Are there any youth leaders here?

[aruth5000]

If the activity had taken place in the chapel and finding their way from room to room I wouldn't have queried it. It was the fact that they took them, blindfolded, in cars to another town 20-30 minutes drive away and parents were not even informed of where they were which first concerned me. I have checked the handbook and it does say that for any activity away from the chapel parental consent forms must be obtained. Also you tend not to hurt yourself as much falling inside the chapel as you do slipping off the edge of a pavement outside.

I'm really struggling with this now since the Youth meeting tonight. The YWP phoned here before they left and spoke to my older daughter who relayed the question 'is it OK for them to play football tonight?' I answered (and apparently she could hear me speak to my daughter and so said afterwards she didn't need to speak to me personally) and said that the older one could play if she wanted to but the younger one had better not do so because of her ankle injury. I didn't want her to aggravate it as she is still limping slightly. Then they both went off to Youth in a taxi. (I don't drive and my husband wasn't home from work and the chapel is about 5 miles away.)

The next thing I knew was that a member of the Bishopric brought my younger daughter home in tears and told me that because she was not playing football she should not be there. For a child already wavering on the edge of a very small testimony this has pushed her over the edge and she doesn't want to go back to church again because she feels unwanted. I can't say I blame her. It gets worse because my older daughter didn't actually play football either but she was allowed to sit on the sidelines and watch. Why couldn't my younger daughter have done the same? Apparently because I had 'given permission' for my older daughter to be there but not for my younger daughter. This 'given permission' was apparently the YWP overhearing me speaking to my daughter when she was on the phone.

Why couldn't she have said at that point that my younger daughter should remain at home? Apparently when they arrived at the chapel her reaction to the poor girl was "What are you doing here?" Well she won't have to wonder that in future because my daughter has decided she doesn't want to go again as she is unwanted and uncared about. I can understand why she feels that way.

Quite apart from the fact that the handbook doesn't say permission is required for activities held at the chapel just overhearing a conversation can hardly be classed as obtaining permission anyway! Now the YWP has sent home 2 consent forms to cover ALL the activities for the coming month (one form per child rather than the stipulated one form per child per activity off premises.) There is only one off premises activity and the only information I've been given about that is "Treasure hunt in the woods" - which woods? where?

It just feels like this is being done to be spiteful to me and my daughter because I queried something which hadn't been done according to instructions.

In total contrast to this a counsellor on the YWP came up to me on Sunday and asked how my daughter's ankle was and expressed her regret that the accident had happened.

Incidentally it is also expressly forbidden for a teenage girl to travel alone in a car with a man she is not related to isn't it? But that didn't stop a member of the Bishopric bringing her home last night because she wasn't welcome at Youth.

As I said, I'm really struggling to cope with this myself and I understand my daughter not wanting to go again because right now I don't particularly want to be there either.

wow ya my mom wouldnt be to happy if my leaders did that

[WillowTheWhisp]

This whole thing has got far worse than I realised now. Last night my older daughter discovered that her younger sister had started self harming following being brought home from Youth on Tuesday and then last night another one of the young women told me that the YWP had said to the Young Women that I had forbidden my daughter to be there and that was why she was taken home. Apparently when my girls got to the chapel the YWP had said to the younger one "What are you doing here?" My daughters didn't tell me it had been said like that.

I hadn't 'forbidden' anything. All I had said was that it was not sensible for her to play football because of her ankle injury. Surely that's only logical? I am thoroughly confused as to why this should mean that she could not even be there and watch the ones who were playing or take part in the spiritual side of things. My older daughter decided off her own bat that she didn't want to play football but she was allowed to stay and watch. I can't see the difference.

The young woman who came here last night also told me that the YWP not being at church on Sunday was my fault because I had upset her and yet on Sunday her counsellor told me that she'd gone away for the weekend. I don't know why she would be upset enough not to come to church simply by a parent asking that they be informed in future if children are being taken anywhere. I do know that on the Tuesday evening she kept asking me "What are you really saying?" and I had replied that I was really saying what I was actually saying - that it was church policy to get a parental consent form to take the girls off premises and please could she do that in future. She was obviously reading more into this than that but even when she asked me point blank I told her that all I was asking for was to be informed in future if they were going to be elsewhere and if they were going to be late. That does not seem unreasonable. Then I also said that if they had been blindfolded indoors then there would have been less chance of an accident. This was by way of a recommendation for consideration for possible future activities. I did not say "You have hurt my child and I blame you." which I think she was hearing but which I took great pains to point out I was NOT saying. I was merely trying to suggest avoiding possible future accidents. There are many things in Church building which are dangerous and I have pointed those out to people in the past too - things like sharp corners on chalk ledges beneath blackboards where nursery children could bang their faces. Perhaps it isn't any of my business but when I see a potential danger I feel I should mention it. And yes of course I was upset that my daughter was hurt. Isn't it only natural for a mother to be upset when their child is hurt? I'm even more upset that she is now self harming and doesn't want to go to church because she feels unwanted.

I had actually gone looking for the YWP at church because I wanted to talk about it again because it had been impossible to do so the night of the injury as she was hearing things I wasn't saying, and the counsellor agreed that it would be a good idea. She told me however that the YWP had gone away for the weekend. Now I don't know what to believe. However, I was so touched by the kindness and thoughtfulness of the counsellor whose first words had been to ask how my daughter was and to express regret that she'd been injured. My older daughter told me that this counsellor also seemed baffled on Tuesday night of this week that the younger girl had been sent home.

I'm really having a hard time coping with this and knowing what to do next. The Bishop was in agreement with the YWP that my daughter should be brought home so I can't even talk to him about it because he sees me as being in the wrong. I just feel like the Ward leaders don't want our family there and are trying their very best to drive us away but I don't understand why. I am really trying hard to make sense of this but I can't.

I have been feeling so bad about it and trying to understand what I have done wrong and why I am at fault for simply asking that the youth leaders comply with church policy to inform us in advance when children are being taken away from the church premises and to obtain prior consent to do so. This has become so petty now on the part of the YWP that she has sent an irrelevant parental consent for home to cover the rest of the month - just one form to cover several activities which is itself a bit odd and not what the instruction manual says to do. What happens if there is only one activity which a parent wouldn't consent to - the poor child then has to miss out on all of them! But the reason I said this consent form is irrelevant is because it is about activities on church premises (example 'writing to inactives' and 'understanding missionary roles' for which quite clearly parental consent is not required as they do not involve taking the children off the premises) which just leaves me feeling that she is doing this to spite me and to turn other parents against me because when they ask why they have to fill in all this stuff they will be told it is because I said it was required. It's just twisting things to make me look bad. Was I wrong to ask to be informed when they go off premises? Should I have kept quiet and just left it?

But there is an example of silver linings even in the midst of this very, very dark cloud. I had planned to go to the temple tomorrow with friends. I was telling my non-member husband that I feel so bad about this whole business that I don't think I should go to the temple. He said, "Go. I really think you should go." I was afraid that all of this trouble would have turned him more against the church but he is the one encouraging me to be strong and to go to the temple because he thinks I'll benefit from it.

[Iggy]

Willow, your husband is a gem.

Personally I think it is time for you to make an appointment with your Stake President. When you call to make your appointment let it be known that you want your Bishop and the YWPres there at the same time.

This needs to be aired out in front of him- with all party's there. OR you can do this with the Bishop and the YWPres first and then if you feel nothing has been cleared up, go to the Stake Pres and tell him everything. Let him know that you wish for the Bishop and the YWPres to be there also so that they both know you are not going behind their backs.

You might also consider going to the Stake YW President and finding out from her directly what the Stakes policy is regarding taking the youth out on car trips without the approval of parents.

If it was me, I would have my lawyer contact the Bishop regarding your daughters hurt ankle. Sending him a letter to the fact that basic laws were transgressed might smarten him up a bit. Nothing like the threat of a justifiable court case against him, the YW Presidency and the Church to get them all to comply with the Church's policies.

[Hemidakota]

At this point, I agree with Iggy. Willow, it is also time to take this to the Lord in fasting and prayer.

[WillowTheWhisp]

If it was me, I would have my lawyer contact the Bishop regarding your daughters hurt ankle. Sending him a letter to the fact that basic laws were transgressed might smarten him up a bit. Nothing like the threat of a justifiable court case against him, the YW Presidency and the Church to get them all to comply with the Church's policies.

I've certainly no intention of doing something like this. I don't want to sue anybody or to threaten anybody. This is not what I want at all. All I want is to know where my kids are when I think they're at the chapel and they turn out to have been taken elsewhere.

It's gone from bad to worse. The Bishopric and YWP have now gone to the opposite extreme of requiring parental consent for every youth activity in advance even ones at the chapel such as writing letters to missionaries! I've just had a letter from the YWP which says if they don't receive written consent for a child to participate in any activity then that child will be taken home - how on earth is that going to fit in with 'invite your friends to Mutual'? And it's all going to be blamed on me for asking them simply to follow written down church guidelines on prior notification when they are going to take children off premises.

I must be wrong but I always thought that the Tuesday meetings were more about fellowship and friendship than about football and orienteering. I thought the activity was a means to an end and not an end in itself. I thought they were supposed to be inclusive not exclusive. I don't understand why a child who cannot play football due to an ankle injury should be forbidden to watch and to enjoy the company of the rest of the youth.

It feels like I am being ganged up on and I don't seem to have one single ally. I did go to the temple yesterday and as I was waiting in the chapel for one session to start I was reading Joseph Smith History and one part really touched me where he described the various ministers condemnation when he tried to tell them of his vision. He reported how the very people who he would have expected to support him and help him (ie supposed men of God) were the ones who reviled him. He was just a few months older than my daughter at the time and it feels like she is being reviled by the very people who should be supporting and helping her. I was comforted a little by this. I got comfort from knowing that at least he knows how she feels.

I still feel alienated from our Ward though and I feel like this has been taken to extremes and taken out of context and out of proportion.

All I asked was that Church policy be complied with. Now I am feeling like the wicked witch of the west for suggesting such a thing and for causing all this added inconvenience, which is not what I was asking for at all.

I've tried to contact someone at Stake level to talk about this but so far not been able to speak to anyone. Our SP is a barrister and very clever with words. I fear he'll just run rings around me and confuse me. Maybe my kids and I should just leave the church. I don't think I can cope with this any more.

[WillowTheWhisp]

At this point, I agree with Iggy. Willow, it is also time to take this to the Lord in fasting and prayer.

Thanks Hemi, I really am trying but I feel like the opposition is a lot stronger than I am.

[Jenamarie]

Thanks Hemi, I really am trying but I feel like the opposition is a lot stronger than I am.

I'm so sorry this is going in such a crummy direction for your family Willow. What the heck is the YWP thinking?? Sounds like she's got some pride issues going on. The way you described the purpose of mutual night is *exactly* what it's supposed to be! It's supposed to provide a "safe place" for LDS youth to get to know eachother, away from the pressures of school and family.

I would hang on tighter than ever to what you know to be true, and be an example to your daughter that the Gospel is true, no matter how poorly those who believe in it may act. Don't force her to any activities, but attend church with her (maybe leaving before YW's if she feels uncomfortable) and read your scriptures and pray. Remove yourself as much as you can from the stressful sitation (the current YW's program in your ward) but not from the church. IMO, that would do more dammage in the long run to your daughter's testimony than what the YWP is doing.

[WillowTheWhisp]

She doesn't want to go to church Jenamarie. She feels like they all (Bishopric and youth leaders) don't want her specifically. Her older sister was allowed to remain and watch the football when she personally didn't want to play and the week before when they were blindfolded the older sister was again allowed to stay but accompany them unblindfolded. She wasn't sent home. I still can't understand why my youngest daughter was sent home and I can understand how unwanted this makes her feel. Yet each time I try to sort it out things just seem to get worse to the point of this letter now from the YWP which amounts to nobody being welcome at youth nights without a prior written consent form from the parents.

I wasn't trying to start a war. Just asking to know where my children are but it's all got way out of proportion.

As my daughter doesn't want to go I am not going to force her because that will only get a more negative reaction. She has decide to stop paying her tithing because she says she no longer wants a temple recommend.

I don't know if you're right about pride but it certainly does feel like that, the way she has gone overboard with this consent form thing - but I'm being treated with "Well you got what you wanted." but this isn't what I wanted.

The night my daughter came home unable to walk with the ankle injury and I said I should have been told in advance where they were going the YWP kept asking "What are you really saying?" and I told her that what I was really saying was what I was actually saying but she just kept repeating "What are you really saying?". I think she was hearing things I didn't say and then reporting those things back to the Bishopric. I have no idea what has been said in Ward Council because no-one has told me. I feel like the victim of a lynch mob and I have no idea what I've done wrong. I just want to cry now. My daughter had a shaky testimony with all the struggles she was going through with bullying at school and other personal problems. Then the place where she should have been getting some spiritual comfort has turned on her. I feel like it's my fault too for the hurt she is feeling because if I hadn't made a fuss about not knowing where she was that night then none of this would have happened. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. If the Bishopric and YWP didn't feel it was necessary to inform parents then maybe I shouldn't have brought up the subject.

I've caused my daughter to be turned away from Youth and to start self harming again and not to want to go to church any more. How much worse can it get?

I wish she would study the scriptures with me but she won't and she won't even ask a blessing on food now. She doesn't believe anyone is listening. This is the child who, as a toddler, once muttered her nighttime prayers and I said "I couldn't hear what you were saying." and she replied, "It's OK Mum. That doesn't matter. I wasn't talking to you." or the 7 year old who, when her Dad died, said she knew he'd be doing missionary work in the spirit world and 'sorting that lot out' for not accepting the gospel on earth!

[siempre]

It could get a lot worse, Willow.

As a recent "lost sheep" brought back into the fold, I can tell you all the sorts of horrible things us youth can get our hands into. Personally, I admire the fact that you're willing to go to bat for your daughter. Many parents would not possess that kind of courage. I'm actually surprised that more parents within the ward have not expressed concern themselves.

The fact that she was injured on the youth leaders watch, and then ostracized because of that injury speaks that there's some sort of personal feelings going on. As for the "What are you really saying" deal.. well, perhaps she feels like you're "questioning her authority" or something like that. I really hope your Bishop is kind and understanding.

How are the youth of the ward treating her? When I fell away, the thing that got me back was a twice weekly phone call from another Laurel asking me about my week and inviting me to church and mutual for the week. I hope they are supportive of her.

I'm sure the Lord will provide a way, Willow. He sees your daughters suffering just as you do and I can't imagine that He would allow that to continue without some relief on your end.

[WillowTheWhisp]

We are a very small ward by US standards and we only have a few young women, 3 are from one family. She is more friendly with one of the other girls but she herself is semi-active and has problems of her own which I can't go into here. I hope the others will keep in touch and be supportive but I'm sure they won't want to be seen as not supporting their youth leaders.

I was just thinking of a friend of mine about 20 years ago who had a son with ADD and learning difficulties. He was never still and quiet during sacrament meeting but instead of anyone offering to help her by taking the child to a quiet room once in a while so she could enjoy the meeting she was told not to bring him any more, to find a babysitter so that she could come to church without him. Amazingly that sister is still active despite all that she has gone through. I really admire her strength. I'm not sure I can be as strong as that.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I just thought I'd update you all with the story so far.

I was able to speak to the Stake YWP today at Stake Conference and was more than a little surprised to learn that she does not think that consent forms are necessary when youth are taken on activities away from church premises. I said I had read it online and she cautioned me to be careful what I read online as there are so many sites with incorrect information. I did explain that although I'd asked on here I had also searched on lds.org and finally found the handbook instructions which mention the consent forms. She says that no ward in our stake uses them and she's not aware of any other stake using them.

However, she did say that as a mother she feels that she ought to know where her children are and wouldn't like it if they were taken away from where she thought they were and she wasn't told.

I'm not sure where she stands on the subject of children not being welcome at Youth if they are not going to do the activity. She said the Bishop has final say on that so I suppose if he's decided that is how it will be from now on, then that is how it will be, but I think that is such a shame as it's going to exclude children from getting to know each other and getting close and fellowshipping each other.

Personally I'm not sure what if anything can be done to encourage my daughter to go back to church or to any youth activity now. I'm afraid of losing her eternally but I don't know what to do about it. I'm also afraid of her hurting herself or worse.

[BenRaines]

The consent forms are on the lds.org site under YM and YW. We use them for any activity outside our stake. Not for when we leave the building but for anything where we travel outside the stake.

Ben Raines

[WillowTheWhisp]

It seems there are different interpretations for their use then. I understood it to mean they were for use when children were taken away from the location where parents expected them to be.

Referring back to the Bruce R. McConkie thread I wonder now if perhaps it is my sin for expecting this when I shouldn't have queried the decision of the youth leaders in our ward not to use these forms.

I become more confused and this leads me then to question the church because "My house is a house of order saith the Lord" and all I seem to find in this is more and more confusion.

I am going to have to struggle to come to terms with myself and try to understand my failings in this now.

[Hemidakota]

Going back to your reading of Joseph Smith in the Temple, Joseph's greatest enemy was within the church vice those without. Those apostates caused more problem to the church as it was with the Nephites.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm really struggling to understand this as it all seemed perfectly clear and logical to me. The instructions say that if a child is taken elsewhere then consent should be obtained in advance. Our Stake leaders don't seem to think it is necessary and they are apparently not the only ones according to BenRaines. I can't understand why Stake boundaries are relevant.

If my daughter is taken 30 miles away I still don't know where she is any less than if she is taken 40 miles away. She is still not at the chapel where she was left and where we thought she would be to collect again at the appropriate time.

If my failing to accept this is a sin on my part then I'm afraid I shall remain a sinner.

[Hemidakota]

Are you saying that the Stake Presidency does not endorse consent forms at all when the youth is not on chapel grounds for an activity?

[WillowTheWhisp]

The Stake Young Women's President says she has never known them to be used before in any stake. I have known them to be used in our stake but that was before she was SYWP. She just agreed that it would be courteous to let parents know where their children are, but not a requirement.

[siempre]

That doesn't seem right to me. Instinctively. Parents have a right to know when their children are being taken off campus, formally or informally. How difficult would it have been to just make an announcement in Relief Society and/or Priesthood, so that no one felt any concern?

Forms may not have been necessary, but letting parents know where their children are being taken seems to be the only correct thing to do. I can't believe your SYWP is not more supportive. Have you spoken to your Bishop yet?

[WillowTheWhisp]

The SYWP did agree that it would be courteous to let parents know. There are not actually many young women in our ward and it only involves a few families so it could easily have been done with a phone call. They often phone when they wanted the girls to bring something at short notice.

No, I haven't seen the Bishop yet. I expect I will be told on Sunday when he is available to speak to.

What concerns me most now is the consequences of my daughter being brought home the following Tuesday and not being allowed to stay at Youth. She still doesn't want to have anything to do with the church and refuses to go to the meeting tomorrow, which is understandable. She feels like they don't want her and she doesn't want to go and be sent away again. Bust she doesn't want to pray or ask a blessing on food, or pay her tithing or have Family Home Evening. In fact she doesn't want anything which has anything to do with the Church. It should have been her family Home Evening tonight. We take turns to plan one. But tonight all she wanted to do was make cookies and watch a DVD. No singing, no praying, no spiritual stuff.

The Tuesday she was brought home unwanted was far more hurtful to her than the previous Tuesday when she was physically injured. The physical injury is healed now. The emotional one isn't.

[LDSgirl]

It's not the church, but a few poor leaders. I will pray that things improve for you. Jenni

[WillowTheWhisp]

Thank you Jenni. Please just pray that my daughter can fight her way through without harming herself any more this and will eventually want to come back to church.

[steffy101]

hi willow..I know i"m a few days late on this .and I didn't read ALL the threads.But if I understand you right someone brough your daughter home because of you questioning the sywp?I am in yw pres. in my ward and I am appaled at the things that your yw president has said and done.The only thing that matters or should matter to the yw leaders is first and foremost the safety of each girl and secondly the spiritual growth of each of these daughters of our Heavenly Father.I'm so sorry that your daughter is having such a tough time.it is so important to keep our youth active in church and by loving them and letting them know that they are loved is how we do this.