How to test a prophet

[VisionOfLehi]

1) A true prophet does not lie. His predictions will be fulfilled.

...

etc.

I didn't want to take up space quoting the whole thing, but this is in direct reply to the entire first post.

GREAT REFERENCES! That sounds exactly like Thomas S. Monson to me, and like Gordon B. Hinckley, and Joseph Smith Jr.

But I'm confused... You're giving me evidence of the Prophet of the Lord, the current President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...

Are you also believing this same thing?

[skalenfehl]

Joseph Smith's calling to restore Christ's church and to be our prophet does not contradict any of those items on your list. lostnfound, which particular post about Joseph Smith and polygamy prompted this thread? Regardless we believe that a prophet or any man must be called of God by prophesy and by the laying on of hands by those in authority. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God as were others like Isaiah, Moses and Noah. This thread seems to tread close to accusing Joseph Smith of not being a prophet which is a core part of our beliefs.

[Finrock]

The reason you are to test the prophets is to know if what comes out of their mouth is coming from God or not. There are many false prophets and that includes today. The scriptures that were written then are to be applied just as much today.

Evening lostnfound!

Thanks for letting me know what your point was. I appreciate you taking the time.

I hear you, lostnfound (meaning I agree with the principle you are speaking to). God has warned us and given us counsel to beware so we are not deceived. Even when we feel we have personal revelation, we must be careful that it is in compliance with revealed scripture, both modern and ancient. I have no problem with testing anything. However, I do not think that the list you provide is necessarily authoritative. What I mean, is that although the list you have isn't bad, not all of the scriptures used seem to be specific criteria on how to judge a prophet. This is what I was asking with my other question a couple of posts ago. I'll try to rephrase it here, since you asked me to. Some of the scriptures you use to support your list do not speak about prophets at all. They are general guidance on how everyone should live their life. My question is, if they are general guidance on how everyone should live, how do they apply to the test of judging if a prophet is a true prophet or not? Let me give an analogy in case it helps to make my point clearer.

Suppose I wanted to judge who is a fireman. Here is a hypothetical list I could come up with:

1. A fireman works for the fire department.

2. A fireman puts out fires.

3. A fireman is hired by the city or township to be a fireman

4. A fireman gets trained in a fireman school.

5. People should brush their teeth every night.

1-4 seem to be relevant and speak specifically of what a fireman is. 5 is good counsel, but doesn't speak to being a fireman at all. One would wonder what does 5 have to do with judging who is a fireman. The same applies to some of the scriptures you have to support your list. They are good scripture, but one wonders how they apply to testing a prophet.

Please, if you do not mind answering, I would close this post with one more question: Is it your position then that Joseph Smith or other LDS prophets are somehow invalidated because the facts in the list you have provided would preclude them from being true prophets?

Regards,

Finrock

[lostnfound]

He even goes to the point of letting another man marry her to cover up the fact that they were married. My family is reading the Old Testament together and we're halfway through. Back then, I guess guys would kill each other to get their wives, so it was safer for them to pretend they weren't married. Abraham was actually telling a half-truth, if I recall correctly. Sarah was his half-sister, but he was trying to deceive others, pretending they weren't married. Then Jacob lies about the same thing. He says that his wife is his sister and others figure it out when they see them "sporting" with each other. I think the women went along with it because they didn't especially care to have their husbands killed.

But they lied.

Wasn't there also an example of Ezekiel lying?

okay wait a min I knew this happened..but what I was saying was where is their an example of a prophet proclaiming something as coming from God and it not being 100 percent correct? Don't give me example where they lied or decieved and not prophesing.

[Guest User-Removed]

lostandfound....

YES or NO...You believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet?

[skalenfehl]

lostandfound....

YES or NO...You believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet?

I think there's a difference between being a blatant anti-Mormon and sharing personal opinions. I'm speaking from a neutral stance here. Being one doesn't necessarily mean you're not the other. There are folks who don't subscribe to our beliefs but are not anti either.

I won't fault lostnfound for not believing our faith or Joseph Smith. But I am keeping an eye out for crossing over the anti line. As long as the discussion remains objective I see no problem. I am curious, too, however, to hear lostnfound's reply to this question.

[Guest User-Removed]

I think there's a difference between being a blatant anti-Mormon and sharing personal opinions. I'm speaking from a neutral stance here. Being one doesn't necessarily mean you're not the other. There are folks who don't subscribe to our beliefs but are not anti either.

I won't fault lostnfound for not believing our faith or Joseph Smith. But I am keeping an eye out for crossing over the anti line. As long as the discussion remains objective I see no problem. I am curious, too, however, to hear lostnfound's reply to this question.

I'm sorry...I didn't know that one of the "powers" folks have as Mods...are to answer questions for other people???

Please, allow lostandfound the courtesy of responding to questions directed at him/her.

I would never imagine an intstance where someone would ask you a question, that I'd jump in an answer for you.

Thank you for this common courtesy....

[prisonchaplain]

I would never imagine an intstance where someone would ask you a question, that I'd jump in an answer for you.

Thank you for this common courtesy....

Then let me enlighten you as to when such a situation might arise. If a poster were to question the fairness of the moderating at a site such as LDSnet, and do so in an open-ended way, not towards a named moderator, then an explanation of how moderators in general handle such things might be offered by ANY moderator.

BTW, as an explanation of nettiquette, if you have a personal question to an individual moderator, and you want only that person to answer, you might consider private message or email, rather than calling them out in public forum. Just a thought.

[lostnfound]

lostandfound....

YES or NO...You believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet?

Sorry, I was away from my computer for a day. If I believed he was true prophet don't ya think I would be a mormon? But that is another day another time discussion. This thread is just looking at the verses that show how to test a prophet.

[lostnfound]

Can someone educate me please on an example where a prophet lied when giving a prophesy? :)

ohh and just so everybody knows. I am not going to condemn you for your beliefs on joseph smith but if you want to compare these scriputure verses to joseph smith that is okay by me..but you can also look at other false prophets of the day as well if you want.

I just wanted to hear everyones opinion and read what everyone thinks,.

[Guest User-Removed]

Then let me enlighten you as to when such a situation might arise. If a poster were to question the fairness of the moderating at a site such as LDSnet, and do so in an open-ended way, not towards a named moderator, then an explanation of how moderators in general handle such things might be offered by ANY moderator.:

Hmmmmm...Do we now have folks being vicariously offended?

[prisonchaplain]

Hmmmmm...Do we now have folks being vicariously offended?

I hope not.

[Guest Seraphim]

I'm sorry...I didn't know that one of the "powers" folks have as Mods...are to answer questions for other people???

Please, allow lostandfound the courtesy of responding to questions directed at him/her.

I would never imagine an intstance where someone would ask you a question, that I'd jump in an answer for you.

Thank you for this common courtesy....

You are already on the verge of being banned for breaking rules repeatedly. Our moderators express opinions in threads as other posters do and they enforce the rules. Do not derail this thread with criticism towards others.

Seraphim

[lostnfound]

Evening lostnfound!

Thanks for letting me know what your point was. I appreciate you taking the time.

I hear you, lostnfound (meaning I agree with the principle you are speaking to). God has warned us and given us counsel to beware so we are not deceived. Even when we feel we have personal revelation, we must be careful that it is in compliance with revealed scripture, both modern and ancient. I have no problem with testing anything. However, I do not think that the list you provide is necessarily authoritative. What I mean, is that although the list you have isn't bad, not all of the scriptures used seem to be specific criteria on how to judge a prophet. This is what I was asking with my other question a couple of posts ago. I'll try to rephrase it here, since you asked me to. Some of the scriptures you use to support your list do not speak about prophets at all. They are general guidance on how everyone should live their life. My question is, if they are general guidance on how everyone should live, how do they apply to the test of judging if a prophet is a true prophet or not? Let me give an analogy in case it helps to make my point clearer.

Suppose I wanted to judge who is a fireman. Here is a hypothetical list I could come up with:

1. A fireman works for the fire department.

2. A fireman puts out fires.

3. A fireman is hired by the city or township to be a fireman

4. A fireman gets trained in a fireman school.

5. People should brush their teeth every night.

1-4 seem to be relevant and speak specifically of what a fireman is. 5 is good counsel, but doesn't speak to being a fireman at all. One would wonder what does 5 have to do with judging who is a fireman. The same applies to some of the scriptures you have to support your list. They are good scripture, but one wonders how they apply to testing a prophet.

Please, if you do not mind answering, I would close this post with one more question: Is it your position then that Joseph Smith or other LDS prophets are somehow invalidated because the facts in the list you have provided would preclude them from being true prophets?

Regards,

Finrock

hi finrock..Thank you for being so personable first off.

Which scripture verses were a general application in your opinion? then I can look at those closely?

[prisonchaplain]

Can someone educate me please on an example where a prophet lied when giving a prophesy? :)

ohh and just so everybody knows. I am not going to condemn you for your beliefs on joseph smith but if you want to compare these scriputure verses to joseph smith that is okay by me..but you can also look at other false prophets of the day as well if you want.

I just wanted to hear everyones opinion and read what everyone thinks,.

I'm not LDS, and I know the example I'm about to give is not exactly within the perameters you've set, but it is related. Abraham intentionally lied about his wife--telling those he encountered that she was his sister. He did it for a reason (fear), but wow! If I was so fearful of traveling in an area that I would subject my wife to rape, then what kind of man am I. And yet, God does not chastise him, and the episodes make mention in Scripture. Yet, I'm also certain God did not want him to do that. So, he lied. He was wrong. Yet, his place of honor as Father of the Jewish people, and us, by adoption, is secure.

The are other instances where prophets have intentionally given a false prophetic word to wicked leaders. In one case, the king replied, [my paraphrase] "Quit it. Tell it to me straight." The prophet then replies, "Okay...you're gonna lose, God will bring you bad things."

Of course, none of these incidences justifies a prophet who lies or who uses sarcasm towards enemies...but prophets, like priests, bishops, etc., are flawed. Also, just because their flaws appear in Scripture does not mean that God endorses those flaws.

[lostnfound]

I'm not LDS, and I know the example I'm about to give is not exactly within the perameters you've set, but it is related. Abraham intentionally lied about his wife--telling those he encountered that she was his sister. He did it for a reason (fear), but wow! If I was so fearful of traveling in an area that I would subject my wife to rape, then what kind of man am I. And yet, God does not chastise him, and the episodes make mention in Scripture. Yet, I'm also certain God did not want him to do that. So, he lied. He was wrong. Yet, his place of honor as Father of the Jewish people, and us, by adoption, is secure.

The are other instances where prophets have intentionally given a false prophetic word to wicked leaders. In one case, the king replied, [my paraphrase] "Quit it. Tell it to me straight." The prophet then replies, "Okay...you're gonna lose, God will bring you bad things."

Of course, none of these incidences justifies a prophet who lies or who uses sarcasm towards enemies...but prophets, like priests, bishops, etc., are flawed. Also, just because their flaws appear in Scripture does not mean that God endorses those flaws.

I already know about abraham but that is not a good example in my opinion because he is not speaking prophecy to the people in that example. I want an example where a prophet was speaking prophecy and the prophecy did not come true...and he was a true prophet.

[lostnfound]

FOXNews.com - Ex-Follower of New Mexico Apocalyptic Church: Leader Sought Seven Virgins - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

is this guy a true prophet? Why or why not?

[Vanhin]

It's a little difficult to know what or if any of the ancient prophets made false prophecies. We don't have all the words they ever spoke, nor all the things that were ever written about them. All we have are those prophecies that were included in the collection of scriptures we now have.

Some prophecies of the ancients may seemed to have failed, when in fact we simply lack understanding.

Take God, who spoke to Adam, the first prophet of this world, and said: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ". But we know Adam lived to be 930 years! Was this a failed prophecy on God's part? Of course not. How long is a day to God? So, in this case we lack understanding.

Sometimes they were meant for a later time, or to be understood more broadly. Take the following promise made to Isaac (Abraham and Jacob as well).

"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 26:4)

Some contend that this is failed because the Jews have always been a small group. What is often not understood is that this promise is being fulfilled today. First, Judah (and the greater part of Benjamin) is not the only tribe of Israel. The remaining 10 tribes are scattered throughout the world, and will be literally gathered again. This promise is also part of the New and Everlasting Covenant, and it is being propagated throughout the world as the true Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught by our missionaries. Those who join the Church are adopted into the house of Israel (if they are not already by blood), and all the nations will be blessed by the Gospel.

Some prophecies are conditional. Meaning they are fulfilled according to our righteousness. We are promised over and over again in the Book of Mormon, that if the inhabitants of the Americas are righteous, they will prosper, and if they are wicked they will be destroyed.

All the prophecies made by Joseph Smith, as found in the scriptures (The Standard Works) will be fulfilled if they haven't already. The Word of Wisdom is a great example. The Lord gave us the Word of Wisdom because of "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days". That's a prophecy come true, and those who obey the Word of Wisdom are blessed with freedom from the addictions that are all around us today.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts.

Regards,

Vanhin

[pam]

The reason you are to test the prophets is to know if what comes out of their mouth is coming from God or not. There are many false prophets and that includes today. The scriptures that were written then are to be applied just as much today.

I was speaking of the Prophets that lead the church in the latter days. Men such as President Monson, President Hinckley and on down the line. Heavenly Father has promised that he will not allow a prophet to lead the people or the church astray.

[skalenfehl]

I'm sorry...I didn't know that one of the "powers" folks have as Mods...are to answer questions for other people???

Please, allow lostandfound the courtesy of responding to questions directed at him/her.

I would never imagine an intstance where someone would ask you a question, that I'd jump in an answer for you.

Thank you for this common courtesy....

My reply to you was in reference to your previous post:

How long must we tolerate this Anti codswallop....Hmmmm...where's that mod soooo quick to silence Latter Day Saints on other threads...yet so silent when it comes to the enemies of the Prophet Joseph????

Since you referenced a moderator in general terms instead of directly approaching him/her, I took it upon myself to address it. For all I know you were referring to me. Hence my reply to you regarding lostnfound's posts. I'm not sure what you were expecting with your first post, if not silence from "that mod."

[lostnfound]

It's a little difficult to know what or if any of the ancient prophets made false prophecies. We don't have all the words they ever spoke, nor all the things that were ever written about them. All we have are those prophecies that were included in the collection of scriptures we now have.

Some prophecies of the ancients may seemed to have failed, when in fact we simply lack understanding.

Take God, who spoke to Adam, the first prophet of this world, and said: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ". But we know Adam lived to be 930 years! Was this a failed prophecy on God's part? Of course not. How long is a day to God? So, in this case we lack understanding.

Sometimes they were meant for a later time, or to be understood more broadly. Take the following promise made to Isaac (Abraham and Jacob as well).

"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 26:4)

Some contend that this is failed because the Jews have always been a small group. What is often not understood is that this promise is being fulfilled today. First, Judah (and the greater part of Benjamin) is not the only tribe of Israel. The remaining 10 tribes are scattered throughout the world, and will be literally gathered again. This promise is also part of the New and Everlasting Covenant, and it is being propagated throughout the world as the true Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught by our missionaries. Those who join the Church are adopted into the house of Israel (if they are not already by blood), and all the nations will be blessed by the Gospel.

Some prophecies are conditional. Meaning they are fulfilled according to our righteousness. We are promised over and over again in the Book of Mormon, that if the inhabitants of the Americas are righteous, they will prosper, and if they are wicked they will be destroyed.

All the prophecies made by Joseph Smith, as found in the scriptures (The Standard Works) will be fulfilled if they haven't already. The Word of Wisdom is a great example. The Lord gave us the Word of Wisdom because of "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days". That's a prophecy come true, and those who obey the Word of Wisdom are blessed with freedom from the addictions that are all around us today.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts.

Regards,

Vanhin

You brought up two interesting prophecies..Adam for example. That prophecy happened right away. What happened to Adam was not a physical death but a spiritual one. Sin seperates us from God and that is exactly what happened the moment adam sinned and the penality for sin is death..So God took care of that right away when he covered them with the animal skin. The first by the way killing. Sin had not entered the scene until then..and then God showed adam a foreshadowing of what Jesus would fulfill at the cross on that very day...

As far as the other prophecy..His seed was multiplied and scattered and yes those prophecies concerning israel are still coming true today as God is bringing them back to their homeland as we speak...

What prophecies did Joseph say would happen that have not happen yet..that you believe will happen?

and one more question.a few posts ago I mentioned an article about a prophet..does anybody have anythoughts as to why or why not that guy is a false or true prophet?

[lostnfound]

I was speaking of the Prophets that lead the church in the latter days. Men such as President Monson, President Hinckley and on down the line. Heavenly Father has promised that he will not allow a prophet to lead the people or the church astray.

a little confused here..there will be many false prophets in the latter day. And guess what we are living in the latter days.

[skalenfehl]

I find it interesting that it doesn't say "there will be many prophets, or many true prophets," only "many false prophets". If we are to be warned, why not just warn us of prophets if Christ never intended on calling true prophets? Indeed there are false prophets at large, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be a true and just prophet. Else we would have been warned of prophets, period.

[Vanhin]

You brought up two interesting prophecies..Adam for example. That prophecy happened right away. What happened to Adam was not a physical death but a spiritual one. Sin seperates us from God and that is exactly what happened the moment adam sinned and the penality for sin is death..So God took care of that right away when he covered them with the animal skin. The first by the way killing. Sin had not entered the scene until then..and then God showed adam a foreshadowing of what Jesus would fulfill at the cross on that very day...

I agree with you. Sin separates us from God, and is spiritual death. Which is further evidence the point I was making. It also brought about physical death. These two deaths were overcome by the atonement of Jesus Christ. The forgiveness of sin was made possible and the resurrection of the dead made universally available to all.

As far as the other prophecy..His seed was multiplied and scattered and yes those prophecies concerning israel are still coming true today as God is bringing them back to their homeland as we speak...

That is true; we believe in the literal gathering of Israel. There is also a spiritual aspect to that one as well. So, another case in point. There are those who think that promise was a failed prophecy. But you and I know it is not.

What prophecies did Joseph say would happen that have not happen yet..that you believe will happen?

Lots, but if it's in our Standard Works, it will. Here's one:

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. (AoF 1:10)

and one more question.a few posts ago I mentioned an article about a prophet..does anybody have anythoughts as to why or why not that guy is a false or true prophet?

He is not. Mainly because he is not authorized and does not have the keys of the priesthood. If he did, we would know about it, because we are the Church of Jesus Christ. We would have sustained him in a solemn assembly like we did President Monson.

Regards,

Vanhin

[prisonchaplain]

I already know about abraham but that is not a good example in my opinion because he is not speaking prophecy to the people in that example. I want an example where a prophet was speaking prophecy and the prophecy did not come true...and he was a true prophet.

The one example given to me was Jonah, who prophesied that Ninevah would be destroyed. He offered no "unless you repent..."

However, when a prophet warns of judgment, it seems reasonable to always hope that repentance can offer hope.