The Nature of God


xanmad33
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Willow,

Parallel lines never approach, they stay the same distance apart. What I am describing is the situation where a line approaches another and gets ever closer to it without actually reaching it. (The classic graph in maths is y=1/x) Sorry, I suffered 3 years of uni maths, so I don't see why I can't inflict it on everyone else.^_^

a-train,

I can't help feel LDS are reacting against what they see as errors in traditional Christian thinking of the nature of God, and this is warping their expression of the truth of God as scripture describes it. LDS seem to express things primarily to deny what Christians believe rather than to affirm what scriptures says. (Not you but many LDS seem to gag at saying "God is one", without immediately adding we really only mean one of purpose.)

Physically seperate: No problems with that, trad Christian offen percieve "spirits" as residing in multiple location but remaining the one spirit. Being non contiguous as to any specific material matter in our dimensions does not preclude being one being. (as I perceive it) Since I percieve that God exists both in dimension(s) outside the created universes dimensions (and as the persons will within our dimensions) then the persons could well be contiguous in those dimensions whilst not being so in our dimensions. (Although why does the word "being" necessitate contigous material in any dimension?)

Seperate histories: As in the Son was incarnate, the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost. It would be possible to write a history of each of the persons. (But of course history for me would logically cease before creation because history is the record of things through "time" and there was no time before time was created.)

Father and Son: Most Christians would affirm there is a familial eternal realtionship. LDS seems to presume that spiritual begotteness equates in theory if not in practice to mortal begotteness. Would you affirm that the Son was begotten before time, and equally that there was no time before he was begotten.

Do you agree that the unity of the godhead is such, that we will never be able to be as united with them as they are with each other? (Surely your doctrine of God progressing illiminates that as an option since the one God would alway be getting more unified even as we move towards unity.)

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I can't help feel LDS are reacting against what they see as errors in traditional Christian thinking of the nature of God, and this is warping their expression of the truth of God as scripture describes it. LDS seem to express things primarily to deny what Christians believe rather than to affirm what scriptures says. (Not you but many LDS seem to gag at saying "God is one", without immediately adding we really only mean one of purpose.)

Perhaps this is true. The appearant squirm of Mormons when it is said that the Father and the Son are One or that Jesus is God by a non-LDS person would be more pronounced in the eyes of the non-LDS.

In a class I taught (Elders Quorum) I asked the Elders to list the different ways, names, and titles by which we know Jesus. As words were given I listed them on the black-board.

Messiah

I AM

Christ

King of Kings

LORD of lords

Son of Man

Son of God

Alpha and Omega

Immanuel

Saviour

Jehovah

Yaweh

First Begotten

Only Begotten

Lion of the Tribe of Judah

Mediator

Lamb of God

etc. etc. (I won't list it all here)

The list grew to cover the whole board. The mass of it all was very impressive. As the group became unable to offer much more, there remained a striking ommision. I asked the brethren to turn to the front page of the Book of Mormon and find the one mentioned there. One of the fellas even said: 'We already listed 'the Christ'.' I asked: 'What does it say after the comma after 'Christ'?'

'THE ETERNAL GOD' was the reply.

I asked: 'Is Jesus God?' The group quickly nodded.

It is not as though Mormons don't believe that Jesus is God, heck the notion is not only all through our scriptures and writings, it is on the FRONT PAGE of the Book of Mormon.

Mormons have become defensive on the issue because they grow up in a world that tells them they are not Christian because they believe that the Father and Jesus are physically seperate Persons with individual corporeal bodies.

As a missionary Church that baptizes thousands, we witness the confusion about the Unity of the Godhead in the new members as they try to either reconcile Trinitarianism with Mormonism or understand the proper meaning of scriptures most commonly attributed to the Trinity doctrine.

All of us, Mormon or otherwise, must understand that the perception and meaning of the Unity of the Godhead varies in the minds of different people. The Unity is also not confined to only one specific area either. I think Mormons often do not want to accidentally convey something they don't mean by using what can be ambiguious terms slanted by presuppositions.

Physically seperate: No problems with that, trad Christian offen percieve "spirits" as residing in multiple location but remaining the one spirit. Being non contiguous as to any specific material matter in our dimensions does not preclude being one being.

Now I understand you would allow the notion of physical seperation within the Trinity doctrine. Many Trinitarians would disagree, however. That is where much of the confusion can result. The question can become: 'What is the true definition of the Trinity doctrine?'

If the Father and the Son are indeed physically seperate extensions of a Single Lifeform or Being, then we could rightly say that the Father could touch something while the Son does not and vice versa. With that model, the Son could have a body while the Father remains bodiless. However, the Single Being of the Godhead would therefore touch all that the Father and Son touches and thus would have a body: the body of the Son. The parallel could be a glove on your right hand. The left hand has no glove, but YOU have a glove. Statements then that you have no glove can only be true with respect to your left hand and not to you as a whole.

(as I perceive it) Since I percieve that God exists both in dimension(s) outside the created universes dimensions (and as the persons will within our dimensions) then the persons could well be contiguous in those dimensions whilst not being so in our dimensions. (Although why does the word "being" necessitate contigous material in any dimension?)

I asked this same question to PC once. Whether or not I was able to convey it well enough for him I know not. He, like many Trinitarian thinkers I know, answered essentially that the Father and Son are contigous. At least, as I understood him.

I once asked him and Dr.T and others about the 'official' definition of the Trinity doctrine and some material was observed, but it did not really answer this quesiton. I am perfectly fine with the answer being 'we don't know'.

In fact, I don't think we have anything in Mormonism that would somehow preclude the notion of some sort of contiguity of the Godhead outside of space and time. The Mormon position is a lot less complicated than that. I just don't think we have any real revelation on the subject (Mormon or otherwise). The Mormon position is simply that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's and so does the Son. The two bodies are distinct and individual. I asked PC what notion within the Trinity doctrine would contradict that, but He did not give me anything that made me feel like I knew the answer. I am still asking this question.

Seperate histories: As in the Son was incarnate, the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost. It would be possible to write a history of each of the persons. (But of course history for me would logically cease before creation because history is the record of things through "time" and there was no time before time was created.)

Again, the pre-history is completely outside of known revelation, so your guess is as good as mine. My meaning of 'seperate histories' is precisely as you describe, it should not be confused with 'origins'.

Father and Son: Most Christians would affirm there is a familial eternal realtionship. LDS seems to presume that spiritual begotteness equates in theory if not in practice to mortal begotteness. Would you affirm that the Son was begotten before time, and equally that there was no time before he was begotten.

I don't think we know the real answer to that. First, we don't know when time began. Was it at the Grand Council? The First Creation? The Fall? Some time distantly before that? We don't know.

We have but tiny glimpses of which I am aware into this subject from the prophets. Joseph Smith at least told us that the Father is not in time now. In fact, we do not have any indication that the Father has ever entered time during our earth's existance. Joseph Smith put time in terms of a perception rather than a function of the movements of the cosmos.

Was the Saviour begotten in time while the Father was not in time? We know not. If I interpret Joseph Smith correctly, he was saying that we came into time from our original perception. He would have called that travel 'passing through the veil.' He taught that to God all things are present: past, present, and future are one eternal now. All of us came from eternity and will return.

Do you agree that the unity of the godhead is such, that we will never be able to be as united with them as they are with each other? (Surely your doctrine of God progressing illiminates that as an option since the one God would alway be getting more unified even as we move towards unity.)

I don't think the doctrine of Eternal Progression in any way would pose a problem there. The unity with God given to the righteous is believed by Mormons to be akin to that unity extant within the Godhead. Mormons take very literally the prayer of Jesus to the Father concerning the disciples: 'That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:'(John 17:21-22)

-a-train

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a-train,

I'm probably not a good judge on the doctrine of the trinity, the creeds IMHO are an attempt by one group of Christians at one time to mirror what the bible taught in terms that made sense to them, I attempt to believe what the bible declares about God and if the creeds agree well and good.

I wonder how many evanglelicals would support the Nicene creed when it talks of "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins".

When does time begin is a great question? But surely for Jesus to be "the eternal God", he must have been begotten before time and he must have been God before time. Do LDS differentiate between begotten and created? As in you beget children and you create things.

I have a whacky thought that I have meant to share with you for some time, this is just an abstract idea I had (I'm not sure how well I can express it and I'm sure both LDS and Trad Christians will describe it as heretical, so I'd like to make it perfectly clear it is just a pondering on the absurd)....

If eternity exist outside time and we are going to be eternal, then we will exist outside time. If eternal time corresponds to an eternal now, in which all times share the same relationship with eternity as each other, then when we pass into eternity we are passing into an eternal now. So that at that point of entering eternity we suddenly have the same relationship with every point in the time continuum of this realm. Effectively our post mortal self exists through all time, going back to even before we were born. Thus causing us to effectively have a pre-mortal existence. Under this understanding you could equally say that God created us at a point but equally that we exist pre-mortally as our post mortal selves.

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When does time begin is a great question? But surely for Jesus to be "the eternal God", he must have been begotten before time and he must have been God before time. Do LDS differentiate between begotten and created? As in you beget children and you create things.

Oh certainly. Children are begotten, skateboards are created.

The event whereby the Saviour was Begotten as the Only Begotten happened in time. It happened in Bethlehem.

The event which made Him the First Begotten also happened in time. This was on that Sunday we celebrate every Easter.

There is also another sense in which He was begotten to the Father, the sense to which you refer. This event or circumstance took place or was extant before earth's creation. Mormons do not see any necessity that it took place in eternity rather than time. Regardless of when it occured, it did not mark the beginning of Jesus' existance.

If eternity exist outside time and we are going to be eternal, then we will exist outside time. If eternal time corresponds to an eternal now, in which all times share the same relationship with eternity as each other, then when we pass into eternity we are passing into an eternal now. So that at that point of entering eternity we suddenly have the same relationship with every point in the time continuum of this realm. Effectively our post mortal self exists through all time, going back to even before we were born. Thus causing us to effectively have a pre-mortal existence. Under this understanding you could equally say that God created us at a point but equally that we exist pre-mortally as our post mortal selves.

And with that, AnthonyB my friend, you are officially my closest kindred spirit on LDS.net. Even most Mormons struggle getting their head around that.

It all starts to bring new light to the phrase: 'Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.' (Matt. 6:34)

Josh 24:15: 'choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.'

'And he that receiveth these things receiveth me; and they shall be gathered unto me in time and in eternity.' (D&C 39:22)

Alma 40:8: 'Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.'

You have surely heard of Kolob. As insignificant as it is to Mormons, it is often spoken of by our critics. What is it? Joseph Smith says: 'Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time.' (Book of Abraham Fac. 2, Fig. 1)

Time is only a perception which is characteristic of mortality. I would say that it begins and ends as we pass through the veil.

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That's wonderful- I don't fault you for that one bit. But I just wish you could know that it is possible for you to also gain a spiritual witness by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I have never said it wasn't ;)
Cool, that's where I hoped to find a common belief. But which is more important to you- gaining and improving your spiritual testimony, or increasing your confidence in historic evidence? Which will actually bring you closer to God?

By the way, since you agree that it is possible for us to gain our own spiritual witness, do you believe it is also possible that God could have come down to personally appear to a boy to answer his prayer and instruct him to help restore a true church to the earth?

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Xanmad33: I posted a thread titled “The nature of G-d and the reason of salvation” under the LDS Gospel Discussion forum. If you are interested it indicates my view of many in the religious community attempting to speak of the nature of G-d and salvation and why I personally find their witness bogus, hypocritical and in general lacking.

Anyone can claim to have a personal relationship with G-d – and they may even believe that they do. What a person says or believes is not what determines truth. For many that claim to be Christian there is often little evidence to convict them if a court were held – especially if the methods they suggest for others were applied to themselves.

The Traveler

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Xanmad33: I posted a thread titled “The nature of G-d and the reason of salvation” under the LDS Gospel Discussion forum. If you are interested it indicates my view of many in the religious community attempting to speak of the nature of G-d and salvation and why I personally find their witness bogus, hypocritical and in general lacking.

Anyone can claim to have a personal relationship with G-d – and they may even believe that they do. What a person says or believes is not what determines truth. For many that claim to be Christian there is often little evidence to convict them if a court were held – especially if the methods they suggest for others were applied to themselves.

The Traveler

Traveler, I have no interest in engaging in further discussion with you.

Any discussion between the two of us would really probably do no good.

If you are interested in what I believe, you can mull over the past 3 threads that I have been a part of.

I agree with you that anyone can claim to be a "Christian" but it's true...many people claim this everyday, all the while treating others with spite, anger, and hate... it's beyond me...but..like you said people do it every day.

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Xanmad33: I posted a thread titled “The nature of G-d and the reason of salvation” under the LDS Gospel Discussion forum. If you are interested it indicates my view of many in the religious community attempting to speak of the nature of G-d and salvation and why I personally find their witness bogus, hypocritical and in general lacking.

Anyone can claim to have a personal relationship with G-d – and they may even believe that they do. What a person says or believes is not what determines truth. For many that claim to be Christian there is often little evidence to convict them if a court were held – especially if the methods they suggest for others were applied to themselves.

The Traveler

I would have to disagree with you, Traveler. I believe that God loves all of his children, and seeks to have as great a personal relationship with each of us, as we are willing to have with him. In his first two volumes of Exploring Mormon Thought, Blake Ostler explains that the Godhead is all about a loving relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and that God wishes us to enter into that same loving relationship with him (John 17, 3 Ne 11, 27). In fact, this is what the two great commandments are all about.

God has created three levels of HEAVEN, in order to provide all his children as great a relationship with the Godhead as they are ready and willing to enter into. I truly do believe other Christians and non-Christians, when they say they have a personal relationship with God. Now, what does that mean? Does the Christian, who is a crack addict and adulterer, have as close a relationship with God as the Prophet or Pope? Probably not. Part of developing a relationship with anyone is becoming like that individual. Our sins keep us from developing the closest of relationships with Christ and God, and therefore it may be a telestial or terrestrial relationship, at best. But it is still a heavenly relationship.

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a-train,

Thanks for the complement; the time thing is hard to get the mind around. I initially presumed that it would be an arc (our time dimension) with a loci (eternity) thus ruling out any change in God (Making a very traditional Christian eternal history.). Of course I now see that there are other solutions, firstly that the loci (eternity) could be one point in God’s time continuum at which the whole of our time takes place. Or that the arc (our time) could relate to any point (or a section of points) in God’s time dimension with the same relationship. (ie God passes through (at least a section of) his time dimension whilst always remaining in an eternal now in regards to ours.) (Which would fit LDS better.)

BTW As a side comment, the current best estimate of sting theory is that the universe has 11 dimension, only 4 of which are used in this earth. Now the numbers 4 for earth and 7 for heaven fit biblical numbers very well. However LDS could make an even further jump 4 for this earth (3 space and 1 time) the telestial kingdom, 4 for the terestial kingdom (3 space and 1 time) and 3 for the celestial kingdom (3 space and timelessness.) Of course we don’t as yet know exactly what the other dimensions are, or indeed if string theory is just a huge ball of useless twine.

As for your saying that LDS don’t want to confuse people by what they say, surely our priority should be to speak the truth, above making it understandable. (Which is why trad Christians have stuck to the trinity even though it is confusing; they are determined to attempt to say the truth as revealed in the bible regardless of how confusing the result may be.)

Jesus both said and agreed on the greatest command, which is (from Mark 12:29-30)…

The Lord your God, the Lord is one, love the Lord your God with all you heart mind strength and soul.

Now translating into partial Hebrew we get….

Y**h our Elohim, Y**h is one, love Y**h your Elohim with…

Now LDS believe Y**h refers to Jesus, Elohim means gods (but I think in this case even LDS will admit that Elohim should be used as God not gods.

So in LDS terms (you might of course decide that Y**h meant the Father here but persons who share the same name might turn out to be the same being)….:o

Jesus your God, Jesus is one; love Jesus your God with…

So for LDS the confession of Jesus as God should be the number one priority as it is what he said was the first part of the greatest command. It should be coming up first in a list of things LDS say about Jesus, which was surely the point of it being so early in the BOM.

I still maintain that by saying that God is only one in purpose LDS are clearly understating what both the Bible and BOM say about the nature of God. Given the number of statements of oneness compared to the number statements of threeness (as distinct from personhood statements, actually saying “God is three”) surely the emphasis should be on the oneness not any threeness.

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Where the issue goes to pieces for most Trinitarians is when Mormons say that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone and has at some unknown time endured mortality. We know nothing of it more than that. This truth offers an insight to what and who God is.

For some reason, the Oneness espoused by most of Christianity clashes with that notion. As you've mentioned it is not entirely irreconcilable with the Trinity doctrine. Perhaps it was a long time ago, but with much of the modern thinking such as those things you've mentioned, it becomes less problematic.

What Mormons need to do is simply not worry about trashing the Trinity doctrine. There have been many falsehoods about the Godhead connected to Trinitarianism that I don't believe are necessarily part of it. An example being the old saying that God has 'no body, parts, or passions'. Clearly most Trinitarian thinkers believe Jesus has a body, parts, and passions.

Because the perception of the Oneness of the Godhead has somehow caused so many Christians to find the LDS position heritical, the LDS have felt compelled to demonstrate the true nature of that Oneness. But the communication tends to make Trinitarians believe that Mormons reject Oneness altogether.

What is a better, simpler approach is to stick directly to the scriptures. The scriptures say that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are One God. They also say that the Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's, so also does the Son, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bone.

All the theory in the world will not explain the scriptures away. We should not feel compelled to present any specific model or thesis that will describe the intricacies of the Unity of the Godhead while preserving the distinctive features of the Holy Three.

What the scriptures say is enough. I am comfortable quoting just what the Book or Mormon says: 'And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.' (2 Nephi 31:12)

-a-train

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There are actually a few other issues on Trinity that I've thought about that seem to be difficult to explain.

If God is of a different substance than us, and always will be, how is it that we will be able to be with Him and in His heaven eternally? Or are these metaphors? Unless the meaning is solely that we will go to heaven (whatever that entails) where God actually isn't, since the Trinitarian God takes up no space and yet fills everything, and.... not quite sure where it would go next. If God fills everything, then why look forward to being in heaven with him, when there is no place that physically contains the Trinitarian version of God? And how can we dwell with him, when there is nothing physical to dwell with? It seems there still would be a form of separation that could not be broached, without contaminating the purity of God's substance.

Do any of the Trinitarians on list have an answer to these questions? I'm sincerely interested in knowing how your theology would answer these things - whether it fits into metaphors, mysteries, or an actual logical explanation.

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rameumptom,

I am thinking about how to answer you questions, but whilst I work on my reply can you answer the following which I think is linked to your questions.

If God is an exalted man with one physical set of ears who physically resides somewhere in universe (I think a-train has hinted that He isn't physically in this universe but I stick with what I think most LDS express it as ) how does He hear all the people who pray to him? How does he process all that information, how does the sound waves travel to whereever he is (If Kolob is at the center of the universe even light would take may years to get there)? How does he hear the prayers inside our heads and know the inclinations of our hearts?

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The 1835 Lectures on Faith described the Holy Spirit as the mind of Father and Son. It gives them a common mind of sorts even though LDS belief is that they retain their own minds. Certainly the Holy Spirit is what allows God to hear prayers, and know our hearts.

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Do any of the Trinitarians on list have an answer to these questions? I'm sincerely interested in knowing how your theology would answer these things - whether it fits into metaphors, mysteries, or an actual logical explanation.

In John's Revelation we read that the glory of God will illumine the heavenly kingdom--no need for sun or moon. Likewise, no more need for Temple or church, since God will be present everywhere, obviously in some sense greater than what we experience now.

The difference between then and now is that today we experience God via his creation. In the existence to come, our experience will be direct. How that will work, I can only guess at...but it will be glorious, and very likely made possible through our exaltation (or 'glorified resurrected bodies' to use evangelical verbage).

Since God is indeed omnipresence, it seems logical to assume that we change, not He. Our ability to perceive Him directly will be 'turned on,' so to speak.

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rameumptom,

I am thinking about how to answer you questions, but whilst I work on my reply can you answer the following which I think is linked to your questions.

If God is an exalted man with one physical set of ears who physically resides somewhere in universe (I think a-train has hinted that He isn't physically in this universe but I stick with what I think most LDS express it as ) how does He hear all the people who pray to him? How does he process all that information, how does the sound waves travel to whereever he is (If Kolob is at the center of the universe even light would take may years to get there)? How does he hear the prayers inside our heads and know the inclinations of our hearts?

Note, Kolob is not the residence of God and I know of no indication that it is at the center of the universe.

The Father's (and the Son's) body of flesh and bone is physical and corporeal just as yours and mine. It does indeed exist somewhere in space and time. However, when we get into movement of that body at the speed of light and other physics issues we are getting away from what we can know and into speculation.

Jesus turned water to wine. How? We don't have a scientific explanation. Much speculation has been offered, but that is all it is. We know that the Father can hear and see us through His spirit. His spirit, meaning His omnipresent influence and power, etc. We do not really know much more than that.

How does God speak to me? I feel His inspiration and His words come into my mind. How do I do that? I don't really know. Only in recent history have the scientific explanations of how a man controls his physical body come into existence. Talk of nerve impulses to and from the brain have come about. But for centuries, these things were not known. How does our spirit interface with our brain? We just don't know.

Perhaps one day we will have a specific explanation of how God hears our prayers and answers us. Perhaps there are spiritual conduits or perhaps we and God send out and receive signals akin to electromagnetic waves. Only the LORD knows.

Moses 1:27 says: 'And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God.'

Now if Moses, an average Joe, can be given the ability by the spirit of God to discern every last particle of the earth, then certainly God can also.

It is not the LDS assertion that the body of God, being X number of kilometers from us waits in real time for sound waves of our prayers to physically reach His ears. We know that Jesus, discerned the thoughts of men around Him (Matt. 12:25, John 2:25)

How exactly is this accomplished? We don't know. Just as children, who communicate with us their parents, know nothing about sound waves and physics, their communications come through and we communicate back. If we continue our communication, we will one day know I'm sure.

-a-train

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rameumptom,

I am thinking about how to answer you questions, but whilst I work on my reply can you answer the following which I think is linked to your questions.

If God is an exalted man with one physical set of ears who physically resides somewhere in universe (I think a-train has hinted that He isn't physically in this universe but I stick with what I think most LDS express it as ) how does He hear all the people who pray to him? How does he process all that information, how does the sound waves travel to whereever he is (If Kolob is at the center of the universe even light would take may years to get there)? How does he hear the prayers inside our heads and know the inclinations of our hearts?

The D&C tells us that the Light of Christ fills all space, is in all things, through all things, and it is through this light that we have life and existence. I believe this also to be the source of God's intimate knowledge of all things going on at any moment. You describe him as a man, which he is, but that does not limit his ability to know his Creations, because he is an exalted man.

Whether God is Trinitarian or Godhead (other substance or human-like substance) does not tell us what His capabilities are or are not. A baby is of the same substance as its parents, but does not have the same capabilities. I do not think we even approach the capabilities of God as a perfected and glorified being.

Given that God has formed us and indwells with us through the Light of Christ, I do not find it difficult for him to know what we are thinking or praying. And given He has the capacity to create worlds, being able to manage all that is contained within a world's events seems small.

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In John's Revelation we read that the glory of God will illumine the heavenly kingdom--no need for sun or moon. Likewise, no more need for Temple or church, since God will be present everywhere, obviously in some sense greater than what we experience now.

The difference between then and now is that today we experience God via his creation. In the existence to come, our experience will be direct. How that will work, I can only guess at...but it will be glorious, and very likely made possible through our exaltation (or 'glorified resurrected bodies' to use evangelical verbage).

Since God is indeed omnipresence, it seems logical to assume that we change, not He. Our ability to perceive Him directly will be 'turned on,' so to speak.

And this fits well with LDS belief, also. But I still can't wrap my mind around the idea of being in God's presence, when in the Trinitarian view (If I understand it correctly, and I don't pretend to be an expert on it) God dwells everywhere.

I can only understand it if I view it in a Godhead-like way. God indwells now with us via the Light of Christ and/or the Holy Ghost. When we are exalted, we will dwell in His higher glory - sort of the light being turned on that you mentioned.

But, would this mean that God does not really dwell in heaven, or only dwell in heaven? Or is heaven actually just where we will dwell, and God's power and glory will also be there. If God is outside of time and space, then what does that mean when it states "God is in his heaven"? And will that mean we will also be taken out of time and space to dwell with him in heaven?

You see the questions I have? For me, it is easier to understand a God with physical body that dwells in a place called heaven, whose Spirit indwells in each of us here, and where we can actually dwell with him in Celestial glory in the next life - still within time and space.

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If I may add a few words.

All is not as it seems. We grow up and receive a lot of mixed signals from the world we live in. We are spirits wrapped in a physical body for the first time. A physical body that does not crave the things of the spirit. Our spirits must exert control over our bodies, and by the grace of God, they can and they do. It is a lifelong process.

Our bodies want to trust the 5 senses. Our minds want things to "make sense."

Some how, some way, we have to reach a point in our lives where we make a conscious choice to trust evidences of truth that do not fall into the measurable spectrum of the 5 senses.

God can and He does speak to us. But His ways are not the ways of this world. His ways are different from the wisdom of the world. That does not mean His ways are not valid ways of communicating. Just different than what we're used to.

One of those "ways He is different" is in His ability to communicate with us. I don't fully understand the science of it, but I certainly know He can and He has done so with me. In ways that just leave no doubt. In ways that, if I insisted upon proof as THIS world defines proof -- I could not explain it. But I know it inside, and to be honest, I think I would really hurt His feelings if I denied it. His communications are not given frivilously!!

It goes back to the Light of Christ. Information that is passed along within this substance is received instantaneously. The Light of Christ works by physics and by natural and eternal law -- just on a level we are not acquainted with yet. 100 years ago we didn't think a man could land on the moon. But just because we don't think a thing is "possible" doesn't mean it can't happen. All it means is we lack the experience that would show us "yes, it is possible."

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith

of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535–541

1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3 We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

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