The Nature of God

[xanmad33]

I posted int the apology thread my beliefs about God/Jesus

I'm not going to repost them here because I was warned that they are opposed to LDS teachings therefore they really should't have been posted.

Can you clarify the points that are opposed to lds teachings? and why?

P.S. I looove to talk religion, I am loving but I am also blunt in my delivery, please do not read my lack of emotion as anything other than my attempt to discuss things without hurting feelings :)

Thank you for everyones love and honest answers in posts past, I would love to build friendship with you all through good, honest, thought provoking conversation, thank you!

PSS--I would also like to stay on point if we can thanks :)

[skalenfehl]

We believe that Jesus Christ is Jehova. I'll post more. I've been going over the Isaiah verses in your page. (I love the book of Isaiah!)

[xanmad33]

In the page I just posted in the Apology thread?

[skalenfehl]

Isa. 9: 6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I love this scripture and Handel's musical rendition praising Christ!

Isa. 11: 1

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Jesse was the father of David; reference is made to the royal Davidic genealogical line in which Jesus is eventually born. Also from what I have learned in my studies is that Joseph's Genealogy is essentially Mary's Genealogy for they were cousins (or at least shared a lineage). Jesus inherited from His mother the blood of David and thereafter the right to David's throne. Had Judah been a free and independent nation ruled by the rightful sovereign, Joseph the carpenter would have been the next king and his successor would have been Jesus Christ.

[skalenfehl]

In the page I just posted in the Apology thread?

Oh, oops. Am I going the wrong way? I'll need to check the apology thread again. I thought we were talking about that web page you posted "chapter 4".

[xanmad33]

I too love Isaiah :)

Let me ask you, did you finish my post in the apology thread? Can you tell me what you disagree with?

Or Maybe z-todd can?

[skalenfehl]

I too love Isaiah :)

Let me ask you, did you finish my post in the apology thread? Can you tell me what you disagree with?

Or Maybe z-todd can?

I'll check it out.

[skalenfehl]

Yes, we believe that Jesus is God, He is the Father and the Son as you believe and as I have so far read in your web page. We also believe that He has a Father in Heaven. There are also scriptures to support this, such as when Christ was baptized and a voice came from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased". Also when Stephen was martyred in the New Testament, he saw Christ and God, His Father, before he died. Also in John chapter 17 when Christ offers His intercessory prayer to His Father He prayed that his disciples would be one also as Christ and the Father were one. That was also to mean one in unity and purpose (man's salvation). Verses 20-23 more specifically:

John 17: 20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So we believe that Christ is Jehovah and our Father, but we also believe that Christ has a Father in Heaven and that they are two separate and distinct personages.

[xanmad33]

Yes, we believe that Jesus is God, He is the Father and the Son as you believe and as I have so far read in your web page. We also believe that He has a Father in Heaven. There are also scriptures to support this, such as when Christ was baptized and a voice came from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".

I don't see this as concrete proof, certainly not a verse to base a religion on.

I personally see it as more of a reason to study the word and see what else the Bible says about the Nature of God. God being omnipresent and omnipotent, could certainly do anything, even encourage the physical manifestation of himself, especially since right after that Jesus went to the desert to be tempted by the devil.

Also when Stephen was martyred in the New Testament, he saw Christ and God, His Father, before he died.

This verse says that Stephen saw the "glory of God" and Jesus at the right hand of the father- Not that he actually saw a distinct person that was God.

What do you say to the other verses that say that No man has seen the father (John 1:18)

such as-- "NO man has seen God at anytime" (John 1:18; I John 4:12).

--God "The Father," is a Spirit and as such is invisible (Colossians 1: 15; I Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:27).

Stephen did not see two Gods... He did not say, "I see Jesus standing beside God." The term, "right hand of God" is from Exodus 15:6-- Moses and the Israelites claimed to have "seen the right hand of God." But God is a Spirit with neither right nor left hand; what they saw was a manifestation of God's power and glory. As an Israelite, Stephen knew what "the right hand of God" meant. He saw the Son of Man in power and glory.

Also in John chapter 17 when Christ offers His intercessory prayer to His Father He prayed that his disciples would be one also as Christ and the Father were one. That was also to mean one in unity and purpose (man's salvation). Verses 20-23 more specifically:

John 17: 20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

I do not see how that verse proves that they are seperate personages?

When there is a confusing verse, you must search the rest of scripture to clear up the confusion. The FULL weight of scripture must be applied. There is nowhere in those verses where it states there are two or more gods. These instances, ilbeit difficult to understand, in no way prove a 2 or more god theory.

So we believe that Christ is Jehovah and our Father, but we also believe that Christ has a Father in Heaven and that they are two separate and distinct personages.

Is that belief based on these scriptures alone?

What about all the other scrupture I quoted on the other page?

this is interesting though, thanks for discussing your beliefs with me :)

[skalenfehl]

I'll address each point separately, if that's ok. It will give me time to type up the next response while you reference what I have posted.

[xanmad33]

yeah, i agree that will be better :)

[skalenfehl]

I don't see this as concrete proof, certainly not a verse to base a religion on.

I personally see it as more of a reason to study the word and see what else the Bible says about the Nature of God. God being omnipresent and omnipotent, could certainly do anything, even encourage the physical manifestation of himself, especially since right after that Jesus went to the desert to be tempted by the devil.

You're right. Our religion isn't based solely on that verse. But you gotta admit, it is reasonable to say that when the children of Israel heard a voice come from Heaven when Christ was baptized, the voice came from someone other than Christ, who was coming up out of the water down here on earth. For the sake of argument, this is a reasonable statement.

About Jesus going to the desert to be tempted of the devil, I submit to you that no righteous man or woman seeks out temptation.

Matt. 4: 1-11

1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

There is something I must point out why we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. The following may make you feel uncomfortable: I mentioned in the "big thread" that Joseph Smith began translating the Bible through divine revelation. In Joseph Smith's translation verse one would have read, had it not been corrupted by an editor, scribe, or whoever translated this portion initially:

1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be with God.

But this is beside the point, sort of. Sorry, not trying to go on a tangent, but to address your point.

(cont....)

[xanmad33]

You're right. Our religion isn't based solely on that verse. But you gotta admit, it is reasonable to say that when the children of Israel heard a voice come from Heaven when Christ was baptized, the voice came from someone other than Christ, who was coming up out of the water down here on earth. For the sake of argument, this is a reasonable statement.

About Jesus going to the desert to be tempted of the devil, I submit to you that no righteous man or woman seeks out temptation.

Right Skalen I meant that, I used the wrong word, I was focused on the other matter.

stay focused!

In this case it would also be reasonable to argue the point that God is omnipresent and since Jesus was God manifest in the flesh then it would not be difficult for the Spirit (that is omnipresent) of Jesus to speak from heaven and to send a manifestation of His Spirit in the form of a dove

[skalenfehl]

Acts 7: 55-56

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Our understanding is that Christ, (the Son of Man) stood on the right hand of God just as He did when He and His Father both appeared to Joseph Smith. This is where we seem to differ. If all we had was the Bible, I may be inclined to agree with you, however our understanding is that Christ, as a resurrected and glorified being of flesh and bone (He ate fish with his disciples after resurrecting) stood literally to the right hand of God (edit: His Father).

What do you say to the other verses that say that No man has seen the father (John 1:18)

such as-- "NO man has seen God at anytime" (John 1:18; I John 4:12).

--God "The Father," is a Spirit and as such is invisible (Colossians 1: 15; I Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:27).

Only those of God have seen the Father.

John 6: 46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Ex. 24: 9-11

9 ¶ Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Ex. 33: 11

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Gen. 32: 30

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Only those of God could see God. Even though God was a spirit, He still had a body, only not of flesh and blood. He was still corporeal in nature and not invisible. Our spirits are finer matter, for lack of a better term.

(cont....)

[skalenfehl]

Right Skalen I meant that, I used the wrong word, I was focused on the other matter.

stay focused!

In this case it would also be reasonable to argue the point that God is omnipresent and since Jesus was God manifest in the flesh then it would not be difficult for the Spirit (that is omnipresent) of Jesus to speak from heaven and to send a manifestation of His Spirit in the form of a dove

here is a quote from "the oneness of God"

"The voice and the dove do not represent separate persons any more than the voice of God from Sinai indicates that the mountain was a separate intelligent person in the Godhead"

I can sort of see your point, but what did the mountain represent to you then?

[skalenfehl]

I do not see how that verse proves that they are seperate personages?

When there is a confusing verse, you must search the rest of scripture to clear up the confusion. The FULL weight of scripture must be applied. There is nowhere in those verses where it states there are two or more gods. These instances, ilbeit difficult to understand, in no way prove a 2 or more god theory.

I have carefully read the entire chapter over the years, and while it doesn't literally indicated that they are separate personages as you infer, we believe that Christ was praying to His Father in the New Testament. He prayed that His disciples would be one (and all who they taught would also be one) even as Christ and His own Father were one...in unity and purpose. They couldn't all be lumped up into one flesh or spirit or any other form. This is our doctrine.

Is that belief based on these scriptures alone?

What about all the other scrupture I quoted on the other page?

this is interesting though, thanks for discussing your beliefs with me

Our belief is partly based on the Biblical scriptures that I provided. There are a few more in the New Testament, but not many. It is through the restoration of Christ's church, as we believe was prophesied by Isaiah and others, that we know of the Godhead being three separate personages.

I have yet to go over all your other scriptures, but basically broken down is thus:

Jesus Christ is Jehovah in the Old Testament. He is the alpha and omega. He spoke with Moses face to face. He was a person of spirit matter (in the Old Testament), with a face, feet and all other limbs as you and I have. We were created in His image. He became flesh in the New Testament and when he went to the mountain to be with God (Heavenly Father)...or...tempted of the devil, as in King James version, He went to be with His Heavenly Father. When he taught the Jews to pray, He taught them to pray to Heavenly Father, which is His literal Father like my dad is my literal Father. When He appeared to Joseph Smith to restore His gospel, He appeared with His Father to Joseph Smith, just as we believe they appeared before Steffen.

This is where we differ, I believe. I'm happy to share this with you. Thanks also for sharing your beliefs. I'll check out the other scriptures that you posted. For now, I gotta get to bed.

[xanmad33]

Only those of God have seen the Father.

John 6: 46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

This verse proves my point skalen

here it is another way... "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. " ( John 6:46, NIV)

That is describing instances where people have seen God, the son.

Ex. 24: 9-11

9 ¶ Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

if we look in the Septuagint version we read the following:

"And they saw the place where the God of Israel stood."

When I have more time I will look into this further.

Ex. 33: 11

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Moses did not see God's face, read further in that chapter- the use of "face to face" was to put it into human terms. Joshua was also there but he never left the tent, he remained inside while Moses went out to talk with the LORD to be in His presence, but did not look into His face.

For God when he passed by Moses covered Moses' face so he would not die.

Ex 33:23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Since God is omnipresent, He can manifest Himself to different people in different places at any time.

Gen. 32: 30

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jacob’s “seeing” God as he wrestled with an angel .... He wrestled from night until daybreak with a heavenly being and eventually said: “I have seen God face to face.” He did not see God but instead witnessed a manifestation of God

The Hebrew term “face” has often the meaning of “presence.” like in the psalm, where it says, “Enter his presence with singing,” (Ps. 100:2) the original would read literally, “Come before his face with singing”; and “seek his presence continually” (Ps. 105:2) would be “seek his face.”

Again you must search scripture in it's entirety to get an answer to these questions.

I would reccommend a Strongs Conc. to look up original language whenever possible. Also keep in mind full context, here again the full context shows you he was wrestling with a manifestation of God.

Only those of God could see God. Even though God was a spirit, He still had a body, only not of flesh and blood. He was still corporeal in nature and not invisible. Our spirits are finer matter, for lack of a better term.

(cont....)

I disagree with this Biblically. If this is your belief from the BOM, I respect it but it cannot be reconciled with the Bible.

[skalenfehl]

I disagree with this Biblically. If this is your belief from the BOM, I respect it but it cannot be reconciled with the Bible.

I completely understand. I've been trying to look at this from your point of view, and I can almost see what you mean (had I never known the Book of Mormon or the restoration). Thank you for sharing that.

Now I really gotta get to bed.

Good night.

[a-train]

Here is where modalism and even trinitarianism gets into trouble: the body of Jesus. If the Father has no body but the Son does have a body, then They are physically seperate. If the Father and the Son are one Being, if Jesus is His own Father, then He (the Father) has a body.

-a-train

[Dale]

I see one more trouble for Trinitarianism. Did Jesus have a spirit body? (Luke 24:39) It does not say Jesus found his spirit form was different from that of other spirits. It is problematic to say they are one in essence if their was a personage of spirit in the Trinity. The creedal idea of God is based on the idea that vast differences existed between creature and creator.

One illustration in my Understanding The Trinity book compared Jesus to a sample of moon rock. In Jesus would be a tiny bit of God like the sample of the moon would be a tiny bit of the moon. But that God is bigger than can fit into Jesus body. So he allows us to sample what God is like.

[MaidservantX]

This may have already been said, and I know that you already understand this xan, but in my mind it bears reminder for us all.

The LDS understanding of the nature of God does NOT come from the Bible. Joseph Smith reported that he saw and visited with our heavenly Father, and with the Son of God, our Savior, Jesus Christ.

I believe this report. So, then, when I then go to read the Bible then I see all the verses that both you and Skal have taken a great deal of effort to present, and I see them through the lense of believing what Joseph Smith said happened to him. No Bible (or Book of Mormon for that matter) verse is going to violate -- for me and for most (?) LDS -- that immediate experience had by a prophet of God in these modern days. I am going to read all scripture about the nature of God as needing to go hand in hand with what was seen and heard on that day in the Sacred Grove, and understood in that context.

I am not ashamed of this lense of belief. :) It brings me a great deal of relief that I do NOT have to rely on an ancient text only, albeit definitely a godly one, but that I can have that ancient text and the interpretations of what it must mean be confirmed and enlightened by a more recent experience by a prophet.

That experience in the Sacred Grove teaches me that there are two men, one is the Son and one is His Father. It teaches me they look like men, like the bodies of men (rather that we are created in THEIR image). It teaches me that they answer prayer; that they speak to men (prophets); that they love us and that they (as Father and Son) love each other (the Father and the Son love each other! :) ). It teaches me that they are glorious and full of light. It teaches me that they are involved still in the personal and collective matters of men (their children). It teaches me that they know what they want in a church/ organization and are completely capable of organizing what they want in the present as they have in the past. It teaches me that they are One God because they have one work and one power and the Son represents the Father. They have one 'face' as they deal with their children on this earth. The Son does what the Father would do.

Since I do believe that God did visit Joseph Smith in the manner that Joseph said they did, then I know all of these things, and I can now recognize similar experiences of other men (prophets) as recorded in scripture (skal and you both presented them, with differing interpretations); and other descriptions given of the nature of God -- Father and Son -- in scripture become clearer to me as well, at least according to a belief and faith that I hold and have come by not by any means that I would take for granted, but by my own prayer, study and direct personal revelation, and by the experience of living daily life and receiving the fruits of my faith.

I have no interest in convincing you that I am right in my belief, xan. I have no interest in telling you that you are wrong. In fact I actually don't think you are wrong. About all I could say is that you are learning and God is teaching you; the same as I could say that I am learning and God is teaching me. We each will continue on this journey of faith until we understand perfectly, if not in mortality, well then in eternity, and perhaps it will be something more than either of us could have conceived of as we perceive through a glass darkly at the moment. :) I believe that I will be in the presence of my Father in heaven and in the presence of my Redeemer in eternity, and I daresay I will see you there too. :)

The Things of Which I Know

The Stone Cut Out of the Mountain

[Elgama]

Ok the website contains nothing that isn't in Latter Day Saint theology. However I personally found it cold and devoid of Jesus Christ really - this is why I just looked it and thought yeah I believe that but didn't see the real Jesus in it.

For me Jesus is above all else, saviour, lord, confidante, always there, my brother, my protector, friend, guide the qualities that come to mind first are mercy, love, great listener, sense of humour and fun, excitable at times, wise, strong and beautiful - long before I start thinking about who He has been for eternity its who He is to me now that is more important. To see it laid out like that with cold hard facts rather than love is like looking at his medical or government records or a potted biography of the Queen.

When I think about Jesus/Jehovah in the scriptures and who He is I don't think of those scriptures as much as the stories about Him - I also feel the site downplayed His humanness on Earth in Latter Day Saint theology He was fully God but also fully human. And that makes the New Testament more powerful to know He suffered as we do - it makes my relationship stronger.

In the New Testament when I think of who Jesus is in scripture the following come to mind - working with his Dad as a carpenter (I love that picture of Jesus and Joseph working together), teaching in the Temple at 12, standing upto Satan in the wilderness, His love and respect for small children, calling Zacheuus out of the tree, His baptism and Heavenly Father's parental love and pride, saving the wedding at Cana by turning water into wine, His obvious love and friendship with His apostles, sitting with Mary and Martha, helping the woman about to be stoned, clearing the Temple and his anger at His Father's House being mistreated, His loneliness when the apostles slept in Gethsemane, His fear, but ultimately giving His will entirely to the Father, healing the sick and the soldiers ear, remembering His Mum on the cross and forgiving the soldiers, His glorious resurrection coming quietly to Mary M that scene for me is so powerful. I think of Him returning to Earth with His arms open wide more than anything I want a hug and a blessing I am excited about that.

In the Old Testament when I think of Jehovah - I think of Him with Adam and Eve in the garden, in the Burning Bush, helping Noah build the Ark, Guiding Israel, My favourite is the story of Gideon and the cloth. And Jael and the tent peg - the Talking Donkey (now that shows His Humour)

In the Book of Mormon I love the story of the Brother of Jared, helping but at the same time teaching Him reliance, the same with the Nephites, the way He guided Nephi is amazing, His appearence and sermons to the Nephites.

To me this teaches me far more about Who our Lord and Saviour is than individual scriptures it is His personality and this is how we can recognise Him when He calls.

The scriptures also teach us through stories how to recognise Satan because his personality is described. I was fortunate I was given the Bible story tapes from the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was a child, and whilst I may not believe everything their religion teaches I am very greatful for the way they taught me to study the Bible I listened to the stories everynight going to bed and have come full circle I used to quote scripture a lot as I know my Bible and my Book of Mormon quite well, but then I learned the stories teach us more without contention than picking individual scriptures I find it sad that in discussions the stories that are so amazing and beautiful get lost when just a verse is picked out. The stories are what give us context and teach us not what Jesus is but WHO Jesus is, which really is more important, because we can comprehend WHO He is but really we can't comprehend WHAT. Below I have included some pictures that for me are who Jesus is.

When I think of the Father - I think of the beauty around me, and His love reflected in the world around us, and I think of His parental pride in the Saviour and I want that for me, I want Him to be proud of me too.

When I think of the Holy Ghost I think of John 14:27 and of peace and wisdom because it is through Him the Saviour teaches me and guides me

When I think of the Godhead together the Baptism of Jesus and Joseph Smith's vision are what I see the Baptism is particularly beautiful as in it you see Heavenly Father's parental love, the Saviour's submitting to the Father's will, his friendship with and respect of John the Baptist and setting the example for us and the Peace and guidance of the Holy Ghost. As I grow I realise all stories are a shadow of things to come and love the image of Noah and the dove leading the people out of the water and onto a new life. And this to me is where the Bible evidence for Joseph Smith, the apostasy and church begin to come in when you see the cycles and patterns in the scriptures. The Word of God is Jesus, and the scriptures come from Him - the Bible for me is one source of knowledge of the Word of God

This to me is the nature of God

-Charley

[Elgama]

Xhenli your spirit converts me everytime you post lol that was a beautiful post and changed the way I look at the First Vision for ever - thanks for helping me on a day when I couldn't get to church, I love the similarity yet difference in the relationship with God that our posts held and for me because we posted at almost the same time yous r post is my second witness that all I said was true. I have never quite expressed my feelings for the Saviour quite like that before and its my testimoney thank you Xan for the strength this thread has given my testimoney

-Charley

[WANDERER]

Xanmad for a bit of history on things try the wiki reference to the Great Awakenings Read the Influence on Political Life section and then look at the Second Great Awakening. A cultural context is an excellent way of looking at things, a different lens can be helpful.

[xanmad33]

Here is where modalism and even trinitarianism gets into trouble: the body of Jesus. If the Father has no body but the Son does have a body, then They are physically seperate. If the Father and the Son are one Being, if Jesus is His own Father, then He (the Father) has a body.

-a-train

If the FATHER is spirit that is omnipresent, why would a spirit need to exist physically seperate?

.