of the day, I just felt the church was being misinterpreted and misunderstood. But that was to be expected perhaps with so many topics being discussed at once and so many comments from different perspectives and churches. Hopefully, we can dust ourselves off and start clean. What do you think?

[Elgama]

I am so glad your still around thank you for responding its been on my conscience all night, I can sleep now lol- I know shooting my mouth off and pride are my biggest faults and that leads me to doubt myself more than I should sometimes..... maybe I can learn to think you are as wonderful as Dr T and PrisonChaplain:) seriously though most of the people on this forum are amazing, and I am very fond of them

Take Care

-Charley

[xanmad33]

aww it's a love fest in here <3

I hold no contempt for anyone, I would love to delve deeper with you all, maybe point by point next time and in a happy lovey way

[WillowTheWhisp]

Xanmad, in your other thread you said:

And willow wisp--I could have come back with many other verses and we could go around all day, but at the end of the day it wouldn't matter and I would have wasted my time becasue you had already judged me and my intentions in previous posts, it was obvious to me based on what you had already accused me of that you werent receptive to anything I had to say.

I am sorry if anything I posted in that thread offended you. I was simply trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I did not, and still do not, agree with some of the things which you say we LDS believe, or with some of your interpretations of the Gospel. As I said in that thread although I will never change my beliefs to agree with yours I will defend your right to have those beliefs. You specifically asked me to answer some questions with reference to certain Bible verses - which I had started to do. I took a great deal of time to look up each of the verses you quoted and to read them in context and to try to relate them to the specific question which you asked. In several cases I couldn't see how the verses quoted actually related to the topic. If that offends you then I am truly sorry but you did ask the questions and you did ask me to answer those questions. I answered them to the best of my ability as far as my understanding of the scriptures goes. If that was not what you wished me to do then I must admit that I am thoroughly confused.

May I just ask you to clarify one point? I wasn't clear where you stand on the matter of Jesus Christ's existence. Do you believe he has always existed and has always been divine? I noticed that you emphasised that God was singular in the beginning of creation and so I wondered how that fits with what I believe to be New Testament teachings that Jesus Christ created all things.

I'm not asking this to be contentious. I'm asking because I am just puzzled as to what you do believe after reading all the posts in that other thread.

Again I must emphasise that at no time have I ever wished or do I ever wish to offend you.

[xanmad33]

Yes, I believe Jesus Christ has always existed.

In the beginning was the "word" and the word was with God and the "WORD" WAS God, and the Word became FLESH and dwelt among us.

I believe Jesus has eternally existed as The Word, and then became flesh, just as it says

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yes that is also what I believe. I was confused when you said that in the beginning God was singular.

[xanmad33]

God is spirit, Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

I know nobody wants to open this can up again

But for me it's important to be crystal clear about what I am saying, I posted this link already , and I really encourage you to go there for any further clarification on my beliefs about it because it is illistrated beautifully on the site

here is an excerpt from "the oneness of God" Chapter 4

"The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man's word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).

If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God, then it logically follows that Jesus is the Father. For those who somehow think that Jesus can be God and still not be the Father, we will offer additional biblical proof that Jesus is the Father. This will serve as more evidence that Jesus is God. Actually two verses of Scripture are sufficient to prove this point.

1. Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father.

2. Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.

3. In addition to these two verses, Jesus Himself taught that He was the Father. Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

We should note that he in the verse is in italics, which indicates that it is not in the original Greek, being added by the translators. Jesus was really identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews, who did not understand His meaning, asked, "Who art thou?" Jesus answered, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). However, "they understood not that he spake to them of the Father" (John 8:27). In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins.

4. In another place Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Some try to say that He was one with the Father much as a husband and wife are one or as two men can be one in agreement. This interpretation attempts to weaken the force of the assertion Jesus made. However, other verses fully support that Jesus was not only the Son in His humanity but also the Father in His deity.

5. For example, Jesus stated in John 12:45, "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." In other words, if a person sees Jesus as to His deity, he sees the Father.

6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ.

7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38).

8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7).

9. In John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." The Greek word translated "comfortless" is orphanos, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines as "bereaved ('orphans'), i.e. parentless." Jesus was saying, "I will not leave you as orphans" (NIV and TAB), or "I will not leave you fatherless: I will come to you." Jesus, speaking as the Father, promised that He would not leave His disciples fatherless.

Below are some comparisons which provide additional proof that Jesus is the Father.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21), yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24).

11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would send the Comforter (John 14:26).

12. The Father alone can draw men to God (John 6:44), yet Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32).

13. Jesus will raise up all believers at the last day (John 6:40), yet God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead and will raise us up (Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14).

14. Jesus promised to answer the believer's prayer (John 14:14), yet He said the Father would answer prayer (John 16:23).

15. Christ is our sanctifier (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

16. First John 3:1, 5 states that the Father loved us and was manifested to take away our sins, yet we know it was Christ who was manifested in the world to take away sin (John 1:29-31).

We can easily understand all of this if we realize that Jesus has a dual nature. He is both Spirit and flesh, God and man, Father and Son. On His human side He is the Son of man; on His divine side He is the Son of God and is the Father dwelling in flesh. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD for more on the Son and Chapter 6 - FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST for more on Father, Son, and Spirit.)

------------------------------------

Again I hope that helps clarify what I believe about the nature of God, I also hope nobody feels I am throwing scripture around. You asked my belief and I just want to be crystal clear :)

[skalenfehl]

I need to sit down for an hour and read through that page. So far by glancing over it quickly, I agree with everything in there. We have always believed that Jesus is Jehova and the God of the Old Testament.

[xanmad33]

its a good read, and I highly reccomend the site! Wow are we really in agreement on this!!? lol

get ready I feel a new thread shaping up here

[ztodd]

Hi xanmad, I didn't say much in your other thread- I think I only made one post there. :) But I just want to refer you to the first rule of the forum:

Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is contrary to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I know that they do actually allow people some lattitude with this, but if I remember right, the way I've heard Heather (the site admin) say it is that they don't allow people to make posts to proselyte a non-LDS faith or to preach against LDS teachings. If you're just sharing what you believe so that we can find common ground or compare to LDS beliefs, that's probably fine, but your last post seems to go beyond just expressing your beliefs. I don't know if that whole big long post was really necessary in order for you to simply state your belief that Jesus and the Father are one being.

I don't resent you for wanting to share your beliefs- it's very noble of you. But it's really not supposed to be allowed here for you to keep preaching non-LDS doctrine. On another forum it would be a wonderful thing to do.

[xanmad33]

z-todd, I was asked for clarification on my beliefs. Just as you would want to make crystal clear when someone misunderstands you, I feel the same way.

I also do not fully know what you believe enough to know that that was completely opposed to it, and it was kinda the question, so thank you for the info, and in the future I will be more discerning.

[skalenfehl]

its a good read, and I highly reccomend the site! Wow are we really in agreement on this!!? lol

get ready I feel a new thread shaping up here

I think as long as we continue to build on common ground we can actually move forward. I also think we've been saying a lot of the same things in our other post, but we were talking over each other so much that we didn't give each other enough time to digest what we were saying.

Edit: This is also the appropriate forum to discuss General Religious Discussions with Friends of Other Faiths. I will continue to approach this discussion prayerfully.

[Dale]

Xan-i have a suggestion for you. Why don't you post a short post with a few top of your questions for us? Instead of debating back and forth let everyone as a group simply work on answering your original question post. That way it won't be as a chaotic, or contentious of a discussion.

I really hate you to leave the discussions here.

[xanmad33]

Xan-i have a suggestion for you. Why don't you post a short post with a few top of your questions for us? Instead of debating back and forth let everyone as a group simply work on answering your original question post. That way it won't be as a chaotic, or contentious of a discussion.

I really hate you to leave the discussions here.

to leave them in this thread?

[Elgama]

might be a good idea to start a new thread dealing with one topic at a time - that way we may also get more non LDS Christians joining in and you won;t feel like you need to deal with every point on your own.

Charley

[skalenfehl]

Good point. Let's make this thread about Jesus being God and Jehovah. Is that ok xanmad or you can start a new thread?

[ztodd]

z-todd, I was asked for clarification on my beliefs. Just as you would want to make crystal clear when someone misunderstands you, I feel the same way.

I also do not fully know what you believe enough to know that that was completely opposed to it, and it was kinda the question, so thank you for the info, and in the future I will be more discerning.

I hear you. Sometimes there's nothing worse than being misunderstood.

Our beliefs are similar in that regard I think. I wouldn't say they're completely opposed.

[xanmad33]

Good point. Let's make this thread about Jesus being God and Jehovah. Is that ok xanmad or you can start a new thread?

done :)