Sign in to follow this  
Moksha

Why age limits?

Recommended Posts

Although more of the Saints look like Michael Moore, if they are single they still have needs for affiliation. If they feel more at comfortable in a singles ward, why is that denied to them because of age?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess we are all right in the general sense. The issues involved are quite complex.

When we are very young (say 18-26) looks and apparent level of activity matter very much. As time goes by and we mature in the faith we are presented with the realities and complexity of life, and substance becomes more important.

Most single sisters at age 26 and over will not care that much if a prospect is 34-35 as long as he is a solid, faithful priesthood holder, able and willing to provide a strong foundation to make a family and a home. in such cases I think long range vision and the realities of life plays a more important role.

Do not forget that it works both ways. Younger sisters (18-25) on the average "look" more appealing tom some that those that have crossed that threshold. Genetic selection at its best, I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I the only one who has no desire whatsoever to marry someone older than me? :P

It is best that LDS women hold out for young and handsome Prince Charmings. That way, it creates less of a stress for LDS bachelors. :D

In the meantime, there is still need for involvement for singles members, of all ages, that is not met as well by family wards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although more of the Saints look like Michael Moore, if they are single they still have needs for affiliation. If they feel more at comfortable in a singles ward, why is that denied to them because of age?

Absolutely. If a woman doesn't like the idea of any particular individual showing interest she can just terminate the conversation in a number of ways. And it isn't just age -- some women would feel extremely uncomfortable if someone of a different race was showing interest in them, or someone who is fat, or bald or short, or to tall or whatever. I say leave it up to the people to be able to have a Church-oriented area to mingle and then let people sort it out themselves.

Oh, and I hope you are wrong about more Church members looking like Michael Moore than Chuck Norris. If that is the case you just made a HUGE case for polygamy assuming more females would prefer to mate for good genes than otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grandma' just to say" taste...that is why we have flowers and ice cream..."

You may chose anyone you like, or hope and wait for someone to your liking. Now, life experience and reality will change your mind like nothing else. The fact is that some of my single sister friends that past that threshold would not care much for race or physical attributes as long as they could marry a solid priesthood holder.

Remember, even when we try our hardest we can not maintain the "Abs of Steel" physique you speak of. If physical attribute were the only things that matter in such magnitude I would make a case for euthanizing ALL above 40. Just a thought, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grandma' just to say" taste...that is why we have flowers and ice cream..."

You may chose anyone you like, or hope and wait for someone to your liking. Now, life experience and reality will change your mind like nothing else. The fact is that some of my single sister friends that past that threshold would not care much for race or physical attributes as long as they could marry a solid priesthood holder.

Remember, even when we try our hardest we can not maintain the "Abs of Steel" physique you speak of. If physical attribute were the only things that matter in such magnitude I would make a case for euthanizing ALL above 40. Just a thought, of course.

Hey, not everybody over 40 is out of shape!

Your observation does contain merits. However, I had a single friend who was 34 and had the opportunity to date a very fit guy in his early 50s. She would have nothing to do with it. She's still single.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No Maidservant X : )

Good genes...or healthy reproductive chances? Not sure what the scientific evidence is currently for late fatherhood. Not that I can comment as I'm STILL single LOL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fiannan - that is precisely my point. We place so much emphasis in physical fitness that we forget about the realities of life. I have a friend that is the most amazing girl (of course second to my wife) and she is already 37 and no mate. She said that from age 29 to 34 she had, looking back, very good prospects although they were a few years older. Today she has no prospects at all. Of course, we are not talking about a blob of lard for a prospect. But by far it would not matter much if he or she had a few pounds extra here and there.

It is quite sad, I'd say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and I hope you are wrong about more Church members looking like Michael Moore than Chuck Norris. If that is the case you just made a HUGE case for polygamy assuming more females would prefer to mate for good genes than otherwise.

I’d take a man who looked like Michael Moore any day if he had “polite genes" that did not demean women and make fun of people who are not as svelte as “'Hai Karate' Norris.”

Just sayin',

Elphaba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Xzain

I think (I don't know; I don't know anyone's gender save they make it known through their posts) most of those who have heretofore commented are women- I think that's interesting. Does that speak of a demographic that desperately needs a change in ward regulations?

Being a spry YSA of 20, I personally think the age limit is great as is. Admittedly, my only viewpoint on this is one of inexperience and hormone-crazed logic, so...

However, it sounds like a widespread MSA ward system would do wonders- there's a couple of older guys (30+) in my YSA ward who are just great but feel like there's no one to date or be interested in (in my ward, most of the girls are about 23 or less- the rest recently got married). They would benefit greatly from an MSA ward. Maybe, as the Church expands, we will see it initiated.

I think my divorced mother would do well in a MSA ward- she has a difficult time connecting in her family ward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d take a man who looked like Michael Moore any day if he had “polite genes" that did not demean women and make fun of people who are not as svelte as “'Hai Karate' Norris.”

Just sayin',

Elphaba

Even Chuck Norris does not look like Chuck Norris without the help of a little photoshopping. Besides, like the rest of us he is getting older. We all remember how good Captain James T. Kirk looked in the 60s. He would need spandex outfits nowadays. Fiannan probably has an idea of what an uber stud-muffin should look like in his head, but some years from now he will settle for Kirk's spandex like the rest of us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fiannan - that is precisely my point. We place so much emphasis in physical fitness that we forget about the realities of life. I have a friend that is the most amazing girl (of course second to my wife) and she is already 37 and no mate. She said that from age 29 to 34 she had, looking back, very good prospects although they were a few years older. Today she has no prospects at all. Of course, we are not talking about a blob of lard for a prospect. But by far it would not matter much if he or she had a few pounds extra here and there.

It is quite sad, I'd say.

Yet my point in physical fitness is that if a young woman is looking at getting serious with a guy who is, let's say, 20years or more older than she is then she should take his health into account -- although in my opinion if she is attracted to such a guy he probably already demonstrates youthful looks and vitality. I remember reading something about a famous actor who is considerably older than his wife saying he took staying in shape more seriously upon having kids as an older man since he wanted to be able to keep up with the young guys potential when playing with his youngsters. Chances are that if an older guy stays fit he will live longer.

So one might ask, if longevity is a concern in regards to marriage and age, would a woman in, let's say, her mid 20s be better off marrying a fat guy more her age or a fit guy in his mid 40s? Probably be around the same amount of time. So why not expose all our singles to each other and let the buyer decide? Islander, maybe if your friend had had this attitude she would be married with kids now. However, that's up to her which is exactly what a non-segregatory singles program would foster -- choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This whole thread kind of depresses me.

Why are we referring to people 30 years old as middle aged? Worse yet, why is 26 considered a 'limbo' age or over the hill for women?

I'm 24 (and married since I was 20) but in the big bad 'real world' 26 is an AVERAGE age a woman gets married. She is still considered young. Maybe this bugs me because I am nearly 26 and if I WAS in YSA would I feel pressured to get married in the next two years....or bust?

I guess I didn't know it was quite so bad. I'm a convert to the church, and have spent all of my life in areas of the world that aren't predominantly LDS.

I didn't like YSA....I was soooo excited to get there the whole time I was in YW but once I got there I felt suffocated by RMs trying to date me and talk about marriage...when I was 18 and 19!! I know, I know, I did end up married at 20, but still.....

I just don't like to think of poor LDS members being made to feel OLD at 30!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fiannan,

While this is not the case one hundred percent of the time, the majority of your posts about relationships always focus on the physical, and are rarely, if ever, about the emotional aspect of a relationship.

I would rather be with an unattractive man who cherished me, respected me, loved being around me, really listened to me, and focused on our relationship with no concern for looks, to the point he would leave me based only on that.

My own experiences with “love,” especially when I was young, were always based on the man’s being attractive, and to my dismay, usually nothing more. Additionally, he was only proud of me when he got to show me off to his friends. Other than that I could have been a potted plant.

I had two men of real substance fall in love with me “back then,” One went to West Point and the other to MIT. I only mention that so you can understand how brilliant both of them were.

But I felt no attraction to either one, and left them behind. One of them was an especially good man, no, he was an exemplary human being, and I still regret not giving that relationship a chance.

When I was younger, my many girlfriends felt the same. Of course, they still fell for the charismatic, yet shallow men, and after a year or so, left in disgust. This is not true of all of them, but it was for a number of them--including myself.

Yes, attraction is a huge part of the origin of a relationship. But if he is gorgeous, but self-absorbed, self-righteous and a narcissist, I would no longer have any interest in such a man. It took me decades to understand this, and it really is too late now because of a number of factors, including illness.

Compatibility is more than surface looks. It is not always about how in shape the man is, if he is virile, if he has abs of steel, or if he drives a nice car and has a lot of money, etc. If he continues to focus on those things to the exclusion of other personality traits needed to make a relationship work, I would no longer have any interest in such a man.

For example, if I were able to choose a mate today, he would have to make me belly laugh. No exceptions.

Elphaba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to note a couple of things that came to my mind -- and which are just additional thoughts, not particularly meant to refute or confirm what anyone else has said thus far.

Having MSA wards cannot be supported across the church, in my opinion. Not that there can't be more of them, but . . . I just don't know how that would go worldwide, and in areas where people are already traveling far to their branch for family ward. Also, I'm single, but I have six children . . . I'm not going to an MSA branch without my children because they will be in the auxiliaries unless I want to go to church twice (which I could). So can we say that my "needs" aren't going to be met in a family ward OR an MSA ward? Well, I wouldn't because I feel fine where I'm at (in our family ward) as far as friendship and church participation, I can only speak for myself. If I concentrate on the marriage prospects angle (most often, but not always, a mistake IMO) then being in a/this family ward -- nil.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up -- I don't know if this is really in the mind of Heavenly Father or the Church -- it may just be in my mind -- but the age division also tends to support the concept -- not 100 percent, but what is more likely -- of the younger people finding people to be sealed to (for the first time) -- to make covenants, initiate a family, get started on this grand gospel and life adventure. It's not really about how attractive you might be to where you should be agewise. But once you get into your 30s, the likelihood arises that you have been divorced or widowed -- and already sealed -- that is a different challenge. Not that people in different life places can't marry -- but I think YSA is not just about marrying, but marrying in the right place, at the right time, to the right person. In some of my other threads I do imply that Middle Single Adults is so amazing precisely because the parameters of our "singlehood" is so different from one individual to the next, because life has been lived for a decade or more and we have ended up in places we never thought we'd be in when we were 21.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This whole thread kind of depresses me.

Why are we referring to people 30 years old as middle aged? Worse yet, why is 26 considered a 'limbo' age or over the hill for women?

I'm 24 (and married since I was 20) but in the big bad 'real world' 26 is an AVERAGE age a woman gets married. She is still considered young. Maybe this bugs me because I am nearly 26 and if I WAS in YSA would I feel pressured to get married in the next two years....or bust?

I guess I didn't know it was quite so bad. I'm a convert to the church, and have spent all of my life in areas of the world that aren't predominantly LDS.

I didn't like YSA....I was soooo excited to get there the whole time I was in YW but once I got there I felt suffocated by RMs trying to date me and talk about marriage...when I was 18 and 19!! I know, I know, I did end up married at 20, but still.....

I just don't like to think of poor LDS members being made to feel OLD at 30!!

This just happens to be an aspect of LDS culture, like it or not. And the age segregation that exists in the singles program merely facilitates this.

Also, Elphaba, the reason I brought up a lot about physical health is due to the fact that the ONLY legitimate gripe about people dating others who are significantly older than they are is the longevity issue. So I pointed out that a man who is fat and in his mid-20s (and can go to the young singles events) will probably have the same number of potential years left on him (in this life) as a guy in his mid-40s who is in great physical shape (yet is not allowed to particiapte in the younger singles programs).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing that hasn't been brought up -- I don't know if this is really in the mind of Heavenly Father or the Church -- it may just be in my mind -- but the age division also tends to support the concept -- not 100 percent, but what is more likely -- of the younger people finding people to be sealed to (for the first time) -- to make covenants, initiate a family, get started on this grand gospel and life adventure. It's not really about how attractive you might be to where you should be agewise. But once you get into your 30s, the likelihood arises that you have been divorced or widowed -- and already sealed -- that is a different challenge. Not that people in different life places can't marry -- but I think YSA is not just about marrying, but marrying in the right place, at the right time, to the right person. In some of my other threads I do imply that Middle Single Adults is so amazing precisely because the parameters of our "singlehood" is so different from one individual to the next, because life has been lived for a decade or more and we have ended up in places we never thought we'd be in when we were 21.

In the real world people are going to meet people with a variety of different life experiences. Few of us fit the cookie-cutter ideal of the Church (members expectations) so the idea that our singles program should try to segregate and direct members just goes against reality.

Also, just using your logic, one would think that two young people are more compatable than a couple where one person is significantly different in age. I seriously don't believe that. What if the female has had so many "life experiences" that she doesn't relate to the young guys in the least? What if a guy likes older women? The current system doesn't allow for this choice. People can be older chronologically but younger in life attitude and visa versa. If age were the only thing we should consider then maybe we should segregate all wards based on age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was precisely my point a few posts ago. When we are young, looks matter because that is all we know. As time goes by, the reality of life and the complexities of relationships point to depth and character as clearly more important traits than just looks.

There is really nothing new there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest pinkiwikisses

I'm 19 and I sometimes go to the Singles Branch, but I just feel out of place there and stick to my home ward. I also know most of the people there anyways. I think I only know like two people in the Singles Branch. So it's a hard adjustment.

Anyways, I just thought I'd put my two sense in here. Enjoy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read a web article that said that people between 20-25 feel they are in limbo, they are not adolescents any more, but they feel they are not adults yet. I think that this feeling is increased in the LDS faith even more when we are being judged unfairly by how old, or more correctly, how young we get married. I also see that there is tremendous pressure to get married fast, I keep hearing about people that get married after knowing each other for only a few weeks, which would scare most anyone (myself included). In the ‘outside world’ I here people being boyfriend-girlfriend for two-three, or more YEARS and still consider it a short amount of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read a web article that said that people between 20-25 feel they are in limbo, they are not adolescents any more, but they feel they are not adults yet. I think that this feeling is increased in the LDS faith even more when we are being judged unfairly by how old, or more correctly, how young we get married. I also see that there is tremendous pressure to get married fast, I keep hearing about people that get married after knowing each other for only a few weeks, which would scare most anyone (myself included). In the ‘outside world’ I here people being boyfriend-girlfriend for two-three, or more YEARS and still consider it a short amount of time.

I have to agree to a degree but believe that people will live up to the expectations we set for them. An 18 year old American in 1950, a 16 year old FLDS female or a 18 year old male or female from Afghanistan is probably far more "mature" and ready to face life's challenges than a typical American middle class or upper middle class 18 year old white male or female from either Orange County, California or New York City. I would hope that the spoiled young people of today suffering from "Peter Pan Syndrome" don't make up a major portion of our LDS population, although the emphasis on trying to be part of the mainstream society has probably corrupted many today even in our ranks.

Here's an interesting article on the topic of young people not being treated with the respect they used to get:

Psychology Today: Trashing Teens

Also, you might find the artidle "A Nation of Wimps" (just google it) interesting as well.

When one reaches the legal age of maturity they should be treated as such. Which just got me to thinking, in Iraq there are marines who are 18 fighting along side marines in their 30s and 40s. Each are expected to exhibit the same maturity and skills and most are equals to each other in all but experience. Seems strange to segregate acording to age in our Church programs, doesn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since we place a great value in honoring our covenants with God, chastity before marriage and total and complete fidelity during marriage. Postponing it for YEARS is the fastest way to sexual indiscretion, sin and transgression of Go's commandments.

There is no need to date for years. A few 8-12 months and solemn prayer should suffice. That is why dating should not be a past time or casual activity. We must pursue education and service opportunities while seriously considering and pondering marriage prospects. It is the most serious subject and good preparation should start with studying what the prophets of this dispensation have said on the subject. Getting a PhD is easy in comparison to finding your eternal companion and holding on to him/her forever. For that most of us have very little training.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just read this whole thread, and it's so interesting. Specially so to see the different challenges we face in different parts of the world. Here we don't have such things as singles wards (there's on YSA ward in london) and the numbers are so few, to be honest, so called family wards would fold without the service they get from singles.

I have a visitor from the US staying with me, and at church yesterday she couldn't believe the number of single mums in our ward. I couldn't believe we had a YMan passing the Sacrament- he was visiting too. that's the first Aaronic priesthood holder we've had in our ward for over a year. Challenges are different for us all.

I've always been anti age limits, but I see why they have them. My take is: if we mixed and socialised in the pre-existence on the basis of like mindedness, and if age won't exist in the eternities, why do we judge so much on the basis of age here? Who's to say my eternal companion and I didn't get separated in the wait in the queue down here (or maybe he was late or went to help someone or something?!)

I have faith all will be sorted eventually, but sometimes I wonder if man (citing convenience) makes it harder for us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a few years, our ward had a singles sunday school class. I'm 31, still single, and most of them were around 18. I was glad when the class died off, when over a few weeks, almost every one left for school, jobs or other stuff.

I actually have a huge gripe at the way the segregation takes place. I have known men in their early 30s who are recent converts or divorced. They show up to a singles activity and the women there are all the ages of their mothers and commenting on how their kids are the same age as him. Needless to say they never return.

My solution? Obolish the age segregation completely.

You post a nice example of why we NEED segregation. Why combine them if they'll never return after being commented on by older singles on how their kids are the same age as them!!

Ok so I went to my first Single Adult fireside. Well..... I can't actually say that I went. I showed up and looked in the chapel and all I saw was grey and white hair. I immediately did an about face and took off. I am freaking 34.

And that's another example why age segregation is good!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this