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Moksha

Why age limits?

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For a few years, our ward has a singles sunday school class. I'm 31, still single, and most of them were around 18. I was glad when the class died off, when over a few weeks, almost every one left for school, jobs or other stuff.

Why?

You post a nice example of why we NEED segregation. Why combine them if they'll never return after being commented on by older singles on how their kids are the same age as them!!

If you have all singles together you'll have large numbers of all ages so you (if you are 35 or 18) won't get these comments.

And that's another example why age segregation is good!

I think you miss the point -- a 30-something male is going to quit going to singles events if they aren't going to meet women in their marriagable age group. So more than likely they will meet non-members of that age grouping. Females who are in their late 20s are going to feel like there are no guys their age who are interested in them in the under-30 group so they too will quit and probably wind up married to non-members.

Simple demographic facts.

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I understand some singles attend, not so much to look for dates, but rather to avoid that left out feeling that they get from family wards. To them, a feeling of inclusiveness and general wellbeing at Church is important.

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I am in a singles ward and I think that there are age limits because that way they can find more things in common with one another and usually in within 10 years or so. But if it had a 20 years or 30 years then they wouldnt be able to relate with one another as much. Does that make any sense?

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I have to admit - I was one of those converts who joined the church at the ripe old age of 26 almost five years ago and I found it weird.

Everyone in the YSA area was married by the age of 21-23 and the vast majority are in a different part of their life. Dating became far too strange for me within the church, so I turned outside of it. The average person outside the church gets married at 31. Inside the church, it's more like 20 for females and 23 for males. I still have an active social life and I still date, but unless I want to date a 19 year old or someone who has already been divorced and has kids and baggage that I don't have(Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not a spot where I'm at in my life) I'm stuck looking outside the church.

It is what it is. I accept that.

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Just chiming in.. my gf says she feels really old in "mormon years". She's 21 in feb. Says there is unbelievable pressure to get married and to have children..

Is it really as bad as she claims? She'll have to wait at least another year regardless. :lol:

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Just chiming in.. my gf says she feels really old in "mormon years". -:lol:

I know the ratio of dog to human years is 7 to 1. Could we assume that the ratio of mormon years to regular years is perhaps 3.2 to 1?

:huh:

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I am in a singles ward and I think that there are age limits because that way they can find more things in common with one another and usually in within 10 years or so. But if it had a 20 years or 30 years then they wouldnt be able to relate with one another as much. Does that make any sense?

I really think it depends on the person -- age is not really the main determination of marital compatibility in my opinion. Yes, many people psychologically age (this has nothing to do with maturity) as time progresses due to conforming to societal norms. Some people give up challenging physical activity after high school and may become the kind of person who sees a walk in the park, listening to music from their era, and if they do go to the beach take a quick dip and then sit in the sun as fun. Such a person may be only 25 but they are basically acting more middle age -- and will probably not change much as time goes on.

On the other hand there are people who at 40 take up wind surfing, go to metal concerts, and do things like hiking the Pacific Crest Trail from beginning to end on their vacation.

Now TYPICALLY, which person here should be dating people their own age and which should be aiming towards any age but likely will be dating people in their 20s?

If a 40 year old man like I have described winds up in a divorce and is looking to remarry will he find someone in the Church if he conforms to the traditional singles program? Probably not. Óutside the Church I do see many more people where there are significant age differences and perhaps this is due to the current singles program coupled with the average Mormon's fear of breaking societal norms. I think this does us more harm than good.

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On the other hand there are people who at 40 take up wind surfing, go to metal concerts, and do things like hiking the Pacific Crest Trail from beginning to end on their vacation.

Now TYPICALLY, which person here should be dating people their own age and which should be aiming towards any age but likely will be dating people in their 20s?

If a 40 year old man like I have described winds up in a divorce and is looking to remarry will he find someone in the Church if he conforms to the traditional singles program? Probably not. Óutside the Church I do see many more people where there are significant age differences and perhaps this is due to the current singles program coupled with the average Mormon's fear of breaking societal norms. I think this does us more harm than good.

Although there may be some validity to your position, I think it is not wise to try and parallel the broad social environment with the culture of the church. Out there people do ALL kinds of things, and engage in behavior that is very secular in nature in pursue of self gratification and "fulfillment". At the end we all know the statistics and I suggest that the realities of life dictate by far what we do and how we should conduct ourself although some ignore it for their own purposes.

Your theorized divorced 40-year old man, assuming that his contribution to that situation was somewhat limited, should be more concerned with trying to care for his children and truly trying to gain insight into the issues that led to his divorce. I doubt very much that he would have much in common with 20-some girls from an LDS singles ward. I also suggest there is something seriously wrong with him if he has the desire to date girls his daughter's age.

Divorce is real, painful and brings a level of complexity to all parties involved for which none are prepared. It is disruptive to the point where some never recover or can truly restore the previous peace and rhythm of their lives. I doubt "reinventing" oneself at 40 thru "activities" has any real value if what we are trying to do is to regain our footing in the Gospel and hold on to our covenant.

Just a few thoughts.

Edited by Islander

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Hi Islander,

I'd like to point out that you are very right. A 40 year old divorcee with kids is very different than, say, a 31 year old who has never been married. I can tell you that, when I joined the church at 26, I broke off a long term relationship with a girl that had said she never wanted to join the church. As it went on, I realized that most girls my age were married and well on their way to being a parent. I've mostly dated outside the church, simply because the options to date aren't here. However, this has led to some situations because the expectation of women outside the church is very different to those inside the church. This has led to me avoiding dating. I've got lots I can do, now, so it's no big deal.

Ultimately, you're right: People who are 18 are at a very different stage, generally, than someone who has a job and is on their way in life. What's the answer? I don't know.

So I guess the moral is 'Flirt to convert'? ;)

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We've got a guy in our ward, an investigator aged 36, he attended our 1st Single Adult Fireside with me and another male from our ward last night, unfortunately it was very poorly attended, I found that some of the wards in our stake do not have single adult reps. yet, which isn't very helpful..he was the youngest of the group who attended last night and this morning he texted me to say that he no longer wanted to attend our Church activities/Single Adult events as he feels he's always gonna be the youngest person attending and he's interested in dating women in their late 20's rather than 31+..he is attracted to some of the younger end YSA women, but as they're only aged around 19 he doesn't think it right to pursue them..I have noticed that he is going off these women's looks rather than trying to get to know them first and find out if they are suitably matched that way..he also seems to want to find an LDS girlfriend before he gets Baptised as he thinks that she would help him live the Mormon lifestyle more easily...I have told him not to join the church just for a woman, but to make sure he's really into the church itself.

In our ward there are only around 4 YSA, they are all aged under 20 so there is nobody locally for this man to consider as a potential girlfriend at the moment...he feels the SA programme should be aimed at people aged from 18-80 and should just allow people to pick and choose their partners from any age group they feel attracted to..I tend to agree that there should be a larger SA group, say from 18-60 and that those aged 61+ could be classed as Senior Single Adults as generally their needs differ from those below that age?

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I don't know how I feel about that, Pushka. A lot of investigators go inactive in their first year. I -hate- the idea of someone joining the church because they want to meet someone who is marriage minded and then dragging them through the hell of marrying someone who isn't faithful.

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Although there may be some validity to your position, I think it is not wise to try and parallel the broad social environment with the culture of the church. Out there people do ALL kinds of things, and engage in behavior that is very secular in nature in pursue of self gratification and "fulfillment". At the end we all know the statistics and I suggest that the realities of life dictate by far what we do and how we should conduct ourself although some ignore it for their own purposes.

If you check the ages of several of Brigham Young's wives you will see that they were 18, 19 or 20ish when they married him and he was in his 40s and early 50s. Seems like it isn't a secular thing to marry people who are not your age after all. People love the message in the Book of Ruth and it centers around the eventual marriage of a much, much older man and a younger women.

Age isn't a factor -- life goals are. If the 40-somethng year old male wants to have children and isn't just looking for a trophy wife then all the power to him -- if he meets a 19 or 20 yera old and hits it off it may work out better than if the 19 or 20 year old marries someone her age. You can never tell. If they have the same interests and the same goals and the same spiritual outlook then go for it.

Your theorized divorced 40-year old man, assuming that his contribution to that situation was somewhat limited, should be more concerned with trying to care for his children and truly trying to gain insight into the issues that led to his divorce. I doubt very much that he would have much in common with 20-some girls from an LDS singles ward. I also suggest there is something seriously wrong with him if he has the desire to date girls his daughter's age.

That's not what the Church says. I have known men in that situation and their bishops have called them in and told them the most important thing they can do for themselves, their children and their spirituality is to get out there and find a new wife. I knew one guy in his late 30s with 4 kids and his bishop suggested he attend BYU summer classes to meet some college girl and get married.

And again, it's not fair to judge people and how they will hit it off. I am certainly not in the market but have found that there is a certain type of woman (generally more mature, centered on family goals and non-conformist) who prefers older males. Seems to be what one comes across in reading about attraction as well. Yes, many young LDS women are bubble-headed, immature materialists but many others are not. Often these females get tired of the immaturity of LDS college/singles activites and wind up married to non-member guys they meet in out-of-church activites.

:)So Pushka, tell your bashful 36 year old to stop being discriminatory and if he finds some 19 year old in your ward attractive then ask her out. That's only a 15 year difference. That's my advice if he and her are compatable in all the important things.

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We've got a guy in our ward, an investigator aged 36, he attended our 1st Single Adult Fireside with me and another male from our ward last night, unfortunately it was very poorly attended, I found that some of the wards in our stake do not have single adult reps. yet, which isn't very helpful..he was the youngest of the group who attended last night and this morning he texted me to say that he no longer wanted to attend our Church activities/Single Adult events as he feels he's always gonna be the youngest person attending and he's interested in dating women in their late 20's rather than 31+..he is attracted to some of the younger end YSA women, but as they're only aged around 19 he doesn't think it right to pursue them..I have noticed that he is going off these women's looks rather than trying to get to know them first and find out if they are suitably matched that way..he also seems to want to find an LDS girlfriend before he gets Baptised as he thinks that she would help him live the Mormon lifestyle more easily...I have told him not to join the church just for a woman, but to make sure he's really into the church itself.

In our ward there are only around 4 YSA, they are all aged under 20 so there is nobody locally for this man to consider as a potential girlfriend at the moment...he feels the SA programme should be aimed at people aged from 18-80 and should just allow people to pick and choose their partners from any age group they feel attracted to..I tend to agree that there should be a larger SA group, say from 18-60 and that those aged 61+ could be classed as Senior Single Adults as generally their needs differ from those below that age?

I think the guys has issues. These are huge red flags and my bet is that he is looking into the church for the wrong reasons. In some circles (I have non-member friends) it is believe that the YSA wards are "chick hatcheries" and that the girls are vulnerable because of the perceived pressure to marry.

I am not sure what his history is but the fact that he is looking so hard so fast does not look very good. I guess time will tell but I would not hold my breath.

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Thanks for your replies..I've spoken to the guy again tonight, I don't think he was really looking for a serious partner until the Missionaries started putting pressure on him to change his lifestyle, drop his current drinking friends, and get Baptised asap..he has admitted that he enjoys his current lifestyle, he wanted to attend the LDS church because the people he met there seemed to be less judgmental and more honest than his family and current friends, however he now feels that the Missionaries are pushing him to find a good Mormon girl to date, so that he has a reason to give up drinking and smoking and having one night stands..he says the drinking and smoking is easy for him to cope with, not the one night stands..at least he's being honest with me...I don't think he's ready to join the church myself, and have told him so, he's afraid of admitting this to the Missionaries because he does enjoy the church generally, but now that the Single Adult programme is getting going again, he wants to be mixing with the age group he feels most comfortable with rather than with people older than himself..he's been fellowshipped by an older couple, in their late 50's/60's who are quite devout, and dare I say it, old fashioned, and he's beginning to feel that just visiting them isn't enough..he's afraid that the Missionaries will try to stop him from speaking to me, or seeing me if he admits that he's discussed not yet being ready to be Baptised, that maybe they'll think that either I'm not a good influence on him because I'm not pressing him to just pray and read his scriptures in order to get a testimony, or that they'll be afraid that he is a bad influence on me as a new member of the church myself..

Anyway, I'm sorry, I've taken this discussion off topic I think! I've told the guy to start mixing with the younger married couples in the church, late twenties/early thirties, so that he will widen his group of friends, perhaps make friends with people nearer his own age group in other wards, and just get to feeling more at ease with the church in general once he feels he has a peer group with which to mix..maybe then he will think more seriously about the spiritual side of his commitment..I did say that a lot would be expected of him as a Priesthood holder, that being baptised wasn't a decision to be taken lightly, and that he would have to respect any LDS woman that he might date...I certainly wouldn't like him to marry into the church and then possibly drag them thru a bad relationship either...I wouldn't recommend he try to find a girlfriend in the church until he'd already joined and was certain that he really wanted to be LDS...thanks again for your advice everybody!!

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Seemed to have worked for this couple:

In early-1974, he was introduced to 17-year-old fan Wende Braunberger at a theatre performance, later marrying that same year on October 4, 1974 with Star Trek actor William Campbell serving as best man.[17] Doohan and Braunberger had three children: Eric, Thomas, and Sarah (Sarah was born in 2000, when Doohan was 80 years old.)

James Montgomery Doohan: James Doohan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doohan (Scotty from Star Trek) was born in 1920 so he was 54 when he met his wife -- and was a divorced man. If he died in 2005 that means his marriage lasted 31 years -- pretty good by today's standards.

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Doohan was married three times. He had four children, Larkin, Deirdre, and twins Christopher and Montgomery, with first wife Janet Young before a 1964 divorce. His marriage to Anita Yagel from 1967 to 1972 produced no children. In early-1974, he was introduced to 17-year-old fan Wende Braunberger at a theatre performance, later marrying that same year on October 4, 1974 with Star Trek actor William Campbell serving as best man.[17] Doohan and Braunberger had three children: Eric, Thomas, and Sarah (Sarah was born in 2000, when Doohan was 80 years old.)

James Doohan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doohan (Scotty from Star Trek) was born in 1920 so he would have been 54 when he met his wife, who was then 17. They seem to have been married for 31 years when he died -- that's pretty good by today's standards.

I give this example to show that age should not matter. If a man is 30-something or even 40-something and is physically active and lives the word of wisdom he might even outlive a 20-something who, while not using tobacco or alcohol, doesn't keep physically fit.

So do I believe it's okay for a woman who is close to 20 to date a man 20 or more years older than her? Yes, if they have the same interests and spiritual base and he is into starting a new family.

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A person's maturity and personality is what makes them who they are. Maybe there would be an early 20 or under 20 girl who would not make you feel old if you talked with them. Age segregation is kind of silly, but it has its good points. However, if people are living the gospel, they wouldn't need to be too concerned with age segregation with the purpose of keeping really old people and young people apart. We can learn a great deal by mixing a group of people with a wider range of ages. Think of how much we learn from the eldely. If the only purpose of a singles ward, or a singles activity is to get people to meet and get married, then that might be a little different. Not everybody--even in this church--has the same opinion of how an individual should be "courted." I for one believe in building friendships and getting to know people.

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James Doohan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doohan (Scotty from Star Trek) was born in 1920 so he would have been 54 when he met his wife, who was then 17. They seem to have been married for 31 years when he died -- that's pretty good by today's standards.

I give this example to show that age should not matter. If a man is 30-something or even 40-something and is physically active and lives the word of wisdom he might even outlive a 20-something who, while not using tobacco or alcohol, doesn't keep physically fit.

So do I believe it's okay for a woman who is close to 20 to date a man 20 or more years older than her? Yes, if they have the same interests and spiritual base and he is into starting a new family.

Fiannan? James Doohan was a saint. And I don't mean a latter-day saint. He was kind, generous, intelligent and helpful. He didn't go -looking- for a young bride. It just happened.

The problem is that many older guys -try- to date young women because they think they can control them. They feel safer around them than they do older women.

I, personally, dated a 30 year old when I was 20. It was a fantastic relationship. I agree that age doesn't matter, but we should protect those that need it from those who -are- predatorial.

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The problem is that many older guys -try- to date young women because they think they can control them. They feel safer around them than they do older women.

I, personally, dated a 30 year old when I was 20. It was a fantastic relationship. I agree that age doesn't matter, but we should protect those that need it from those who -are- predatorial.

And for every one of the guys you mention there's a gold-digging young materialist motivated either by the financial security of an older man or being able to share in his status.

Yet I personally have never been known either of these two extremes. Sorry, guess I may not really get around.

I have known LDS men who were from divorce situations who wanted to date younger women because they wanted to be able to start a new family -- is that predatorial? I have also known men who related better to younger women because their interests were more of a younger nature -- the men were mature in all respects, but their lifestyle would scare off most women their age but be quite appealing to the younger set. Is that wrong?

You will get far better marriages if the two people are of the same faith. The current singles segregation only protects younger LDS people from interaction with older LDS single people which can cause both to wind up interacting romantically with non-members.

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many older guys -try- to date young women because they think they can control them. They feel safer around them than they do older women.

Do you have any evidence of this, or is it merely your conjecture?

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hehehehe....Isn't that what we do constantly? Inference. I guess people do it out of habit in order to explain what happens and what we see around us.

There may be some truth in the "...try to control them" but I doubt it applies to "most".

Again, that is just also my ...perception/opinion/conjecture?

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Doohan (Scotty from Star Trek) was born in 1920 so he would have been 54 when he met his wife, who was then 17. They seem to have been married for 31 years when he died -- that's pretty good by today's standards.

I give this example to show that age should not matter. If a man is 30-something or even 40-something and is physically active and lives the word of wisdom he might even outlive a 20-something who, while not using tobacco or alcohol, doesn't keep physically fit.

Not only that, but if he were Vulcan and age 70, he may even outlast a 14 year old wife. Especially if he kept the Word of Wisdom and went easy on the mind melds.

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