The Nature of God

[xanmad33]

His character as can be supported by the Bible: He is a man, glorified and exalted and of flesh and bone. He has a body as we do, only perfect. We are still mortal. He is immortal. Those are the physical characteristics.

Please support them

[Guest tomk]

I should also comment that we believe in the Bible, that it is the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.

The Holy Ghost is crucial to this.

[xanmad33]

Only God can reveal to us "a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes".

That is what I am saying. God HIMSELF has revealed it to me.

I don't know why He reveals Himself differently to other people. I can't get into their heads and experience the feelings and emotions they are feeling.

All I know is my own experience.

The Book of Mormon "feels good and right" to me. That is a big reason why I feel the LDS Faith is unique and alone in the correctness of its doctrines. The Book of Mormon is the KEY.

The Bible tells us our hearts are deceptive, and we cannot rely on our "feelings"

How do you think Satan will decieve many of "Gods people" as it states in the Bible? Don't you think it would be using our own untrustworthy feelings?

Im seriously asking because I imagine his DECEPTION would be so that it might appear to be "good"?

Just as you said, you do not know how he reveals himself differently to others, is it possible not everyone who claims a divine revelation in fact actually had a divine revelation?

What about all those other religions? They all claim divine revelation too

[MaidservantX]

I seek to better understand them as I have from the beginning as to why you believe in the Bible but then in some occasions do not. Some say they believe it as much as the BOM?

I can only answer by saying that I believe everything in the Bible; but my understanding of it may be different than yours. As I am sure you know, "contradictory" (supposedly) verses can be found within the Bible. They seem to say different things. But the believer learns and studies and comes to an understanding that incorporates both verses or ideas and realizes a greater understanding, and they are not contradictory at all.

Latter-day Saints have the same process. However, we have more texts and more Word to learn from. We do have the Bible and believe the teachings completely (as it would have been in its original form as given from its original authors). This is all that most Christians have. LDS then have also (but not in replacement of the Bible, simply also) the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price (which includes an account of the First Vision of Joseph Smith; as well as the Articles of Faith), and the current direction from a living prophet (perhaps best presented to us twice a year in Worldwide General Conference broadcast which is coming up this weekend; within handbooks published for the organization and leadership of the church; within letters from the First Presidency as given from time to time and read from local church pulpits; within Proclamations; and within other "messages from the First Presidency" published in church magazines and etc.). So we have more texts and sources to shed light on our total amount of knowledge available to us and to reconcile any and all information and doctrine, and so it may be, yes, that we would arrive at a different place of belief or knowledge or understanding than a believer who only needed to reconcile the Bible texts in order to inform his/ her belief.

[skalenfehl]

We know he was born

Matt 2:1-2

Luke 2:7

He grew up a man. I don't think we can dispute that he had a body, but if you really want I can find scriptures in the New testament to show he had a physical body.

He resurrected with a body (not spirt):

Matt 28:6

Mark chapter 16

Luke 24:36-40 "for the spirit hath not flesh and bones"

Christ ate with them. He was resurrected a man perfected. He had flesh and bones and ate with them. These all indicate characteristics of a God with a body and capable of the same activities as us.

[MaidservantX]

Xenli has a way with words. I think he did a marvelous job a outlining some of our beliefs.

Thank you to you, Elgama, and xan for your kind words. I always appreciate what you have to say also, Fly.

I am definitely a chick.:roseovation:

[skalenfehl]

The Bible tells us our hearts are deceptive, and we cannot rely on our "feelings"

Can you share the relevant scriptures and how you reconcile James 1:5-6 please? Thanks.

[Guest tomk]

The Bible tells us our hearts are deceptive, and we cannot rely on our "feelings"

I think a case rightly exists either way. Sometimes we can trust our feelings. At other times, we ought not to trust them. But usually the context is whether or not to give into temptation, not whether or not to believe a certain doctrine is true.

Do you remember what verse says this? I would like to read the entire chapter and get a "feel" for the context in which this warning is expressed.

How do you think Satan will decieve many of "Gods people" as it states in the Bible? Don't you think it would be using our own untrustworthy feelings?

He'll do it by appealing to our vanity and our pride, which members of the LDS Faith are not immune from.

Im seriously asking because I imagine his DECEPTION would be so that it might appear to be "good"?

Appearing to be good doctrine, and actually being good doctrine, are two different things.

Just as you said, you do not know how he reveals himself differently to others, is it possible not everyone who claims a divine revelation in fact actually had a divine revelation?

Yes.

Like I said, all I can do is share my personal experience with God. I cannot get inside the heads of others and know why they believe the way they do.

What about all those other religions? They all claim divine revelation too

I can't control what they claim to be true. At this point in my experience with God, it wouldn't matter if the entire world, every person but me, believed in a different God than I did. I know what God has revealed to me, and I stand by it.

[Elgama]

1835 Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) Joseph Smith further said,

2 Let us here observe, that [three things are necessary, in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

3 First, The idea that he actually exists.

4 Secondly , A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes

I agree with these.

We both agree on the first one, the second is of paramount importance, and indeed as Joseph stated our very salvation is dependant on.

so you really believe we can gain a sure and complete knowledge of God in mortality?

-Charley

[MaidservantX]

This quote From Joseph Smith is what i am trying to investigate, show me from the Bible

...."for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345; Journal of Discourses, 6:3)."

I haven't read the Journal of Discourses. As a Latter-day Saint it is not required of me to do so. Oddly enough it is required of me to read the Bible. But in this instance of the quote, did Joseph Smith then go on to show it from the Bible, in his talk at that time?

[xanmad33]

I know a prophet is necessary because Christ says it is necessary.

Because of the way I feel when I hear or read his words.

He is accountable to God. Yes, that would include God's word.

Because (to my sorrow) I have experienced the consequence of my evil acts. Without exception, I have always been warned against those things by a prophet of God. That is how I distinguish the difference. When I read or listen to the prophets words, I feel peace and unity. When I stray from that, I feel alone and not at peace.

"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

The Holy Spirit Bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

If your Jesus is not the same Jesus as the Bible, then couldn't we also conclude that the "spirit" being encountered is not the same "Holy spirit" as in the Bible?

[xanmad33]

Can you share the relevant scriptures and how you reconcile James 1:5-6 please? Thanks.

this excerpt says it best:

James 1:5 was written to those who already were Christians, not to those seeking to become Christians or seeking to find truth in a book. This verse has been taken out of context. The context of James is clear when James 1:1 is read: "James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad, greetings."

This is obviously written to those who are Jewish Christians scattered abroad. They already knew the truth of the Word of God. James instructs them to ask for wisdom from God.

Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge and truth. We need wisdom to know what to do in certain situations. If you receive counsel that is contrary to the Word of God, then it is obviously false. All counsel must be in agreement with the Bible. Nowhere in God's Word does it instruct us to pray about a book to see if it true. This leads us to the next point.

[Guest tomk]

"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

The Holy Spirit Bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

If your Jesus is not the same Jesus as the Bible, then couldn't we also conclude that the "spirit" being encountered is not the same "Holy spirit" as in the Bible?

It's not my job to tell you what "your" Jesus should be like, or to judge whether the Holy Ghost you feel is the same Holy Ghost I feel.

Based upon what He has revealed to me, about His character and attributes, to me He feels like the same Jesus that is revealed in the Bible and Book of Mormon.

[Elgama]

The Bible tells us our hearts are deceptive, and we cannot rely on our "feelings"

How do you think Satan will decieve many of "Gods people" as it states in the Bible? Don't you think it would be using our own untrustworthy feelings?

Im seriously asking because I imagine his DECEPTION would be so that it might appear to be "good"?

Just as you said, you do not know how he reveals himself differently to others, is it possible not everyone who claims a divine revelation in fact actually had a divine revelation?

What about all those other religions? They all claim divine revelation too

My own experience is I became a Latter Day Saint at the right time for me and possibly my family - my journey through Christianity and other religions until the point of baptism is what makes me the Latter Day Saint I am - I needed that journey had I not had it I don't know if my faith would have survived what happened to me over the last few years, it gave me resources I would not have had, had the missionaries shown up and baptised me at 8 (I started looking for baptism at 6) as a Latter Day Saint - I personally believe that the majority of people who say they have a relationship with God and are guided by Him are no matter what they call Him. He loves us all and knows what is best for us - whether a person worships God or not is not for me to determine its between them and God -

Most of us on a daily basis receive divine revelation people give it names, gut reaction, instincts, conscience, deja vu, premonition, dream, vision etc - and if we lean on God He will take us the right way for each one of us through life. I do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the way to reach the best we can in eternal progression and bring us closer to God than any other church, but sometimes a person isn't ready and need to take a different path - only God knows which is the best way for them.

-Charley

[skalenfehl]

For reference here is that book online:

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith

refer to section 6

I can only say at this point, that Joseph Smith did not live long enough to present everything that he had intended.

For reference, the discourses:

The Journal of Discourses

[Traveler]

this excerpt says it best:

James 1:5 was written to those who already were Christians, not to those seeking to become Christians or seeking to find truth in a book. This verse has been taken out of context. The context of James is clear when James 1:1 is read: "James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad, greetings."

This is obviously written to those who are Jewish Christians scattered abroad. They already knew the truth of the Word of God. James instructs them to ask for wisdom from God.

Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge and truth. We need wisdom to know what to do in certain situations. If you receive counsel that is contrary to the Word of God, then it is obviously false. All counsel must be in agreement with the Bible. Nowhere in God's Word does it instruct us to pray about a book to see if it true. This leads us to the next point.

Your view of the Bible is strange to me. Where in the Bible does it tell us there ought to be a bible and what books should be included? Using your view there should not be a Bible because the bible scriptures do not teach such a thing.

I find it odd that your understanding of scripture teaches you NOT to pray.

The Traveler

[xanmad33]

I think a case rightly exists either way. Sometimes we can trust our feelings. At other times, we ought not to trust them. But usually the context is whether or not to give into temptation, not whether or not to believe a certain doctrine is true.

Do you remember what verse says this? I would like to read the entire chapter and get a "feel" for the context in which this warning is expressed.

see my above post, I disagree Biblically

He'll do it by appealing to our vanity and our pride, which members of the LDS Faith are not immune from.

I agree these are a few ways, and I agree your church is not immune

Appearing to be good doctrine, and actually being good doctrine, are two different things.

How do you know which is which?

Yes.

Like I said, all I can do is share my personal experience with God. I cannot get inside the heads of others and know why they believe the way they do.

I can't control what they claim to be true. At this point in my experience with God, it wouldn't matter if the entire world, every person but me, believed in a different God than I did. I know what God has revealed to me, and I stand by it.

First of all, God never says to pray about truth. He says to search the Scriptures to find truth (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16).

so then if what you feel contradicts the Bible, then what you feel is wrong, is it not?

Why are you supposed to pray about the B.O M to see if it is true?

The Bible says to study God's word for truth, not pray about it.

[skalenfehl]

this excerpt says it best:

James 1:5 was written to those who already were Christians, not to those seeking to become Christians or seeking to find truth in a book. This verse has been taken out of context. The context of James is clear when James 1:1 is read: "James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad, greetings."

This is obviously written to those who are Jewish Christians scattered abroad. They already knew the truth of the Word of God. James instructs them to ask for wisdom from God.

Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge and truth. We need wisdom to know what to do in certain situations. If you receive counsel that is contrary to the Word of God, then it is obviously false. All counsel must be in agreement with the Bible. Nowhere in God's Word does it instruct us to pray about a book to see if it true. This leads us to the next point.

Thank you. My understanding starts out similar, but veers to the point where he addresses the scattered tribes of Israel, meaning the inhabitants of the earth descended from the 12 sons of Jacob (or Israel)

Asher

Benjamin

Dan

Gad

Issachar

Joseph**

Judah**

Levi

Naphtali

Reuben

Simeon

Zebulun

**refers to two tribes, from which we do have a record

Judah=Jews=Bible

Jospeh=Nephites/Lamanites=Book of Mormon

"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold..."

So James wrote a general epistle to all the tribes of Israel, not just Judah (or Jews, Christian or not). Everyone has the chance to read the Bible and ask God for wisdom.

This is how we understand this context.

[skalenfehl]

Indeed, the Bible as we have it today does not exhort us to pray about it, only to read it. I completely agree. We are supposed to pray about the BOM because Moroni exhorts us to.

The point is, either Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus and restored the church or we're a fraud, as President Hinckley stated. That is the giant leap of faith to take and pray about it.

[Flyonthewall]

Thank you to you, Elgama, and xan for your kind words. I always appreciate what you have to say also, Fly.

I am definitely a chick.:roseovation:

Sorry. When I don't know the gender of a poster, then I use the masculine in a generic way. Won't make that mistake again.

[xanmad33]

Your view of the Bible is strange to me. Where in the Bible does it tell us there ought to be a bible and what books should be included? Using your view there should not be a Bible because the bible scriptures do not teach such a thing.

I find it odd that your understanding of scripture teaches you NOT to pray.

The Traveler

Well since Jesus refers back to the Old testament several times as authoratative, and since the new testament was completed by the apostles who actually interacted with Jesus, and they fit together perfectly without contradicting one another in ANY way, and revealing the same truth's about even the Charachter of God, and the fact that Jesus promised his word could not be broken, I then think these are relevant questions.

but since we both already aknowledge the Bible is the Word of God, even Joseph Smith claims his revelations can be reconciled with the Bible, claims made after the current Bible was already in existance, then I believe it's becomes fair to ask the question I have.

Secondly please do not put words in my mouth. I never said prayer is not important. Or that scripture teaches me NOT to pray, please go back to read EXACTLY in context what I said about prayer.

[skalenfehl]

I've pretty much read everything in the "chapter 4" page. Is there any other reference that you have/use to define the nature of God? I really enjoyed that page.

[Elgama]

so then if what you feel contradicts the Bible, then what you feel is wrong, is it not?

Why are you supposed to pray about the B.O M to see if it is true?

The Bible says to study God's word for truth, not pray about it.

OK here is another topic for discussion what to you is the Word of God - to me the Word of God is Jesus Christ because he is the one who speaks to us on behalf of the Godhead - the Holy Ghost is our comforter.

I base mine on the fact the Word was with God from the beginning but as far as we are aware many generations past before the Bible was written after creation.

-Charley

[xanmad33]

Thank you. My understanding starts out similar, but veers to the point where he addresses the scattered tribes of Israel, meaning the inhabitants of the earth descended from the 12 sons of Jacob (or Israel)

Asher

Benjamin

Dan

Gad

Issachar

Joseph**

Judah**

Levi

Naphtali

Reuben

Simeon

Zebulun

**refers to two tribes, from which we do have a record

Judah=Jews=Bible

Jospeh=Nephites/Lamanites=Book of Mormon

"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold..."

So James wrote a general epistle to all the tribes of Israel, not just Judah (or Jews, Christian or not). Everyone has the chance to read the Bible and ask God for wisdom.

This is how we understand this context.

Where is your proof of Joseph=Nephites/laminites?

[Guest tomk]

see my above post, I disagree Biblically

That is your perogative.

I agree these are a few ways, and I agree your church is not immune

Yep.

How do you know which is which?

By the witness of the Spirit of the Lord.

First of all, God never says to pray about truth. He says to search the Scriptures to find truth (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16).

He says to do both. To both read and pray.

so then if what you feel contradicts the Bible, then what you feel is wrong, is it not?

I'm not sure how you have shown such is the case. You have stated your beliefs, which are different from mine. I am not here to show you that you are wrong, only to state what I believe to be true based upon what God has revealed to me.

Why are you supposed to pray about the B.O M to see if it is true?

Because of what it says in Moroni 10:3-5:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

These verses teach us not only how to receive a witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon, but of all truth.

I also want to note that I like the fact that other religions encourage people to believe in God. This is a good thing. Believing that God exists, at all, is a good first step!! And it is much better than not believing that He exists at all.

The Bible says to study God's word for truth, not pray about it.

I believe we are to do both. We are to both study and pray about the doctrines we encounter.