Do you think that God once was a man?

[Mullenite]

Do you think that God once was a man?

Lorenzo Snow, a President of the Church, once said "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." This controversial passage is clearly applicable to Christ himself, a God who became mortal for a time and yet was still and is still God. His work made it possible for us to become as he is, in a sense, for we can receive glorious resurrected bodies (Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:40-45), we can become "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18), we can "put on the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3-10), and we can become "like him" (1 John 3:2). Indeed, Christ even went so far as to say, "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), in reference to the divine potential of human beings. While He and the Father are the one true God, whom we will always worship, He does want us to become more like the Father (Matt. 5:48) and the possibility is there because of Christ. Thus, thinking of Christ and our relationship to Him, what Lorenzo Snow said is accurate. However, it appears that Lorenzo Snow's quote also applies to the Father, indicating that He also experienced a period of mortality, but we know nothing specific. But before you let the idea of "God once being like man" offend you, remember that it is explicitly true about Christ Himself. If Christ were the same being as God the Father, then it would also be true of the Father as well, so non-LDS critics who accept the doctrine of the Trinity shouldn't get so upset. Of course, we believe that God and Christ are separate individuals, one in purpose, heart, and mind. But, in the spirit of pure speculation, let me ask if it is possible that Christ, during His mission on the earth, was doing that which He had seen the Father do? In John 5:19, Christ said "The Son can do nothing, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." Some people have speculated on what is meant by John 5:19 and on what Lorenzo Snow meant, but we do not know and I get very nervous when people pretend they know. Certainly there are many difficult and foolish questions which can be asked in this arena. The important point is that God, Christ, and man are of the same "species," and that man has divine potential to become more like Christ and the Father (e.g., see Romans 8:14-18; 2 Peter 1:4-10; 1 John 3:2). This concept was understood by the early Christians, as show above.

Knowing who Christ is makes me very suspicious of anyone who says that we will become EXACTLY like Him. The Bible teaches that we can become "joint heirs" (Rom. 8:14-18) and can become "like him" (I John 3:2) and indeed, need to become like him (Matt. 5:48) and one with him (John 17:21-23). Stronger still, Paul in Philippians 2: 5-7 seems to urge us to pursue that goal, not through puffery, but through humble service:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant...."

However, I sense a big difference between the "small g" gods that Christ mentioned (John 10:34) in speaking of the potential of humans (my view) and God the Eternal Father, who is the one and only everlasting God (see also I Cor. 8:5,6). The reference to humans as potential "gods" is clearly meant in a limited sense, but the word used is still "gods." Obviously, we know too little to explain anything in depth about the next life and about "the glory that shall be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18). We are like microbes looking up through the microscope and speculating about the scientist who observes us. We are children, following after our wise and mature Father, knowing little more than a young child does of the things of God. This we know: the glory is to the Father (and Christ) forever.

[Hemidakota]

This statement has caused great strife in the days of President Snow. I do feel for this prophet and knowing some of the brethren must have reacted to this statement when it was revealed.

As with any prophet, apostle, or general authority, leaders within the church, when given privy to a unique revelation that is not ordinary and perhaps outside the 'black box', the usual knee jerk reaction of arrogance may surface by others. No matter if you tell them to go and ponder on what is present and ask the spirit yourself, they still spew the usual gibberish nonsense from people claiming to be all knowing. Even our brother and Prophet Joseph Smith had jackals hounding his heal when he present some extraordinary revelation to the membership of the church. My gratitude for these brethren in standing their ground, as I do this to this very day.

Now from President Snow statement, we can learn a great deal on what transpired prior to godhood by our beloved Father. I was reminded of Elder Romney conference talk that talked about receiving knowledge of about the corporal of God;

This knowledge of God opened up to Joseph Smith, as it does to all of us, a vision with infinite promise. We all know that like begets like and that for the offspring to grow to the stature of his parent is a process infinitely repeated in nature. We can therefore understand that for a son of God to grow to the likeness of his Father in heaven is in harmony with natural law. We see this law demonstrated every few years in our own experience. Sons born to mortal fathers grow up to be like their fathers in the flesh. This is the way it will be with spirit sons of God. They will grow up to be like their Father in heaven. Joseph taught this obvious truth. As a matter of fact, he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection. From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Prophet Joseph considered a knowledge of God to be of such importance that in setting forth the beliefs of the Church, he placed it at the head of the list-"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, . . ." (Articles of Faith.)

One with such a knowledge is in the way of eternal life, for, according to the teachings of Jesus, ". . . this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3.) Having such knowledge, one is assured that God, although infinite and eternal, the framer of heavens and the earth and all things that in them are, being the possessor of all power, all wisdom, and all understanding, being more intelligent than all other beings, is, nevertheless an individual-an understanding, kind, and loving parent ready to hear and minister to the needs of his children-that he is not merely some unthinkable, unknowable, indefinable, far-off, distant force. When one with such a knowledge prays, he knows that he is praying to some one and not just to some thing. (Elder Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1964, Second DayMorning Meeting, p.49-50)

[Dr T]

My answer is "No, I don't think God was once a man."

[AnthonyB]

Dr T,

Don't you mean, God the Father was never a man?

[Dr T]

Yes Sir. I'd say God the Father was never a man. :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yes, if a prophet tells me Heavenly Father was once a man then I believe him.

[Shell72]

Yes, if a prophet tells me Heavenly Father was once a man then I believe him.

Would you not question the prophets validity if he told you something that directly contradicted what the Bible says?

[Hemidakota]

Validate point. But what contradicts the Bible.

I for one, don't require the prophets to tell me that GOD physically is a man.

[Traveler]

Jesus is the example where by all things of G-d are made known.

Jesus once was a man.

The Traveler

[Mullenite]

Hey Anthony B; A challenge... to read the Book of Mormon; Answer your on statement-Question. I have read and used the Bible in study all my life, and still do. In the supplement, the Book of Mormon there is a promise -Moroni 10: 3-5 .... a personal promise ..... [Verse 4] says, "And when ye shall receive these things, I world exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true, and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto You, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

[prisonchaplain]

Jesus is the example where by all things of G-d are made known.

Jesus once was a man.

The Traveler

But, Traveler, is Jesus is completely distinct from the Father, then why would we assume that everything Jesus did/experienced mirrored what the Father had? Would you really argue that the Heavenly Father, somewhere before our mortal existence, experienced crucifixion, after his Father sent him to redeem a people he loved???

[ruthiechan]

I am uncertain. While in the book "the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr", Joseph reasons so, but such reasoning is in an infinite loop and that makes little sense to me (as in Heavenly Father is the Son of His Heavenly Father and so on and so forth). I do know that the scriptures talk about the universe being one eternal round however. . .

Also, I have to wonder, which God was Snow refering to? God the Father or God the Son Jesus Christ? If we are speaking of Jesus Christ then the answer is a resounding "Yes!" If we're speaking of the Father, then I have to wonder at the specifics.

[Traveler]

But, Traveler, is Jesus is completely distinct from the Father, then why would we assume that everything Jesus did/experienced mirrored what the Father had? Would you really argue that the Heavenly Father, somewhere before our mortal existence, experienced crucifixion, after his Father sent him to redeem a people he loved???

This question has been discussed before in another place and in another time - I believe the answer that Jesus gave - is that if you have seen him (what he is and does) that in that example we will see the Father also.

I did not make up this doctrine. It is not mine. The demonstration of what is between G-d and man manifested in Jesus Christ is not a doctrine I would cast off without asking, knocking and seeking wisdom beyond the rhetoric of man's imagination. Without question it is possible but neither you nor I have the power to make it true or false. But we do have at our disposal the means to be enlightened and know – and that means is in Jesus Christ.

The Traveler

[ztodd]

God was and is still a man- an exalted Man of Holiness. It is also stated in the bible that we are all gods. Whichever way you look at it, we and our Heavenly Father are of the same species. We are literal children of the Most High. Thus we are gods and our Father in Heaven is an exalted Man.

Don't think that this takes away from His glory - it does not in the least. He is all powerful, all wise, all knowing, and all loving. There is no changing that. He has always been and will always be our God. Our potential to become as He is only adds to His glory.

[Dr T]

I see God as all those things you listed Z :) I've listed before that the use of "gods" are only used for false gods and not God. I don't believe we are "literal" children of the Most High, as in he procreated us. I also don't see that "our potential to become as He is only adds to his glory" as you said. We are the created or the creature while He is the creator. He is so high above us. He is altogether lovely, altogether wonderful and I do not believe we can achieve anything remotely close to what He is. God is the only God there is period.

[ztodd]

I respect your right to your beliefs Dr T, and appreciate you sharing them. It's interesting how we can use the same bible and come up with these different beliefs about God. But as long as we both are being true to what we feel is right then we're doing alright. I feel no need to "bible bash" or argue any of these points.

[Hemidakota]

Affirmative. Though, a major issue with individuals who fight against the truth or the gospel in telling people not to pray. A classic example is the Lighthouse Ministry out of Texas. After long lengthy discussion, they finally post that prayer will not answer what Moroni talked about. Total arrogance for a new-age Christians.

As Traveler said, Jesus was once a man. So were all the GODS that have human form.

[Hemidakota]

I see God as all those things you listed Z :) I've listed before that the use of "gods" are only used for false gods and not God. I don't believe we are "literal" children of the Most High, as in he procreated us. I also don't see that "our potential to become as He is only adds to his glory" as you said. We are the created or the creature while He is the creator. He is so high above us. He is altogether lovely, altogether wonderful and I do not believe we can achieve anything remotely close to what He is. God is the only God there is period.

Genesis, plurality was used [we, our]. It denotes more than one person was involved in the creational process. Creation or cloning Himself a likeness and thus Adam was born to the world, another overlooked fact. Even Stephen viewed the heavenly scene and saw Christ and the FATHER together. It goes on and on....

What is the glory of GOD?

Sidenote - As we gazed into the Heavens above, there are 15-mega galaxies that obit the center of this Universe. 15…see a number pattern here? Yes, there will be 'claimed' Astro-physics scientists that may chime in to know how and why there is only 15. However, they need to look from the outside to view it as a whole.

[Vanhin]

I see God as all those things you listed Z :) I've listed before that the use of "gods" are only used for false gods and not God. I don't believe we are "literal" children of the Most High, as in he procreated us. I also don't see that "our potential to become as He is only adds to his glory" as you said. We are the created or the creature while He is the creator. He is so high above us. He is altogether lovely, altogether wonderful and I do not believe we can achieve anything remotely close to what He is. God is the only God there is period.

God is perfect in every way, including his love for us. If God is perfect in his love for us, then he will not keep anything from us, including the chance to be like Him. Otherwise, he is not a perfect God, and does not perfectly love us.

But he does. He loved us so much that he sent his Son, so that we, if we choose it by our faith, can have eternal life (John 3:16). Eternal life, is to know the Father and the Son (John 17:3). To truly know God, is to be like him. That is what Jesus taught:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt. 5:48)

Through the merits of Jesus Christ, all who have ever been born into mortality, will be resurrected. Those who are valiant in their testimonies of Jesus Christ, and have become clean by the blood of the Lamb, will have eternal life. The vast majority of the rest will live forever in lesser glories, and some in no glory.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[WillowTheWhisp]

Would you not question the prophets validity if he told you something that directly contradicted what the Bible says?

I have never known a prophet to directly contradict the Bible. I just can't imagine it happening.

I see God as all those things you listed Z :) I've listed before that the use of "gods" are only used for false gods and not God.

This surely cannot be so for Jesus tells us that we are gods and he surely doesn't mean that we are false gods.

[Shell72]

I have never known a prophet to directly contradict the Bible. I just can't imagine it happening.

].

"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… "

But the Bible says..

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also."

[JohnBirchSociety]

This statement has caused great strife in the days of President Snow. I do feel for this prophet and knowing some of the brethren must have reacted to this statement when it was revealed.

As with any prophet, apostle, or general authority, leaders within the church, when given privy to a unique revelation that is not ordinary and perhaps outside the 'black box', the usual knee jerk reaction of arrogance may surface by others. No matter if you tell them to go and ponder on what is present and ask the spirit yourself, they still spew the usual gibberish nonsense from people claiming to be all knowing. Even our brother and Prophet Joseph Smith had jackals hounding his heal when he present some extraordinary revelation to the membership of the church. My gratitude for these brethren in standing their ground, as I do this to this very day.

Now from President Snow statement, we can learn a great deal on what transpired prior to godhood by our beloved Father. I was reminded of Elder Romney conference talk that talked about receiving knowledge of about the corporal of God;

God the Eternal Father has always been God the Eternal Father. He was never "man". He is the creator of all. All things come from his creative will.

It is almost sickening to observe otherwise, given the absolute nature of scriptural statements that state that GOD has always been GOD.

President Snow and anyone else who thinks otherwise is simply wrong. I'll stand with the scriptures on this.

[JohnBirchSociety]

God was and is still a man- an exalted Man of Holiness. It is also stated in the bible that we are all gods. Whichever way you look at it, we and our Heavenly Father are of the same species. We are literal children of the Most High. Thus we are gods and our Father in Heaven is an exalted Man.

Don't think that this takes away from His glory - it does not in the least. He is all powerful, all wise, all knowing, and all loving. There is no changing that. He has always been and will always be our God. Our potential to become as He is only adds to His glory.

He can be none of those things if ever he was not GOD.

GOD has always been GOD. He is not an exalted man. He is GOD. He didn't become GOD.

All things exist because of him. He doesn't exist because of something...He is the first cause....being eternally so....

The scriptures absolutely refute any idea of an anthropomorphic "God"....

[Vanhin]

God the Eternal Father has always been God the Eternal Father. He was never "man". He is the creator of all. All things come from his creative will.

It is almost sickening to observe otherwise, given the absolute nature of scriptural statements that state that GOD has always been GOD.

I tend to agree. The scriptures at this time do not allow anything else. The same goes for Jesus Christ, by and through whom all things have been created. I won't go as far as to say that President Snow was wrong, however. I think the principle was that God is a Glorified Man, and Jesus Christ is the Son of Man, and that mankind is the same species as God. Therefore our potential is to become like him. To Moses, God revealed:

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. (Moses 1:31-34)

And later:

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ— (D&C 39:1)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

He is not an exalted man

I do take issue with this however. He is indeed an exalted Man.

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time. (Moses 6:57)

But being an exalted Man doesn't take away from the point you are trying to make. He's not an unknowable God, and we were created in his image. He is personal, and he is our Father. He is a Man, he is The Man. :)

Vanhin