Questions for Mormons

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, the title is a cheap attention-getter. It is the most common title for a bunch of questions about horses in ancient North America, alleged "fortune seeking" by Joseph Smith, and an assortment of other detail questions meant to undermine the faith of LDS.

What I list before are not really so much questions FOR Mormons, but rather, the thoughts that go through the mind of evangelicals who take your faith and their own seriously. And, perhaps, that's even too grand. They are my thoughts, my inquiries.

1. Why am I so sure about Jesus, about the Apostle Paul, and about the gospel writers, but so uncertain about Joseph Smith?

2. Could the church have really been apostate for 1800 years?

3. Could the church have gotten so many doctrines so wrong for so long?

4. Does a church that, imho, suffers some of the same personality flaws as my own, and many other churches, really stand out as the one that is restored?

5. Can the Bible really be reconciled with polytheism?

6. Are we really eternal essences?

7. I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

8. Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

10. Did Jesus really mean for a single, highly structured and hierarchical church organization to dispense spiritual authority (Catholics have no issues with this one)?

More and more, I tire of the "Questions for Mormons" threads that are full of pot shots, innuendo, and the type of questions that seem more appropriate for political negative advertising then respectful faith dialogue. I hope these off-the-cuff concerns prove more thoughtful and useful.

[skalenfehl]

I can only imagine the giant leap of faith required to defy 1800 years of traditional beliefs.

[Andrew777]

There's a great book called "Are Mormons Christians?" by Stephen E. Robinson that can answer a lot of the questions you posted, probably better then anyone here could.

[prisonchaplain]

I can only imagine the giant leap of faith required to defy 1800 years of traditional beliefs.

And perhaps this is a good part of why #1 is first. The Church has sustained 2000 years of persecution, theological battles, poverty, wealth, war and peace. The teachings of the NT have thrived in all environments. Joseph Smith's visions and calling have proven prosperious, but remain unaccepted by most of the Christian world. Of course, #s do not prove accuracy or truth, but history does help explain why most Christians find it easier to accept the ancient truths of the Bible than the comparatively recent works of Joseph Smith.

[skalenfehl]

Perhaps this is also why the Jews had such difficulty accepting Christ as their messiah after about 4,000 years of testimony from the prophets before them. Their own traditional beliefs caused them to miss the very messiah they longed for. Food for thought.

[prisonchaplain]

Skalenfehl makes a strong point. However, Joseph Smith never claimed to be a Messiah, nor the 2nd coming. Jews were indeed looking for the Savior. Christians had no expectation of a latter day prophet who would come to declare the Church in an 1800 year rut of apostasy. Jesus may not have been what the Jews expected of their Savior, but his coming well was announced in detail.

In some ways, Joseph Smith, if a true prophet, is more in the line of Moses, imho.

[Andrew777]

There are parts of the bible that are used to show a prediction of a latter day prophet and that early Christians believed an apostasy would come and a restoration would be needed. It is possible some Christians including the apostles saw the apostasy on it's way.

[prisonchaplain]

While I'm somewhat aware of those sections, they do not come together to create the type of expectation that was widespread amongst the Hebrews at the time of Jesus. Nevertheless, your point combines with Skalenfehl's to keep my #1 question in the op an interesting one.

[Elgama]

I love your questions - I hope you don't mind if I do something and do my Questions for Christians unsure whether or not to make it a seperate thread, or here -they are questions that went through my mind as I was looking for my baptism - I was tempted by many religions, felt a strong call to dedicate my life to Christ so couldn't abandon Christianity and was getting seriously confused, went through my journal and I attended 31 different forms of Christianity and at one point was trying to attend 6 at once, but I have been dying to actually ask them since all the Questions for Mormons threads:) but if I introduce them in those Questions for Mormons threads people feel got at I guess this is a better idea - I gonna do a new thread.

Thanks PC its why I said what I did about you and DrT you are rare Christians, amazing human beings for Christians to dialogue with Mormons without accusations is very difficult because of the very obvious one of us has to be right assumptions. Also because accusations about the God you worship can come in thats when I struggle to be civil because whilst I know He doesn't need my protection, but when you Love someone a desire to protect happens.

-Charley

[Elgama]

This is how I see things, some of these answers are not meant to be antagonistic but reflect my own disillusionment with Christianity as it stood and are why I left it behind:

1. Why am I so sure about Jesus, about the Apostle Paul, and about the gospel writers, but so uncertain about Joseph Smith?

-its much easier to sustain a prophet from many years ago than one from 200 years ago or one alive today, we know too much about them with Paul all you really have is his writings - if all we had was the Standard Works from Joseph Smith the leap would be easier. You have seen all the posts were people struggle to sustain the men on a local level as men of God - the problem is you see them everyday and their faults, It is much much easier for me 1000s of miles away to sustain President Monson because I don't know him than for a member of his family who he maybe was tired and shouted at. I have very good online friend who left the church when she saw President Hinckley backstage at something snapping at them - she doesn't agree with me that a man who at the time was in his 80s travelling like he does should be expected to get snappy at times.

2. Could the church have really been apostate for 1800 years?

Yes I personally believe it was part of Gods Plan - the basic Gospel Message was taken round the world and more people heard of Christ because it was taken up by the Roman Empire, that could not have happened without the apostasy. Also if the apostasy didn't happen aren't you Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/St Thomas Christian etc?, In life many things start out good, suffer trials or darkness then out of that comes something even better -

3. Could the church have gotten so many doctrines so wrong for so long?

Yes they obviously did, there is not one baptism which was my biggie because I was looking for baptism by immersion, there is also a huge number of Christian denominations (not all) that place a block between the membership and God - they get in the way of that strong relationship developing. Because the men at the top in the Roman Catholic church prevented the membership from even understanding the Bible for a long time (keeping it in Latin) - that left room for men to do what they wanted.

4. Does a church that, imho, suffers some of the same personality flaws as my own, and many other churches, really stand out as the one that is restored?

For me yes because it makes that claim its worth praying about and investigating, churches will always have personality flaws even true ones the Bible shows that, none of the prophets were perfect - Jonah was bonkers but he was still called. I love Peter but he did chop of the soldiers ear, deny Christ 3 times, etc

5. Can the Bible really be reconciled with polytheism?

One thing the thread with Xanmad has shown me is I am a lot more monotheist than I thought I was lol ultimately I don't think it matters the Godhead is what it is and how we interpret scriptures doesn't matter we can't change God by thinking differently, there are scriptures that mention gods in the plural and i don't understand it a lot but I have read that whilst used in the singular Elohim is actually plural which fits with my own belief that God is both

6. Are we really eternal essences?

yes but no good reason for believing except I always felt it

7. I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

This is where you need to start with Faith in the Gospel - do I trust the current prophet if so then I can be sure there is a good reason for it. The Jews obeyed Kosher because God said so and science is starting to bear it out as a wise health code especially in the days before fridges and disinfectant

8. Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

I personally found a closed canon more difficult to accept I do not believe at any point that God would leave us alone in 2008 with so many dilemmas the Bible couldn't have covered.

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

Thanks for saying sacred not secret its beautiful to see the thought in your questions.

Yes I believe so but I was unsure until I actually went through the Temple now I have no doubt that the New and Old Testament had similar temple ceremonies before that I knew my Bible now I understand it beyond anything I could have dreamed and it became deeper and more sacred. It obviously was sacred because nowhere does it say this is the endowment ceremony but like members today will teach things they learned in there without revealing the source its in the Bible.

10. Did Jesus really mean for a single, highly structured and hierarchical church organization to dispense spiritual authority (Catholics have no issues with this one)?

Yes its how the head and body work so smoothly - I see it at work in my church and I love it. For me the organisation has the Christ that lead His apostles, cared for Zaccheus, blessed the children stamped all over it

-Charley

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Okay, the title is a cheap attention-getter. It is the most common title for a bunch of questions about horses in ancient North America, alleged "fortune seeking" by Joseph Smith, and an assortment of other detail questions meant to undermine the faith of LDS.

What I list before are not really so much questions FOR Mormons, but rather, the thoughts that go through the mind of evangelicals who take your faith and their own seriously. And, perhaps, that's even too grand. They are my thoughts, my inquiries.

Hey PC! I like your introduction. Open-minded. Liberal. Suggestive of desire for dialogue rather than for debate. I'll try to take these one at a time like Elgama did.

1. Why am I so sure about Jesus, about the Apostle Paul, and about the gospel writers, but so uncertain about Joseph Smith?

In addition to Elgama's answer, I'll add in that tradition is a big part. Most of "christiandom" has been raised to believe that the heavens are shut and there is no more revelation, and not even any NEED for revelation. The balance has shifted in recent years, in large part due to Joseph Smith (though few will admit it), and now a great many christians are shifting towards "modern prophets", although I tend to call most of the evangelical prophets "prophets for profit". But that's another discussion altogether.

2. Could the church have really been apostate for 1800 years?

The Jewish faith and tradition was true for several thousand years. When Christ came, the Law of Moses was fulfilled and anyone who held on to that old truth became apostate, and thus we see that Jews have been apostate for 2000 years. But somehow that's not so hard to believe? The old testament also shows us that ancient Israel broke with their traditions and became apostate several times, and sometimes for several hundred years in a row. Of course none of this affects modern christians today, which might be why it's easier to believe than a christian apostasy.

3. Could the church have gotten so many doctrines so wrong for so long?

By "church" I assume you mean the Roman Catholic church.

Non-catholics, especially members of restorationist churches, tend to focus a lot on everything that the Catholic church got wrong, but we fail to see/understand/accept all the things that it got right as well. A comparison of early accepted apocryphal church writings with other contemporary writings of the time, especially gnostic texts, can show you how great of a division in doctrine there was very early on, even in the first century AD. Without direct revelation from God in these circumstances, it's easy to see how things could start to get sidetracked.

4. Does a church that, imho, suffers some of the same personality flaws as my own, and many other churches, really stand out as the one that is restored?

I think Elgama hit the nail on the head here. Though I wouldn't say Jonah was "bonkers" so much as he was "scared ****less". Personally I think that's a good example of the struggle any prophet must go through internally. Speaking for God is not an easy job.

5. Can the Bible really be reconciled with polytheism?

Yes. There are many scriptural references, even in the very beginning in Genesis, that refer to more than one god. My personal favorite is in Psalm 82 verse 6: Psalms 82

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Can't get much plainer than that.

6. Are we really eternal essences?

Jeremiah Chapter 1 verse 5

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

While this verse can mean something to most christians, if you have an understanding of our eternal heritage and the principle of fore-ordination, it becomes infinitely more clear and more meaningful.

7. I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

Again Elgama touched on this one pretty well. When you look at the news with companies putting all sorts of addictive and unhealthy ingredients into their products, it's no wonder that we're commanded to be careful what we eat. While the world's answer to these mounting concerns is the new "organic" craze, the Mormon answer came 100 years before the problem even existed in the form of the "Word of Wisdom".

8. Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

Let me ask you a question. If we assume that the scriptural canon is closed, when was it closed and who closed it?

And let me be bold with a suggestion. At the end of the Old Testament is a single statement "The End of the Prophets". Let me suggest that this statement is NOT scripture. How does that change things?

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

Most of the inner ceremonies in the Old Testament temples are not written in the Old testament and nobody but the Masons claim to have any clue what those ceremonies and rituals were, but we know they existed through Jewish tradition and ancient (non-canon) Jewish writings about them. Several times in Jesus' ministry he would perform a healing or a miracle, but he would ask those involved to not speak of it to anyone. Suppose this was because the ordinance he used to perform these miracles was something sacred?

10. Did Jesus really mean for a single, highly structured and hierarchical church organization to dispense spiritual authority (Catholics have no issues with this one)?

Catholics and Mormons agree that Christ left leadership of the institution known as the church in the hands of Peter. Papal decrees on doctrine will sometimes come "from the seat of Peter" (except in Latin), as the Pope is believed to have inherited that responsibility. Whether or not this is really what Christ meant to do is entirely up to speculation, since we have no record of his personal thoughts and motivations. But the archeological and scriptural evidence that such an organization existed even from the moment of Christ's death suggests that it was the case that Christ intended such an organization to exist.

Alternatively, if we (appropriately) think of Christianity as a branch of Judaism, Judaism had a highly structured and hierarchal organization as set forth in the Law of Moses in the book of Leviticus. It makes sense that the same god who instituted that organization would continue with a similar organization after that law was fulfilled.

More and more, I tire of the "Questions for Mormons" threads that are full of pot shots, innuendo, and the type of questions that seem more appropriate for political negative advertising then respectful faith dialogue. I hope these off-the-cuff concerns prove more thoughtful and useful.

Ditto

[WANDERER]

1. Why am I so sure about Jesus, about the Apostle Paul, and about the gospel writers, but so uncertain about Joseph Smith?

I'm not essentially sure. I guess cultural tradition plays a big part. Joseph Smith is an unknown quantity. I respect him as a historical figure in religion and I believe he did have revelations. The prophet tag is a big one...still learning.

2. Could the church have really been apostate for 1800 years?

Oh yes. Why have a protestant reformation if that wasn't the case. Looking into some of the debates on the start of the Protestant faith and how the Catholics interpret things is interesting. It does seem to have evolved over time.

3. Could the church have gotten so many doctrines so wrong for so long?

Would God totally abandon the Christian church for 1800 years? I don't believe so. Some things do appear to have gone a little astray.

4. Does a church that, imho, suffers some of the same personality flaws as my own, and many other churches, really stand out as the one that is restored?

In some ways yes and in some ways no. There are certainly things that have been restored. Does it stand out on a world level as a restored church...this is open to different perspectives.

5. Can the Bible really be reconciled with polytheism?

This is a mystery. Yes and no.

6. Are we really eternal essences?

I can believe this.

7. I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

Or tea? Hey I was taught not to buy raffle tickets or even guess the number of jelly beans in a jar...let alone door raffles. This has been considered odd by many other people. Coffee I can do without perhaps: it's just another beverage. 'Happy Holidays' puts the coffee abstinence into perspective...I find that harder to grasp. Coffee in the scheme of things isn't that drastic. Though I still drink it LOL.

8. Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

I love the open canon. There is something wrong with no further interaction.

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

Does it matter? Not really. I think I will have to think more about this...there is a lot to be said for transparency and open honesty about things. I understand why it is not discussed. I think I would like to know more about other sacred observances that are also not discussed within other faiths. I'm just not that comfortable with it. The idea is new. My apologies for any unintentional offense in what I have said.

10. Did Jesus really mean for a single, highly structured and hierarchical church organization to dispense spiritual authority (Catholics have no issues with this one)?

In essence all churches do. All churches have a shepherd (whatever the title used)

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I thought I would add a couple extra thoughts on temple ordinances, since that's something that hits home to me as well. I've not been through the temple myself, and I have a great deal of anxiety in that regard because of the lack of discussion about it. My own research has lead me to a few conclusions I'd like to share.

First of all, there is a LOT more about temple ordinances that can be talked about openly. The commandments and covenants to keep certain things hidden only directly apply to some small portions of the ceremonies. However, most people don't know what is or is not appropriate to share, so they just remain silent rather than risk saying too much.

I've found a website, not affiliated with the church, where a church member goes to great lengths to define that line, and then explain everything he can without crossing it. I haven't looked at the site completely myself because I'm waiting for some friends who have been through the temple to confirm that it is an appropriate explanation. Once that's confirmed I'll be more than happy to share it with you.

I've been directed to several books, most of the titles I can't remember, that go into great detail about the what and the why of temple ordinances. Personally I think that in most cases this is a cop out from people who are scared to talk about it themselves, but the books are still good references. I of course haven't read any, my schedule is a bit full to allow me time for in depth reading, but you might look them up and check them out yourself. I'm sure most mormons on this site can tell you the titles to look for.

[Canuck Mormon]

You need to be VERY careful when discussing the Temple here. Please read the rules and make sure to stay within them please.

[Misshalfway]

1. Why am I so sure about Jesus, about the Apostle Paul, and about the gospel writers, but so uncertain about Joseph Smith?

This is a mystery to me. It seems so logical to me that God calls prophets and gives them revelation to lead the people of their day. The pattern starts with Adam. Noah, Moses, etc. etc. Each had different circumstances... but each were directed by God to give information and direction to the people. Why would he stop calling prophets? Amos 3:7

2. Could the church have really been apostate for 1800 years?

I believe that history shows this to be obvious. The church became so political. The early Christains were killed along with the twelve. Yes, the bible writings were preserved. I have to believe that God had a hand in that. I don't believe that God abandoned the people. It is clear that some individuals, martin luther and others, were receiving guidance from God that the church needed reformation or redress.

3. Could the church have gotten so many doctrines so wrong for so long?

This doesn't surprise me in the least. The Bible itself was kept from the people. Why? So evil men could control them. I can't know all the reasons. I do know there was confusion. Paul and his companions were running around trying to get the churches to conform. If there wasn't problems with the doctrine, the protestant movements wouldn't have happened. I think they show that mormons are not the only ones to assert that there were discrepancies in doctrines and practices. And today, it impossible to find clear and consistent doctrines in the Christian world... and throughout the world itself.

4. Does a church that, imho, suffers some of the same personality flaws as my own, and many other churches, really stand out as the one that is restored?

It stands out, not because it is absolutely flawlessly perfect. It stands out because it has important components that show Jesus himself is at the helm. Priesthood authority, prophets and modern revelation, faith, rep, bap, g of the H.G. It stands out because men don't have to rely on the words of men to know of its truthfulness. It stands out because leaders are neither self appointed, or elected. Neither are they paid. Jesus leads the church not man.

5. Can the Bible really be reconciled with polytheism?

I think that God is more like us than not like us. It just doesn't make sense that He wouldn't be to me. I think the Bible can be seen either way. It seems that it is interpreted in so many different ways. Joseph's Smith vision is a tie-breaker for me. It cuts thru the confusion and lays the argument to rest.

6. Are we really eternal essences?

I can't see it any other way. I ditto the Jeremiah 1:5. And beyond that, it feels like my spirit already knows this is true.

7. I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

First of all, coffee and tea can be addictive -- not to mention other health concerns. I have been asked many times in the Dr.'s office if I drink coffee. We are instructed to avoid any substance that would restrict agency. And also, I think you need to look beyond the coffee itself. There is a principle of discipline being taught here. Can the saints discipline themselves to this kind of commandment when the rest of the world doesn't see the need? It is the same as an olympic athelete performing acts of training that an otherwise everyday athelete wouldn't do..... or a monk.... or a priest .... or Ghandi. All chose discipline in their lives. I am not convinced this direction is about the coffee alone. The key is the promises the Lord gives to those who follow. Health and knowledge -- even hidden treasures of knowledge.

8. Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

The Book of Mormon says it best.

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? ....

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?

My concern is why some put such limits on God.

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

Why wouldn't there be room? If God wants a temple..... then he wants a temple. He has clearly done it before. Temples are absolutely biblical.

And for anyone who wants to talk temple detail, I implore you to tread carefully. You speak of things so very sacred and special.

10. Did Jesus really mean for a single, highly structured and hierarchical church organization to dispense spiritual authority (Catholics have no issues with this one)?

I believe the Heavenly Father is a God of order. A house divided against itself cannot stand. If God organized this world with all of its laws, why wouldn't the way back to him be organized with laws and ordinances and clarity and surety?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I think most of it has been said already but I'd like to say a little.

1. Why am I so sure about Jesus, about the Apostle Paul, and about the gospel writers, but so uncertain about Joseph Smith?

It's so much easier to believe in someone from the past and someone who has 'always been there' with a name we have heard since babyhood than it is to accept someone with such an ordinary sounding name as Joseph Smith. I've noticed that when people try to be more derogatory towards him they call him "Joe Smith" as if making a more ordinary sounding name makes him even less likely to be a prophet of God. The same sort of thing used to happen in Biblical times though when people saw those they knew and had grown up with suddenly preaching - it even happened to Jesus himself with people saying how can this carpenter's son from Nazareth be anyone worth listening to?

2. Could the church have really been apostate for 1800 years?

The evidence is there in history - why else the reformation? That was man's attempt to restore back to what should have been, but men couldn't do it alone.

3. Could the church have gotten so many doctrines so wrong for so long?

The fact that there are differences between different denominations shows that 'the church' has got many things wrong.

4. Does a church that, imho, suffers some of the same personality flaws as my own, and many other churches, really stand out as the one that is restored?

Yes, the flaws are in the people not in the doctrine. People are fallible unfortunately. This was my first stumbling block I think.

5. Can the Bible really be reconciled with polytheism?

Yes, the Bible refers to more than one member of the Godhead and also to false gods.

6. Are we really eternal essences?

This is a deep one because we don't know much about eternity. I think it's difficult for us to grasp with our finite minds, but God certainly tells us that he knew us before we were born and Jesus didn't flinch at the idea.

7. I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

The Word of Wisdom is far more than just as ban on certain consumables. There are recommendations about sleep patterns too. Much of what is in there has already been scientifically proven - just because we don't know why coffee is bad for us doesn't mean that Heavenly Father doesn't know. He knows far more than we do about everything. I believe we will learn more about the problems with coffee one day.

8. Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

I find the idea of a closed canon harder to accept. The Jews found it hard to accept that there should be anything to follow the Law of Moses. They thought they had all they needed.

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

It isn't actually kept from anyone. People keep themselves from it. The temple is for everyone. The aim of the church is to direct people to the temple. However, the place is so sacred and holy that it is not treated lightly or flippantly so people are expected to be worthy before entering. If you joined the church and lived worthily then you too would be welcome.

10. Did Jesus really mean for a single, highly structured and hierarchical church organization to dispense spiritual authority (Catholics have no issues with this one)?

Yes, this is how Jesus organised things whilst he was here. He called his 12 disciples to be the ones who went with him - others who converted stayed amongst their own groups. Paul travelled to the different churches and wrote letters of encouragement to them. Although we do have a hierarchy in the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve etc when you come down to a local level people change callings on a regular basis. Someone who is a Stake President could be released and be called as a Bishop or a Ward Mission Leader. It's not like a promotional structure sort of level.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

First of all, there is a LOT more about temple ordinances that can be talked about openly. The commandments and covenants to keep certain things hidden only directly apply to some small portions of the ceremonies. However, most people don't know what is or is not appropriate to share, so they just remain silent rather than risk saying too much.

You need to be VERY careful when discussing the Temple here. Please read the rules and make sure to stay within them please.

Case in point.

I know the rules and I also know where the vast majority of mormons stand in regards to talking about the temple. I don't believe any self-respecting mormon could find any fault with my previous post and I certainly believe that I stay far away from crossing any lines, real or imaginary, in regards to appropriateness. Quite honestly I'm offended that anyone thinks my statement deserved a rebuttal.

Certainly sharing details of some sacred ordinances outside of the temple is inappropriate. But to avoid or even discourage ANY sort of dialogue on the subject because of fear or misunderstanding is even more so. I don't mean to start an argument about it, this is just something very personal and important to me, and it's personally hurtful that I can't even tell a friend where to look for appropriate answers to his questions without censure.

[Misshalfway]

Case in point.

I know the rules and I also know where the vast majority of mormons stand in regards to talking about the temple. I don't believe any self-respecting mormon could find any fault with my previous post and I certainly believe that I stay far away from crossing any lines, real or imaginary, in regards to appropriateness. Quite honestly I'm offended that anyone thinks my statement deserved a rebuttal.

Certainly sharing details of some sacred ordinances outside of the temple is inappropriate. But to avoid or even discourage ANY sort of dialogue on the subject because of fear or misunderstanding is even more so. I don't mean to start an argument about it, this is just something very personal and important to me, and it's personally hurtful that I can't even tell a friend where to look for appropriate answers to his questions without censure.

I can feel you have good intensions. Thank you for caution. I appreciate that.

[Canuck Mormon]

Case in point.

I know the rules and I also know where the vast majority of mormons stand in regards to talking about the temple. I don't believe any self-respecting mormon could find any fault with my previous post and I certainly believe that I stay far away from crossing any lines, real or imaginary, in regards to appropriateness. Quite honestly I'm offended that anyone thinks my statement deserved a rebuttal.

Certainly sharing details of some sacred ordinances outside of the temple is inappropriate. But to avoid or even discourage ANY sort of dialogue on the subject because of fear or misunderstanding is even more so. I don't mean to start an argument about it, this is just something very personal and important to me, and it's personally hurtful that I can't even tell a friend where to look for appropriate answers to his questions without censure.

I was not trying to censure you, I was just making sure you understood the rules, that's all. You can discuss what you want, as long as it is within the rules. After reading your response, I have no doubt that you will.

[Misshalfway]

8. Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

Sorry. Gotta add one more thought onto this guy.....

Why would God send angels, dreams, and visions, if they weren't sent to deliver his word?

[Hemidakota]

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

Most of the inner ceremonies in the Old Testament temples are not written in the Old testament and nobody but the Masons claim to have any clue what those ceremonies and rituals were, but we know they existed through Jewish tradition and ancient (non-canon) Jewish writings about them. Several times in Jesus' ministry he would perform a healing or a miracle, but he would ask those involved to not speak of it to anyone. Suppose this was because the ordinance he used to perform these miracles was something sacred?

There are known Egyptians ceremonial rights have same similarities as seen in our temple. This was point out by Professor Nibley.

[DapperDan]

9. Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

So this is a really long string of fair questions. And I really like the answers/thoughts presented. I'd like to add my insight here as well, only one question at a time (as work permits)

#9

Of course there is room. Jesus himself explains this principle to his own apostles while he was with them (quoted from the book of Matthew Chapter 13)

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

It is clear that the Lord definitely enables sacred information not openly available to all. Only to those searching with an open and willing heart. (which is still free to all). So the answer is positively yes.

[Moksha]

7. I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

But would this not have been done in anticipation of the $5 cup at Starbucks or else in sympathy of the lady who was scalded at McDonalds and was able to sue for millions?

Besides, think of those beatnik poets and their guitars in coffee houses at the time when Ezra Taft Benson was helping to uncover communist plots involving civil rights, coffee beans and rock n' roll. 'Nuff said.

[a-train]

These questions PC, are not simply those of non-LDS Christians, but Mormons themselves.

Why am I so sure about Jesus, about the Apostle Paul, and about the gospel writers, but so uncertain about Joseph Smith?

Because doubt has always been most acutely expressed on God's current progress. Enoch is rejected by many who believe they have a better understanding of Adam. Noah is rejected by masses who believe they better understand Enoch. Abraham is rejected by even his own family who perceive themselves more true to Noah. Virtually every prophet of Israel was rejected and then latter praised. Jesus was most vividly rejected as a heretic by those professing the religion of the ancient prophets. Today, as in every age, Satan cares not whether we believe in Paul's testimony, so long as we reject the servants sent out by the LORD directly to us.

Could the church have really been apostate for 1800 years?

I think even the Mormons possess only a small inclination of the meaning of 'The Great Apostasy'. I personally think there was no greater wickedness in those days than in our time. The key to understanding this is here: the withdrawl of the administration of the priesthood was not an act of man, but an act of God.

Could the church have gotten so many doctrines so wrong for so long?

If you look at the positions taken by the LDS Church as revealed by Joseph Smith, almost all of it is held in common by some Christian sect somewhere. I don't think therefore that Christendom has been universally wrong, but sectioned on the basis of various answers.

Does a church that, imho, suffers some of the same personality flaws as my own, and many other churches, really stand out as the one that is restored?

Many Mormons falsely assume a certain infalability in the LDS Church. It is imagined for instance that an unworthy individual would be stopped at the door of the temple by a worker with a revelation concerning the matter and prevented from falsely entering therein. Presumptions such as this caused men to ask the same question about the Messiah when He came and did not seem to stand out as the unquestionable only true and living God.

Can the Bible really be reconciled with polytheism?

Not only that, but what is polytheism and is Mormon theology really polytheistic? For that matter, what about trinitarianism?

Are we really eternal essences?

I can remember thinking at a young age: 'I am lucky, I am lucky that I am among those fortunate enough to exist. But then again, I guess I wouldn't be concerned about not existing if I didn't do so.'

Here is another question though: 'Does God really create beings out of nothing who enter into endless misery and fail to fulfill the purpose of their ex nihilo creation? And, if they do fail in such manner, why is it that they are not annihiliated rather than made to suffer endlessly?'

I can understand the ban on drinking, smoking, gambling...but coffee?

What if we get to the judgment bar and discover that the mandate of the Word of Wisdom did not come by revelation and it was always 'not by commandment or constraint'?

Modern prophecy is not hard to accept. Christians often claim to have seen angels, dreams, and visions. But an open canon?

Would I have been among the Jews who rejected the Gospels as canonical, or among the Christians who believed?

Is there room in the New Testament writings for an element of faith practice that is so sacred it is kept from outsiders (Temple rituals)?

Does Mormonism have an element of faith practice so sacred that it is kept from outsiders? (I am not asking you, PC, this question. It is a legitimate question aimed at understanding the temple that Mormons should be asking themselves.)

Did Jesus really mean for a single, highly structured and hierarchical church organization to dispense spiritual authority (Catholics have no issues with this one)?

And, is that the organization we see in the Book of Mormon?

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

Skalenfehl makes a strong point. However, Joseph Smith never claimed to be a Messiah, nor the 2nd coming. Jews were indeed looking for the Savior. Christians had no expectation of a latter day prophet who would come to declare the Church in an 1800 year rut of apostasy. Jesus may not have been what the Jews expected of their Savior, but his coming well was announced in detail.

In some ways, Joseph Smith, if a true prophet, is more in the line of Moses, imho.

A very good point as well. I can refine the analogy a little. Consider then who "prepared the way" for Jesus Christ and His gospel. How many people truly believed John the Baptist and became baptized? He ended up a martyr.

How many people believed Joseph Smith with his declaration of the restored gospel? He proclaimed that Christ's coming was at hand and is even at the door. How many people truly believed Joseph Smith and were baptized? What was Joseph Smith's ultimate fate?

There have been some very thoughtful replies. I can understand why it can be difficult to take such a leap of faith and defy 2,000 years of tradition. I only wish you could feel what I feel and know "how" I know. But this is a step and a journey that one must take for himself. One cannot take that leap for someone else. Great is that leap of faith and great is the reward.