Questions for Christians

[Elgama]

OK I am going to borrow PrisonChaplain's idea - I have never thought of doing it before. I was brought up within Christianity (Anglican/Presbyterian background), but at 6 saw a picture of Jesus being baptised by John the Baptist and from then on I went in search of my baptism, it took 10 years and I went through a lot of Christian Groups (31 in total), I grew increasingly disillusioned at the lack of answers and the amount of confusion. At 15 I was torn I knew I wanted to enter into the service of my God, but I no longer wanted to be Christian, I was torn between just becoming a Nun, starting my own church, or becoming a Buddhist non of the options felt quite right - then I met the missionaries and got baptised 3 weeks later (would have been less but I had to attend a sacrament meeting and have an interview first lol) - I knew I was finally on my way home.

THE QUESTIONS - I know you will have answers like I do to PC's Questions for Mormons but none felt right to me:

1) Why does God no longer use prophets, will He ever use prophets?

2) Why are there so many different doctrines on baptism when Jesus taught it was essential and felt it was so important He set an example? - where is the ONE baptism spoken of in the bible?

3) Who gave you the authority to baptise? How did you know it came from Christ?

4) How do you know the Bible is the Word of the God?

5) What happens to those who are not baptised - because of age or not in a position to hear?

6) Why did God leave Adam and Eve with Satan when he knew they had no concept of Good and Evil?

7) Describe God, Father, Jesus and Holy Ghost what do each of them mean to you what is their function?

8) Why can women now speak in church and don't have to cover their heads (the latter is quite recent even as a child I know my elderly female relatives would not go to church without a hat)?

9) Who decided the Bible contents what was their authority? Why were books now found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and shown to be old left out? (at least Roman Catholics have a lot of them in their book to be read even if they are not seen as canon)

10) How free are your prayers? What form do they take?

11) If the God others worship isn't yours why doesn't yours answer my prayers, if He doesn't why should I believe in someone who has shown know care for my welfare over the God that has been in my life since I was a child and earned my trust and love over and over again?

12) What is the Word of God? to me the Bible and my heart say its Jesus ?

-Charley

[ztodd]

I'd be interested in knowing the answer to #4 from those who don't believe that we can trust our feelings.

[Abraham]

Here is one more for you list.

A) How do many Christian religions deny the resurrection of Christ the son of God? (You'd be shocked how many preach this.)

B) I'd like to go into the doctrine of the Trinity but I only have 100 pages here so I will refrain. Hee hee

Abraham

[prisonchaplain]

Here is one more for you list.

A) How do many Christian religions deny the resurrection of Christ the son of God? (You'd be shocked how many preach this.)

B) I'd like to go into the doctrine of the Trinity but I only have 100 pages here so I will refrain. Hee hee

Abraham

I promise to reply to the OP...but only have time for a drive-by, right now. Can you name names? I'm assuming you are referring to liberal churches that interpret the Bible as literature and mostly allegorically. Quite frankly, denying the resurrection is probably more heretical than denying the Trinity (from my perspective, anyway). Before I say more, I want to know who is saying this, so I understand where they are coming from.

P.S. Elgama--you might want to retitle the OP "Questions for Protestants or Evangelicals" etc., since you would consider yourself a Christian too. :-)

[Elgama]

I promise to reply to the OP...but only have time for a drive-by, right now. Can you name names? I'm assuming you are referring to liberal churches that interpret the Bible as literature and mostly allegorically. Quite frankly, denying the resurrection is probably more heretical than denying the Trinity (from my perspective, anyway). Before I say more, I want to know who is saying this, so I understand where they are coming from.

P.S. Elgama--you might want to retitle the OP "Questions for Protestants or Evangelicals" etc., since you would consider yourself a Christian too. :-)

lol actually I know I am supposed to but I don't think of myself as anything other than a Latter Day Saint :) - I actually haven't called myself Christian in about 18 years when i was about 12 or 13 I started to say I was religious instead. I guess thats when my struggle began with Christianity and my few questions became many and very important - I don't know if it was just 4 churches in a week had refused to baptise me because I was too young.

-Charley

[Andrew777]

Denying the resurrection is way more heretical then believing in the trinity for sure! Think it would be certain Anglicans he's thinking about, maybe the United Church, I really can't think of a lot of them that do.

#13) Why do many Christians believe that there denomination is the only one that will save them from an eternal hell, when it's said in scriptures that there are many rooms in the Father's mansion?

#14) How is the belief that the majority of the Earth's population is going to suffer in an eternal hell reconciled with a belief in a loving God?

#15) Who is it Jesus prays too through out the Gospel when he prays to his Father if he is God himself?

#16) Why does Jesus teach us to also pray to the Father and not to him?

#17) Why are we told by many of the apostles to pray to the Father in Jesus' name if Jesus is the same God, why is he needed as in intermediary or high priest if they are one and the same?

#18) If the Bible is the innerant word of God and all that is needed why does every denomination ignore biblical commands that are not in their doctrine and beliefs?

[JustMiss]

10) How free are your prayers? What form do they take?

Hi Elgama, can you expand a little more on what you are asking here? I'm not sure I understand what your question. :)

Thanks!

[Elgama]

Hi Elgama, can you expand a little more on what you are asking here? I'm not sure I understand what your question. :)

Thanks!

basically how do you pray and what does it mean to you, would you classify as an answer to prayer? - I find when I do teachings with the missionaries that Christian's seem to be the most likely religion to have trouble with the idea of just saying a prayer that begins Dear Father in Heaven, Ending it in the name of Jesus Christ Amen and having a fairly free conversation inbetween - and I know some of the denominations I went to had set ideas as to what consitituted an answer to prayer or had set prayers.

-Charley

[prisonchaplain]

O

1) Why does God no longer use prophets, will He ever use prophets?

The gift of prophecy is for today. However, as we see it demonstrated in the New Testament--mostly in Corinthians, the prophetic word is for the particular congregation (or ward). Also, there are tests for a prophecy, indicating that it is subject to Scripture and established Apostles' teachings. BTW, I've actually experienced offering a prophetic word.

2) Why are there so many different doctrines on baptism when Jesus taught it was essential and felt it was so important He set an example? - where is the ONE baptism spoken of in the bible?

The one baptism is into Christ. Ironically, Jesus received the baptism of John--one of repentence--not the baptism we practice now, demonstrating the death burial and resurrection of Christ, and of ourselves.

3) Who gave you the authority to baptise? How did you know it came from Christ?

I'm sure you are familiar with "the priesthood of all believers." Essentially, the church universal is a royal priesthood, a holy nation. Within the Christian community, some are called by God to lead as overseers. The current leadership confirms what God has already done through the calling, by a process called ordination. Most churches leave it to the leaders, overseers to officiate baptisms.

4) How do you know the Bible is the Word of the God?

Through a combination of information and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. Information meaning, the facts surrounding the Bible--that it took 1400 years to make, another 200 years to canonize, that its 40 authors, from three language groups and varied backgrounds could produce a unified message explaining God's love for his creation--is indeed a miracle. Then of course, the church did indeed uphold it, and reject so many others...and that process has stood firm for 1700 years. Finally, yes, much like the Moroni promise, the Holy Spirit confirms to me that I am delving into holy word, when I read, study, and meditate on it.

5) What happens to those who are not baptised - because of age or not in a position to hear?

My church accepts the "age of accountability," doctrine--that Christ's sacrifice was for all those below the age of understanding and accountability. As for those who never heard the good news, I leave that into God's hands. He is fair, just, merciful, and yet in Romans 1, hints that we do all have some witness, even through creation itself. I gladly let him be the ultimate Judge.

6) Why did God leave Adam and Eve with Satan when he knew they had no concept of Good and Evil?

Based upon God's response to the sin of Adam and Eve, I'm convinced they were not innocent. They new what was right, and that what Satan told them was contrary. Further, I'd suggest that when Satan told them they would be like God, he was leading them to rebel--to attempt to sever God's control over them. After all, if they would become like God, why would they need God? Their lack of knowledge about evil should not be construed to mean that they were totally ignorant or foolish.

7) Describe God, Father, Jesus and Holy Ghost what do each of them mean to you what is their function?

I frankly hesitate to describe a hardlined delinneation, along the lines of a corporate organizational chart. We could say that the Father is Judge, and yet we know Christ will judge. The Father is the Creator, and yet all things were created by Jesus. Jesus sacrificed for our sins, and yet what greater sacrifice than a Father giving his Son?

But, I do pray to the Father. My authority is in Jesus' name, and his is my Savior and Redeemer. The Spirit guides, convicts, empowers me and moves my heart.

8) Why can women now speak in church and don't have to cover their heads (the latter is quite recent even as a child I know my elderly female relatives would not go to church without a hat)?

Jesus did so much to lift the status of women. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was the ultimate equalizer: You menservants and maidservants will prophecy! ...There is no more male or female...we are all one in Christ.

And yet, sensitive to the mores of the time, Paul urged the women not to bring shame upon the church, by flaunting their freedom to dress and behave like 'street women.' Further, the controversy about women speaking in the church seems to be related to interruptions caused by women calling out to their husbands during the services (they sat by gender), asking for explanations about what the teacher had said.

9) Who decided the Bible contents what was their authority? Why were books now found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and shown to be old left out? (at least Roman Catholics have a lot of them in their book to be read even if they are not seen as canon)

[

The process of canonization was carried about by church leaders, ordained of God. Many of those rejected writings contained heretical teachings and fantastical miracles. The main books that the Catholics added were taken from the intertestamental period, were written by Jews, and yet even Jewish leadership never canonized them.

10) How free are your prayers? What form do they take?

Oh I love to pray...in the Spirit, and with understanding. I pray offerings of praise, words of thanksgiving, petitions for missionaries, for lost loved ones, for healings, for my family, for myself, seeking for direction and strength...etc. Of course, there are times when the church prays corporately too...uniting together, agree together on earth that it might be bound in heaven.

11) If the God others worship isn't yours why doesn't yours answer my prayers, if He doesn't why should I believe in someone who has shown know care for my welfare over the God that has been in my life since I was a child and earned my trust and love over and over again?

I don't fully understand this one. There is only one God. If you come to know you worship God in a way that is not in truth, then insist on sticking with it because it's comfortable and works for you, then you are not worshipping God in spirit or in truth. Why would God have to honor that? Cain did that.

12) What is the Word of God? to me the Bible and my heart say its Jesus ?

Yes, Jesus is the Word (logos) of God. The Bible is God's words...Jesus is God's word.

[prisonchaplain]

#13) Why do many Christians believe that there denomination is the only one that will save them from an eternal hell, when it's said in scriptures that there are many rooms in the Father's mansion?

Actually, most Christians do not believe this. There is a saying that goes like this:

If a someone walks down the street and sees another church, you can tell what type of church s/he belongs to by his estimation of the other church.

a. If s/he says, "They're all doomed, because it isn't my church," s/he's in a cult.

b. If s/he says, "They're may be a few real Christians in that church," s/he's in a sect.

c. If s/he says, "Praise God for the good work my brothers and sisters are carrying on there," s/he's in a denomination.

#14) How is the belief that the majority of the Earth's population is going to suffer in an eternal hell reconciled with a belief in a loving God?

God is love, but He is also righteousness and justice. The miracle is not in the number of souls justly punished for their sin and rebellion, but the number of souls redeemed by Christ's mercy and shed-blood.

#15) Who is it Jesus prays too through out the Gospel when he prays to his Father if he is God himself?

The Son prays to his Father.

#16) Why does Jesus teach us to also pray to the Father and not to him?

Because it's his Dad's role to receive our prayers--in Jesus' name (and authority).

#17) Why are we told by many of the apostles to pray to the Father in Jesus' name if Jesus is the same God, why is he needed as in intermediary or high priest if they are one and the same?

Three persons, one God. Three-One. Tri-une. Tri-unity. There may be only one God, but there are three persons.

#18) If the Bible is the innerant word of God and all that is needed why does every denomination ignore biblical commands that are not in their doctrine and beliefs?

I'm guessing that the real question here is why there is not absolute agreement on every jot and tittle. The answer is that we are not yet exalted. But, spiritual optimist that I am, rather than becoming frustrated with the glass that's 10% unsettled (varying doctrinal opinions), I rejoice with the 90% unity that we have achieved.

[skalenfehl]

P.S. Elgama--you might want to retitle the OP "Questions for Protestants or Evangelicals" etc., since you would consider yourself a Christian too. :-)

Perhaps the term "traditional Christians" is more appropriate? I consider myself Christian. Just my two cents.

I am intrigued by how many different religions there are but to try and figure out the differences and how each evolved from the great Catholic Church factoring in the great inquisition (what was it covering up, if anything?), the holy task of witch hunting, and the Crusades, which changed the drastic attitude of Muslims toward Christians (Muslims originally regarded Christians as their brothers). I'd be interested to see a sort of "time line" of events chronicling the formation and branching out of each new Protestant and Evangelical church through today. I'm also fascinated by Martin Luthor and his famous 95 Thesis which he nailed to the Wittenburg Castle Church door.

[Andrew777]

Thanks for your answers and I'm glad to see we're in agreement -- the Godhead is three distinct persons in union of purpose.

I think you have a much higher view of the majority of Christians and unity then the reality of the situation. I think most Christians out there believe they are right and the rest are damned (We're including Roman Catholics here). My mother's husband tries to get all the churches together in just her small town to do interfaith ministry and it's almost impossible. It isn't just tiny doctrinal differences either it's huge and major social, religious and liturgical differences.

I don't find eternal punishment in the way that hell is described to be a just punishment for anyone at all.

The prayer question -- the protestant church I grew up in taught me to pray in the exact same way I was taught how to pray in the LDS church.

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks for your answers and I'm glad to see we're in agreement -- the Godhead is three distinct persons in union of purpose.

Except, of course, that I believe that the three persons are more than united in purpose, they are essentially one. God is one being, and there is only one God being. He is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I think you have a much higher view of the majority of Christians and unity then the reality of the situation. I think most Christians out there believe they are right and the rest are damned (We're including Roman Catholics here). My mother's husband tries to get all the churches together in just her small town to do interfaith ministry and it's almost impossible. It isn't just tiny doctrinal differences either it's huge and major social, religious and liturgical differences.

I didn't experience this difficulty at the Stand in the Gap rally, in Washington DC, Oct. 1997. Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Black, White, Asian, Native American, Messianic Jewish, Baptist, Nondenominational, etc.--all united in repentance before a holy God, convinced of our brotherhood.

[AnthonyB]

PC did an excellent job on answering these question but I though it would be worth while giving you another perspective.

1) Why does God no longer use prophets, will He ever use prophets?

God still uses prophets. I have a prophecy that I treasure, God really nailed me. It was spoken through a speaker at a YWAM base who was visiting for a week from the UK, I had never attended the meeting before and knew no one else in the meeting except the two friends who had come with me to the meeting. (Who both had not been there before either.) At the end of a short talk the guy singled me out (by referencing what I was wearing) and spoke the prophecy about me. I was the only one who got a personal prophecy.

I also believe there are apostles today, just that the church isn’t that good at recognizing them. I think the only word to describe someone like John Wesley would be as an apostle. In more modern times John Wimber would also I think be well within my understanding of an apostle.

2) Why are there so many different doctrines on baptism when Jesus taught it was essential and felt it was so important He set an example? - where is the ONE baptism spoken of in the bible?

The ONE baptism is of repentant believers into Jesus for the remission of their sins. People have traditions and creeds that have skewed their reading of the teaching on baptism.

3)Who gave you the authority to baptise? How did you know it came from Christ?

Jesus called me through His word and the urging of the Holy Spirit to be his disciple. He called his disciples to preach his word and baptize people. Jesus is the eternal high priest in the order of Melchizedek and all believers are priesthood holders.

4) How do you know the Bible is the Word of the God?

It was through the preaching of the bible (the written word of God) that I came to know about the living Word of God. (Jesus)

5) What happens to those who are not baptised - because of age or not in a position to hear?

Children under an age of understanding are accepted by a merciful God. However since children develop intellectual and socially at different rates I believe it would be inappropriate to set an actual age in years. Some people may never reach the point where they develop the ability to respond to the gospel message, I believe in God’s mercy for them as well. (Since I don’t except total depravity, children are (IMHO) not born inherently sinful but each must when able make a response of actively choosing God.)

6) Why did God leave Adam and Eve with Satan when he knew they had no concept of Good and Evil?

Maybe the question should be “Why did God set up a test, which he knew they might fail, and allow them to be tempted by Satan about?”

Firstly I don’t accept the notion that some LDS seem to have that God wanted them to fail. He may have known they would but that is different to thinking that He wanted them to fail. (CS Lewis describes in “Voyage to Venus” how learning of good and evil might have occurred without an actual fall.)

God clearly allowed a test of their faithfulness, and He already knew that they would fail, and He already had the plan of redemption in place.

7) Describe God, Father, Jesus and Holy Ghost what do each of them mean to you what is their function?

Jesus is God revealed to us in human form, who reveals what the Father is like. Jesus is God who was willing to take on humanness, with its limitations to bring us back into full relationship with the Father.

The Holy Spirit is to lead us to Christ through the written word and our spirits response to Him. He also assists us in this life to walk the Christian life and empowers us to witness of Jesus.

Father God is He who sent Jesus to us, to show us how much He loved us.

8) Why can women now speak in church and don't have to cover their heads (the latter is quite recent even as a child I know my elderly female relatives would not go to church without a hat)?

The bible clearly says that women can prophesy which is very hard to do being silent. PC covered this one very well.

9) Who decided the Bible contents what was their authority? Why were books now found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and shown to be old left out? (at least Roman Catholics have a lot of them in their book to be read even if they are not seen as canon)

The NT canon was decided by the church through the faithful interaction with the books bequeathed them by the Christians in the first couple of centuries. In other words the canon was not decided by a council or leaders per se but the testimony of inspiration given to the books by the multiplicity of early believers.

See PC’s answers on the apocrypha. (Not having seen a JST version but given you follow the KJV, I presume LDS would agree that the Protestants got the actual books to included right, else your prophet would have chosen say the Douay-Rheims version.)

10) How free are your prayers? What form do they take?

Prayer is conversation with God, whether done privately or in a group it is taking to God and listening to his response to us. It should be like the language we use with anybody else you are in a relationship with, informal when getting personal, slightly more formal when in groups and even more formal when doing ceremonial interactions. For instanced with your spouse, at home you talk informally, around other people you would talk slightly more formally to each other, when getting married you would generally be using formal language.

11) If the God others worship isn't yours why doesn't yours answer my prayers, if He doesn't why should I believe in someone who has shown know care for my welfare over the God that has been in my life since I was a child and earned my trust and love over and over again?

Surely LDS have the same issue in reverse with other Christians. For example PC’s church (AOG) is about 80 years younger then the CoJCoLDS. It is now around 4 times the size of the LDS church (52 million verses 13 million), it has grown largely on the basis of an emphasis on interaction of God (signs and wonders) with people in that church. “Speaking in tongues” is an expected part of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the AOG church and nearly universally all AOG members have or do “speak in tongues”.

Now even tough I disagree with PC church on a number doctrinal issues I have no doubt, whatever its imperfections are, that his church is truly being blessed by God and that God is moving in it and through it to build his kingdom.

For LDS though, given you believe that your church is the only true church with the only approved priesthood authority, does it not present a rather large challenge. Is God really moving in and building a church not based on his restored gospel. If God is not moving in signs and wonders then what is their source? Or if God is truly moving through people in that church, why is He building a church without the restored gospel?

12) What is the Word of God? to me the Bible and my heart say its Jesus ?

Jesus is the living word of God, revealed in the written word of God. Jesus is the fullness of the expression of His Father, which is now revealed in the testimony left us by his earliest followers.

13) Why do many Christians believe that there denomination is the only one that will save them from an eternal hell, when it's said in scriptures that there are many rooms in the Father's mansion?

As PC said only cults think they’re the only ones going to heaven, or the only ones in the true church. (This is partly why LDS get lumped in as a cult, because you make an exclusive claim to be the only true church.) Jesus saves people, it is not which denomination they belong to on earth, but they belong to His church on earth and in heaven.

[AnthonyB]

14) How is the belief that the majority of the Earth's population is going to suffer in an eternal hell reconciled with a belief in a loving God?

People have free will (agency), if people will not at least attempt to follow God here why do you think that they would want to after death? I like CS Lewis ideas in “The Great Divorce”. I see Hell as being (figuratively) locked from the inside, by people refusing God no matter what as much as from the outside (by God refusing them.)

15) Who is it Jesus prays too through out the Gospel when he prays to his Father if he is God himself?

Jesus prays to his Father, they have a personal relationship whilst both being the one God.

16) Why does Jesus teach us to also pray to the Father and not to him?

The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us, and Jesus points us to the Father.

17) Why are we told by many of the apostles to pray to the Father in Jesus' name if Jesus is the same God, why is he needed as in intermediary or high priest if they are one and the same?

Jesus is a different person but the same God.

18) If the Bible is the innerant word of God and all that is needed why does every denomination ignore biblical commands that are not in their doctrine and beliefs?

Differing groups interpret and emphasize differing doctrines and ideas from scripture usually due to either historical, cultural or prepositional imperatives.

[ztodd]

...

Surely LDS have the same issue in reverse with other Christians. For example PC’s church (AOG) is about 80 years younger then the CoJCoLDS. It is now around 4 times the size of the LDS church (52 million verses 13 million), it has grown largely on the basis of an emphasis on interaction of God (signs and wonders) with people in that church. “Speaking in tongues” is an expected part of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the AOG church and nearly universally all AOG members have or do “speak in tongues”.

Wow, all 52 million members speak in tongues? What is the nature of this speaking in tongues? Is it all just in unknown languages so nobody understands them? What purpose does it serve?

Edit: Where did you get the 52 million number from? Their 2006 report shows 1,763,401 members.

[AnthonyB]

That was a world wide figure and probably includes affliated groupings, Isn't the 13 mill for LDS the world wide number? Wikipedia gives the number at 57 million for the AOG. They number well into the millions in Brazil alone. I guess your number is for the US alone.

Do you won't me to find official figures? Although exact numbers aren't the issue. The question is about God manifesting His presence and assisting in growth in churches that have not a "restored" priesthood. I was merely showing the other side to the questions asked, it is tough a question. I'm sure that many LDS feel convinced that they have a true and real relationship with the Jesus of the bible and so do other Christians and yet we very different views on things, one of us are likely to be wrong about God and Jesus.

Speaking in tongues is a form of "glossalia", generally seen as speaking in an angelic language.

[Andrew777]

I didn't experience this difficulty at the Stand in the Gap rally, in Washington DC, Oct. 1997. Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Black, White, Asian, Native American, Messianic Jewish, Baptist, Nondenominational, etc.--all united in repentance before a holy God, convinced of our brotherhood.

This kind of thing is the exception rather then the rule and only works if it's kept very inoffensive to anyone's doctrines. If they all agreed they would be one church not hundreds. We have similar events here on Easter. There are still many that believe they're the only right ones. I worked at a Christian homeless shelter with employees of many different Christian groups, they would debate and proclaim each other to be following the doctrines of demons using the bible to 'reproof' each other. The liked to pick on the Roman Catholic girl the most, she was going straight to hell for being a papist, it certainly wasn't a brotherhood of happy Christians all working in tandem.

As PC said only cults think they’re the only ones going to heaven, or the only ones in the true church. (This is partly why LDS get lumped in as a cult, because you make an exclusive claim to be the only true church.) Jesus saves people, it is not which denomination they belong to on earth, but they belong to His church on earth and in heaven.

Are Roman Catholics a cult?

[a-train]

As PC said only cults think they’re the only ones going to heaven, or the only ones in the true church. (This is partly why LDS get lumped in as a cult, because you make an exclusive claim to be the only true church.) Jesus saves people, it is not which denomination they belong to on earth, but they belong to His church on earth and in heaven.

What is funny is the fact that LDS people do NOT believe they are the only people to be saved nor that the statement of 'only true and living Church' somehow implies that her members are the only subjects of the saving blood of Christ.

There will be many who are not called Mormon who will be exalted and many who were called Mormon who will not.

-a-train

[AnthonyB]

Andrew777,

I think historically many non catholics did veiw the RC as a "cult" (and regretfully far stronger language was used by many).

With Vatican II, they softened their stand somewhat, they have now recognized a number of other churches (eg Orthodox) as true churches. I think they currently view most protestants as not in true churches but as groupings that through their historic links to their one true church have some standing before God.

a-train,

I should have said that is why some people percieve LDS as a cult. (Although the same people would claim that many of the churches that I feel some connection to are cults as well.)

Surely however even though I followed almost precept for precept the same path to Christ as you, (ie Believe, Repent, confess Christ, Be baptized for the remission of sins and walk obediently to Jesus commands to my best ability) you veiw me as outside the church of Christ and not having had a true baptism (and therefore not having had my sins remitted by baptism) all because I have not done any of this under the authority of your church.

It is one thing to claim to have a God granted truth or understanding or that your group has more truth than others. (Why would any join a church that they thought was more untrue than others!) The reserving of all true spiritual authority and ordinances/sacrements to your church alone is what many find problematic. We see Jesus in others and therefore cannot deny that He is at work in them. To an LDS I have never been baptised or taken communion (sacrement) or am I misunderstanding your position?

Now as for exalted, are you saying that non-Mormons might get to the celestial kingdom?

[Vanhin]

What is funny is the fact that LDS people do NOT believe they are the only people to be saved nor that the statement of 'only true and living Church' somehow implies that her members are the only subjects of the saving blood of Christ.

There will be many who are not called Mormon who will be exalted and many who were called Mormon who will not.

-a-train

Exactly. Peter, James, John, Moses, Nephi, and Moroni to name a few. None were called Mormons. And all the little children who died before the age of accountability throughout all the ages.

Not to mention countless others who will be saved into lesser degrees of glory because of the saving blood of Christ, and all those who are saved from physical death who ever were born into mortality because of the Atonement of Christ.

Regards,

Vanhin

Ps. The prophet Mormon, on the other hand, is a tricky one. Technically he was not a Mormon...

[AnthonyB]

Vanhin,

Although I get the humour...(Mormon was not a Mormon.)

But the inference of my last question was, after the restoration, can anyone outside the Mormon church enter the celestial kingdom?

[Andrew777]

Orthodox churches are the only ones Roman Catholics recognize as actually being churches and having proper authority even though they consider that authority "valid but illicit". Other churches are religious groups and not actually churches according to Roman Catholic doctrine they are not part of Christ's church, neither do they have any authority to forgive sins by taking confession or to administer the Eucharist. Roman Catholics are the largest Christian group in the world.

Most Christians I've talked to believe Mormons are going to hell, even though like you said we've repented, received baptism, ect... just as they have. Many Christian groups fight over things like --is baptism necessary for salvation, is speaking in tounges necessary to prove being filled with the holy spirit, what is the exact nature of the trinity, and on and on, they're hardly one unified force and many believe they have the right doctrine that will send them to Heaven and others have the wrong doctrine that is going to send them to hell. If they were in agreement there would only be one church.

As for getting into the celestial kingdom. Yes, people that haven't heard the gospel and learned about the LDS church can get into the celestial kingdom, as well as those that haven't reached the age of accountability. Those people that have heard the gospel, understood it yet wouldn't accept it won't be able to go to the celestial kingdom but they won't go to hell. In the end it's all going to be about how much a person was willing to keep God's commandments and honestly seek the truth, it will be up to God and the individual.

[ztodd]

That was a world wide figure and probably includes affliated groupings, Isn't the 13 mill for LDS the world wide number? Wikipedia gives the number at 57 million for the AOG. They number well into the millions in Brazil alone. I guess your number is for the US alone.

You're right- it was for the US alone. Sorry about that.

Do you won't me to find official figures? Although exact numbers aren't the issue. The question is about God manifesting His presence and assisting in growth in churches that have not a "restored" priesthood. I was merely showing the other side to the questions asked, it is tough a question. I'm sure that many LDS feel convinced that they have a true and real relationship with the Jesus of the bible and so do other Christians and yet we very different views on things, one of us are likely to be wrong about God and Jesus.

Speaking in tongues is a form of "glossalia", generally seen as speaking in an angelic language.

Is it always in an unknown language? What is the purpose of it?

I agree that God manifests His presence in other churches. I believe His spirit can be felt anywhere His truth is reverently taught. I think most churches teach many good things, and it's better for a person to be in a church learning good things than to not be in any church. So I'm sure God does lead people into other churches.

But on the flip side, there are many false things being taught in many of the churches. Which is why we should always be watchful in the doctrines we are taught.

You noticed that we have some very different views on things, so one of us is likely to be wrong about some things. You're right. Maybe both of us are wrong about some things. Let us always be humble and watchful unto prayer.

[JonboySquarepants]

does the church break its membership numbers down by country/continent? i thought that 12/13 million was the count for the church as a whole.