Alcohol and the Words of Wisdom


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A man can't serve two masters though. He will embrace one and hate the other or vice versa. We read in the Bible that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Kona, my friend, it sounds to me like you are a man of conscience. Truly we are spiritual beings in tabernacles of flesh and thus by trying to overcome the flesh as Christ did, can we become more spiritual. I know by reading other posts by you that you do seek something better, though you want to keep your mortal vices. Unfortunately if you can't decide now, one day it will be decided for you.

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I think it's almost a certain that any commandment, law or a rule needs to be adhered to and followed. There is no question about that. The question is in knowing whether the current interpretation is true given the WoW's original wording to distinguish between strong and mild drink and the fact it was sent "not by commandment or constraint".

I am more than happy with the responses as given in previous discussions that God will give further information or ask something different as time progresses.

It may be a case that at some point in the future, we all grow up, there is no danger of alcoholism anymore and God says Ok, you guys can now go and enjoy a beer.

I don't agree with the current interpretation of the WoW, I don't believe God would necessarily advocate a one size fits all approach. I also don't support the notion that alcohol is evil, or non-alcoholic beer is evil and what's the point.

The point is that some people like the taste, and the fact of the matter, alcohol can be enjoyed responsibly.

But if I joined the church, I would follow the comamndments. No question.

You logic could be applied to any commandment or dictate from God. We are to be obediant however to all of his commandments. Even the WofW as it is stands presently.

Gods' commandments in fact are one size fits all.

The problem I see with your view as stated is that you fail to understand that many evil or bad things for Gods people are fun, taste good, exciting, etc. but never the less, they still can be bad for man. Whether it be alcohol, drug, living on the edge, etc.

Example: The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden and eating the forbidden fruit .

As to alcohol, when a person is under the influence of alcohol, they in fact do things that they otherwise would not do. Children are conceived out of wedlock, driving while intoxicating, words are spoken that can never be taken back, etc.

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As to alcohol, when a person is under the influence of alcohol, they in fact do things that they otherwise would not do. Children are conceived out of wedlock, driving while intoxicating, words are spoken that can never be taken back, etc.

IF they drink too much and get drunk. One a day can't hurt. I certainly do not get drunk.

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IF they drink too much and get drunk. One a day can't hurt. I certainly do not get drunk.

I wonder if Eve rationalized the same way, just before she ate the apple. Or I wonder how many alcoholics said the same thing, just before their first drink, or the meth user before his first hit of meth.

One a day, sure sounds like a daily habit to me.:)

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I think the problem people have with the word of wisdom goes much deeper than "I like my beer" or whatever... It's a lack of willingness to obey REVELATION given directly to God's prophet upon this Earth. This may be because they don't truly believe them to be a prophet of God, and that obedience won't come until they learn for themselves through faith and practice of the principles stated in those revelations that Joseph Smith (or the prophet in question) was really called of God. You can look at it scientifically, but you won't go very far. Once we start trying to find reasons for revelations, we step outside of doctrine. What's in coffee/tea that makes it bad for your body? What's bad about alcohol? Why was the priesthood withheld from (most) black members until 1978? We shouldn't speculate so much upon these things. If you have faith in modern revelation through our past and living prophets, prove those revelations true by being obedient to them and seeing the good fruits they yield. I will never go about trying to prove any of this to you because it's futile. If you want reasons to believe, you're out of luck.

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And you are also allowing another Human being tell you what you should or should not do.

Slavery. Submission. That's what it is called when you let others run your life.

So, someone at work is telling you to do something, are you they're slave? It's a guideline, you do not have to follow it Kona. There are consequences if you don't, just like there are consequences if you don't do what your superior at works says. No one in the church has ever forced me to do anything. I've been asked, things have been suggested, but I was never forced. That's the difference between this and slavery.
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Guest Seraphim

Slavery. Submission. That's what it is called when you let others run your life.

Your antagonistic posts here need to stop. Comparing the church to slave owners is inflammatory. Commandments are followed by choice, not with chains.

Seraphim

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Well I'm not happy when I live by the WoW. I want to smoke. I like to drink. I love my Earl Grey tea.

I was happy with my life before those missionaries knocked on my door. Now I'm in a constant struggle between what I know I should do and what I want to do.

Im not one to talk but ask the question whether you believe it to be correct or not, whether it is of God or not.

I wouldn't imagine you'd complain that you're not allowed to murder people so your rights are being affected.

Think of tea, and smoking in much the same way, only difference is, it's not so much of an earthly law but a heavenly one, and perhaps if you can come to think of it like that, and be sure that the restriction is of God, then maybe that will be of benefit to you.

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You logic could be applied to any commandment or dictate from God. We are to be obediant however to all of his commandments. Even the WofW as it is stands presently.

Gods' commandments in fact are one size fits all.

Some of them are perhaps justifiably so, in terms of not murdering and not stealing. Quite right you shouldn't do things that hurt other people.

But when we start talking about alcohol and cigarettes, we start getting into the realm of taking away personal things that could be abused.

The problem I see with your view as stated is that you fail to understand that many evil or bad things for Gods people are fun, taste good, exciting, etc. but never the less, they still can be bad for man. Whether it be alcohol, drug, living on the edge, etc.

You think I fail to understand this? I've been saying this all through. I have been saying consistently that things can be used responsibly, or they can be used abusively.

I am an alcohol enjoyer. Too many times I read in the newspaper, alcohol blamed for the worlds ills. Alcohol blamed for some young thug committing a crime. Wrong. It's the thug that is to blame. Not alcohol. As with all things, it can be used responsibly, or it can be used abusively. I would fully encourage a system of education to stop the abusive use of alcohol. I think to achieve this, an individual needs to take more responsibility.

I don't know whether you've seen any of those car crime documentaries. Even a spark plug can be used irresponsibly to damage someones car.

I totally and completely disagree that an inanimate object is evil Something can be used responsibly or it can be used abusively. At the end of the day, it is the person and not the product that is responsible for that abusive behaviour. I do not see why someone should be told that they are wrong if they responsibly enjoy a legal past time.

If God says it, then it's a different matter entirely.

Example: The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden and eating the forbidden fruit .

As to alcohol, when a person is under the influence of alcohol, they in fact do things that they otherwise would not do. Children are conceived out of wedlock, driving while intoxicating, words are spoken that can never be taken back, etc.

That never happens to responsible drinkers. Im a responsible drinker and I can tell you I've never driven while drunk, I've never said a bad word, I've never been abusive or had sex outside of marriage.

This is part of the problem and the, I have to say it, immature behaviour about alcohol. Alcohol does not cause this, it is the irresponsible way in which many people now abuse alcohol.

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I think the problem people have with the word of wisdom goes much deeper than "I like my beer" or whatever... It's a lack of willingness to obey REVELATION given directly to God's prophet upon this Earth. This may be because they don't truly believe them to be a prophet of God, and that obedience won't come until they learn for themselves through faith and practice of the principles stated in those revelations that Joseph Smith (or the prophet in question) was really called of God.

Well said. That's almost exactly how I feel. I generally believe Joseph Smith and his more liberal Word of Wisdom. This perhaps goes a bit beyond the initial newcomer as someone who's asked a couple of questions.

I know Im not sure of the whole Brigham Young thing and read suggestions that hot drinks was redefined as tea and coffee due to price of the coffee while moving to Utah...

I know I didn't understand the idea of continuing and altering revelation.

But I do understand that now.

However I think you've hit the nail on the head in believing the current prophet.

I will say categorically full out, for me, what Joseph Smith said makes sense. The Book of Mormon is a wonderful book and the D&C makes a lot of sense in its original form. It speaks plainly to me.

But I keep trying to ask God saying, I have faith in the BoM it's bought me closer to you, I have greater spirituality but I need to know the current church is still true, show me the path I should take.

And nada. Zip. Nothing. I hear nothing.

So I continue struggling wondering how I can know if it's true. What if I join and I feel it isn't?

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Was it revelation that was alter or one mans thoughts transponse on paper or in a speech. At times, I converse a thought to the keyboard to another person and feel the Holy Spirit. Is that revelation or doctrine?

What is our life styles [daily habits that are not in comformance with Deity]? Our level of faith? What is our true desires? Is our kneeling prayers bouncing off the ceiling? Are we spiritual mature enough to hear the answer? Are we impatience on waiting for the answer since it never comes on your time. Something to think about.

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Today I was guided to this wonderful and all-encompassing verse in D&C, and I have been told to apply it to EVERY situation in life, EVERY moment!!! What a relief!

"Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?"~Jesus Christ

(Doctrine and Covenants 38:22) Revelation given through Joseph Smith, the Prophet at Fayette, New York, January 2, 1831.

I am truly blessed and dancing in gratitude!

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Well I'm not happy when I live by the WoW. I want to smoke. I like to drink. I love my Earl Grey tea.

I was happy with my life before those missionaries knocked on my door. Now I'm in a constant struggle between what I know I should do and what I want to do.

What is your problem then Kona? Do what you KNOW is the right (. . . what I know I should do. . . ) and your struggles and confusion will end. Why do you allow the advasary to bring contention, strife, confussion and these struggles of doubt into your life?

Choose the right, Do what is right.

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Let's back the wagon train up a bit.

The Word of Wisdom is a law of health revealed by the Lord for the physical and spiritual benefit of His children. On February 27, 1833, as recorded in section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord revealed which foods are good for us to eat and which substances are not good for the human body. He also promised health, protection, knowledge, and wisdom to those who obey the Word of Wisdom.

D:C 89 Sect.

1 A aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of bconspiring men in the last days, I have cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

It was later revised from a warning to be a commandment of the Lord.

Of particuliar interest is the following portion of the 89 Section :“In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation …” (D&C 89:4.)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stands committed unequivocally to the doctrine that tea, coffee, tobacco, and intoxicants are not good for man. True Latter-day Saints refrain from indulgence in tobacco and drink, either of stimulants or of intoxicants, and by example and precept, teach others to do the same.

God has told us that in DC 1: 31 For I the Lord cannot look upon a sin with the least degree of allowance;

The WofW is important enough to be viewed as a qualifier to obtan a Temple Recommend, which indicates its importance to God and the Church.

Having stated the above: For those who want to continue to take the position that a cigarette or beer in moderation is okay, please explain how your position is not being disobediant to one of Gods commandments. No different than stealing, lying, cheating, being dishonest, etc..

President Faust indicated in one of his talks - When obedience becomes our goal, it is no longer an irritation; instead of a stumbling block, it becomes a building block.

Obedience to the Word of Wisdom keeps us from addictions so we do not become slaves to alcohol, drugs, or tobacco. Our bodies will be healthy and our minds clear because the promise associated with this principle is that “all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones.” 7

An additional promise in this revelation says we “shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures.” 8 So by obedience we also gain knowledge. As the Savior said, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine.” 9

Obedience brings peace in decision making. If we have firmly made up our minds to follow the commandments, we will not have to redecide which path to take when temptation comes our way. That is how obedience brings spiritual safety."

While I apolgize for being so blunt, it would seem that those who choose to rationalize breaking this commandment or any other for that matter is simply fooling themselves. IMHO

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So, someone at work is telling you to do something, are you they're slave? It's a guideline, you do not have to follow it Kona. There are consequences if you don't, just like there are consequences if you don't do what your superior at works says. No one in the church has ever forced me to do anything. I've been asked, things have been suggested, but I was never forced. That's the difference between this and slavery.

Well then focus on the word submission. I'm not willing to change my habits to suit the WoW. I invite people to do as they like. I'll find my own way.

(This post is my opinion. I hope it is read as such.)

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Let's back the wagon train up a bit.

The Word of Wisdom is a law of health revealed by the Lord for the physical and spiritual benefit of His children. On February 27, 1833

Back to the 1833 version then...

It was later revised from a warning to be a commandment of the Lord.

You will also remember it was later revised to suggest that Strong Drinks and Mild Drinks, though clearly defined in the original WoW - "barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain", was redefined to mean all alcohol is forbidden. Hot Drinks was also revised to mean tea and coffee.

Of particuliar interest is the following portion of the 89 Section :“In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation …” (D&C 89:4.)

If we are still talking about the 1833 version, then it is only a warning. Perhaps this means that the use of these substances is only something to be mindful of but not a commandment but perhaps reminding us we should be careful?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stands committed

now... they stand committed now...

unequivocally to the doctrine that tea, coffee, tobacco, and intoxicants are not good for man.

Absolutely.

True Latter-day Saints refrain from indulgence in tobacco and drink, either of stimulants or of intoxicants, and by example and precept, teach others to do the same.

Fully agreed. And should I ever become LDS, I would obey its precepts. I am not LDS however yet and I choose to live my life in accordance with my current beliefs.

God has told us that in DC 1: 31 For I the Lord cannot look upon a sin with the least degree of allowance;

The WofW is important enough to be viewed as a qualifier to obtan a Temple Recommend, which indicates its importance to God and the Church.

Quite right.

Having stated the above: For those who want to continue to take the position that a cigarette or beer in moderation is okay, please explain how your position is not being disobediant to one of Gods commandments. No different than stealing, lying, cheating, being dishonest, etc..

No one said it was ok to have a beer when you're LDS. I am not a Mormon, something I have stated several times. Kona I believe is also not a Mormon. He appears to be struggling to align his desires with his beliefs in which he believes the church to be correct.

I am struggling to believe the church is correct now. Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in the religion and have been for eight years. I've been looking for that extra nudge to push me. Im looking to God for further information to get the assurance that I need. I hope soon to be attending a meeting.

When I ask God now, as non LDS, the over riding feeling I get is that there is no problem with drinking responsibly - that doesn't tie in with the current WoW.

As non LDS, it is my belief and therefore my right to enjoy alcohol, legally and responsibly. It is also my perogative to counteract arguments such as yours and to remind people that inanimate objects are not evil. It is only the abusive use of such that is evil.

It is also my perogative that should I join the LDS, I would still look upon beer as being a favourable and enjoyable drink that if drunk incorrectly would cause problems. At the same time, if I was LDS I would also recognise the commandment given to me and would abstain of my own free will. I don't have all the information to say why even half a pint of beer a week is disallowed.

I hope you can see my point regarding the abusive use vs responsible use of alcohol and hopefully can agree that even half a pint of beer a week would cause no problems and could therefore hardly be classed as evil.

The problem I will say again is the abusive use of alcohol, and as long as people keep saying that it is alcohol itself which is evil rather than the abusive use of alcohol, then I think God might have something in keeping it off the menu when we think its alcohol and not the abusive people who drink it that is the problem.

While I apolgize for being so blunt, it would seem that those who choose to rationalize breaking this commandment or any other for that matter is simply fooling themselves. IMHO

Too true. But myself, and Kona, I do not believe are breaking these "commandments" as our current belief system does not include this.

There really is no apology necessary, I didn't see any bluntness. I think we've discussed that have already been discussed before. Please bear in mind that my current belief system allows me to drink alcohol responsibly. I am not LDS. And I believe it is the abusive user of alcohol that is evil, not alcohol itself. I will defend my right to drink alcohol, but I certainly wouldn't say it is OK for any religious person to break their beliefs.

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Well then focus on the word submission. I'm not willing to change my habits to suit the WoW. I invite people to do as they like. I'll find my own way.

(This post is my opinion. I hope it is read as such.)

That's fine, but don't criticize us and our choices. We are not slaves to the WoW, we choose to follow it just as you choose not to. If you don't want to join the church, that's fine. If you want to, that's fine also, but please show a little respect for our beliefs and practices.
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I have plenty of respect for the Church. If it was not so I would not attend Sacrament when I can. I just have a few issues with Church history and teachings. I apologize if I hurt anyone in my useless ramblings. It seems I can no longer post at this site as a few moderators will always have some kind of issue with me.

Too true. But myself, and Kona, I do not believe are breaking these "commandments" as our current belief system does not include this.

Exactly. Well said.

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Well then focus on the word submission. I'm not willing to change my habits to suit the WoW. I invite people to do as they like. I'll find my own way.

(This post is my opinion. I hope it is read as such.)

Kona,

You intrigue me. You seem to be so sure of the LDS faith, yet you struggle at the WoW.

(I don't know if you're at the stage Im at or one stage next). You seem to be hyper sure but can't break your habits.

Iggy hit it on the head when he picked up on that phrase you used about the struggling between what you know you should do, and what you want to do.

Do you believe the WoW is man made or from God? If you believe it is from God there should be no problem.

Im sure you could get some help on cutting back on the things you know you should do with out. Don't even go cold turkey, just see if you can make a four pack of beer last the week. Then try for two weeks. And so on.

How do we get you wanting to do what you know you should do? I read that phrase again and Im a little envious that you know what you should do.

Im slightly different in that I want to, but I don't know I should!

Cya

Simon

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Do you believe the WoW is man made or from God?

I believe the WoW is man made - at this point. That can change.

Im sure you could get some help on cutting back on the things you know you should do with out. Don't even go cold turkey, just see if you can make a four pack of beer last the week. Then try for two weeks. And so on.

The funny thing is that I do not smoke and I really do not drink. I drink maybe a pint a night IF I can afford it.. This started recently and I can stop anytime. So looking back the only thing I have been doing wrong is drinking coffee and tea. I can quit those at a drop of a hat.

It's the point of changing my habits to suit the Church that bothers me.

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I have plenty of respect for the Church. If it was not so I would not attend Sacrament when I can. I just have a few issues with Church history and teachings. I apologize if I hurt anyone in my useless ramblings. It seems I can no longer post at this site as a few moderators will always have some kind of issue with me.

Hey we all make mistakes from time to time in our wording. I can understand the idea that religion feels very controlling, especially when you havent had that control before.

I'd hope the moderators can see past your transgression.

I can see how it seems from the other side of the fence too though- the LDS religion compared to dominance and slavery. :eek: Perhaps a humble apology might be considered?

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