HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 SkalenFehi Do you deny Matt 5 as lostnfound notated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalenfehl Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 SkalenFehiDo you deny Matt 5 as lostnfound notated?Where did she notate it? I need to see the context of her post. But I do believe that Christ preached His sermon on the Mount and that its teachings replaced and transcended some aspects of the Law of Moses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostnfound Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 1. Cain became Master Mahan and perdition (Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive "no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).Moses 5Moses 5Moses 52. Moses killed an Egyptian who was smiting a Hebrew slave, but Moses also became called of God to lead Israelites out of bondage. In my opinion there is a difference between murder and killing someone in defense. Throughout the scriptures people were commanded to kill others or were preserved while killing others in battle (David and Goliath)3. David sent Uriah to his death and he is paying the price for it. I believe we've already discussed his fate in the other thread.4. I have not murdered anyone. Clearly murder is the taking of another's life in cold blood and no restitution can be made. Finally as mentioned in the other thread, by Vanhin, if I remember correctly is that we are required to forgive others but God will forgive whom He will forgive.skanfel...you are brave in answering my question..:) thank you first for taking the time to tackle it. Nobody else has so far. which is why I should just do a thread on it all by itself..in order to explain away this..one has to add to the scriptures ...2nd thing is you said you have not murdered anyone? Right? Well the bible states in matt that you have ever been angry with a brother you have commited murder in your heart..Have you ever been angry with a brother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalenfehl Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 I know that in verse 22 we'll be in danger of judgment but I'm still looking for the verse that says we're committing murder in our hearts. Apologies, I'm still mastering the Bible. Please cite the verse. I'm still trying to find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 LF, there is no bravery here when you clearly do not understand the scriptures very well. Call it discernment of the spirit. He is well versed in the scriptures well beyond both you. As he already stated, whether you accept that answer or not, is left to you to make your own assumption. Now, calling Moses a murder is showing some pure ignorance of the Old Testament and the Laws abiding of that era. Not wasting any more energy in such, from other threads, it was answered. Hizwife, you are better off learning the basics of gospel. It seems from here, cutting and pasting scriptures, not knowing what the author is presenting is fruitless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalenfehl Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Sorry if this was answered already...but can someone tell me why murder is not forgiven in lds?Vanhin already answered you.It's important that you do forgive. Which, by the way, is one more thing that a person has to do to be saved (in addition to just belief). The Savior taught it plainly when he said:For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt. 6:14-15) And in this our dispensation the Lord said:Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (D&C 64:9-10)The Lord will forgive murderers, but not the ones who murder after having been enlightened and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 6:4-6). Murder at that point constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. That's what we are talking about.Cain, for instance, became such a son of perdition. He talked with God, and knew what was right, and then he shed innocent blood.The scriptures acknowledge that murderers can be forgiven, we're not saying that. Take for instance a group of Lamanites from the Book of Mormon who had murdered and done all manner of evil. They repented and were baptized, and God forgave them their sins. As a result, they made a covenant to never shed blood again, and that they would rather die than shed blood. Here is what they did:Oh, how merciful is our God! And now behold, since it has been as much as we could do to get our stains taken away from us, and our swords are made bright, let us hide them away that they may be kept bright, as a testimony to our God at the last day, or at the day that we shall be brought to stand before him to be judged, that we have not stained our swords in the blood of our brethren since he imparted his word unto us and has made us clean thereby. (Alma 24:15)They buried their weapons in the ground, as we later read, and when their enemies came upon them, they fell upon their knees and were slain while praying. This they did rather than risk commiting murder again.Sincerely,Vanhin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 skalenfehl.......... 1 John 3:15 KJV 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seraphim Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 skalenfehl.......... 1 John 3:15 KJV 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him We would love to have you share your beliefs, but the Mormon bashing needs to stop. We also welcome sincere questions about our beliefs.Seraphim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIRDpersonviewer Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 The words of Elder McConkie:Murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them.(Matt 12:31-32; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.356-357) After they have paid the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to the telestial inheritance. (Rev 22:15)This taken from the exercpt in "Mormon Doctrine," entitled Murderers.So you are right, the grace covers all. However, what we talk about is the Celestial Kingdom. That is where we live with our Heavenly Father again. All those references to faith and works, are the qualifications necessary to accept the full Atoning Sacrifice. Accepting the full Sacrifice equates with accepting the gift of Eternal Life, or Life with our Heavenly Father. You have to understand the plan of salvation and how it works, to understand what we are talking about in its proper context. Plan of Salvation This link is just the first part, just go down the left side of the page and that will at least give a basic understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 We would love to have you share your beliefs, but the Mormon bashing needs to stop. We also welcome sincere questions about our beliefs.Seraphim--------------------------------------------------------------------------------From Skalen:I know that in verse 22 we'll be in danger of judgment but I'm still looking for the verse that says we're committing murder in our hearts. Apologies, I'm still mastering the Bible. Please cite the verse. I'm still trying to find it. 1 John 3:15 KJV 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himSeraphimSkalen asked for the scripture so I gave it to him.... That is not bashing whatsoever. He said he had not mastered the bible, nor have I.....So I knew and provided it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 the grace covers all. However.......................... If grace covers All, there cannot be a HOWEVER.Grace does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seraphim Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------From Skalen:I know that in verse 22 we'll be in danger of judgment but I'm still looking for the verse that says we're committing murder in our hearts. Apologies, I'm still mastering the Bible. Please cite the verse. I'm still trying to find it. 1 John 3:15 KJV 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himSeraphimSkalen asked for the scripture so I gave it to him.... That is not bashing whatsoever. He said he had not mastered the bible, nor have I.....So I knew and provided it to him. I am referring to many of your posts.Seraphim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIRDpersonviewer Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 the grace covers all. However.......................... If grace covers All, there cannot be a HOWEVER.Grace does.Did you go to my link and look at the Plan of Salvation. That is why there is a however. We have different beliefs of what heaven is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 On this site I have been condemned to hell by one of your own. I am wanting to learn more of why LDS believe they way they do......I am very curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 If one could view the Celestial Glory for ten-minutes, it would fill up the Congressional Library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finrock Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 skanfel...you are brave in answering my question..:) thank you first for taking the time to tackle it. Nobody else has so far. which is why I should just do a thread on it all by itself..Good afternoon lostnfound and as well Hizwife!From reading some of your responses it appears that there is a misunderstanding going on in regards to this point of doctrine. First, let me point out that Vanhin, at least, has answered your questions in regards to this matter. I point Vanhin's post out because it describes very concisely your concern dealing with murderers and are they forgiven. If I may, I would like to reiterate what Vanhin posted in hopes of making sure you recognize that your points have been addressed.It is not categorically true that LDS believe that murders can not be forgiven. This is the misunderstanding that both of you seem to be stumbling on. Below is the position that is being postulated by the LDS members here. I have separted it from the rest of the text and placed it in bold letters so that it does not get lost in the text. Hopefully this will allow you to see it and comprehend the position better.The position is succincly this: Most people can be forgiven for murder. Some people can not be forgiven for murder. The following are conditions which would prevent some people from being forgiven for murder (they are numbered only for convienience and legibility):1. If a person has received a witness of God and his gospel through the Holy Ghost...2. If a person has been baptized...3. If a person has received the New and Everlasting covenant...4. If a person knows the truth pertaining to God and his gospel......then, if that person murders, they can not be forgiven, because they have committed the unpardonable sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.All other murderers canbe forgiven if they repent and apply the atonement of Jesus Christ.This comes down to a difference between those who knowingly and openly rebel against God having a sure knowledge of His existence and his laws, versus those who have never received a witness nor do they have a sure knowledge of God's existence and his laws.Thank you for your time and I hope that this post has been helpful in answering your questions.Regards,Finrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Ok thanks FINOCK ....... We are making progress...... Can I ask another question?What if a person fulfills all these you listed,1. If a person has received a witness of God and his gospel through the Holy Ghost...2. If a person has been baptized...3. If a person has received the New and Everlasting covenant...4. If a person knows the truth pertaining to God and his gospel...But breaks one of the other commandments, what then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Ok thanks FINOCK ....... We are making progress...... Can I ask another question?What if a person fulfills all these you listed,1. If a person has received a witness of God and his gospel through the Holy Ghost...2. If a person has been baptized...3. If a person has received the New and Everlasting covenant...4. If a person knows the truth pertaining to God and his gospel...But breaks one of the other commandments, what then?You call it "progress". So sad. HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Perhaps I am not as educated as you ........... That is why I am asking what happens to thos who break a commandment other than murder............... 1. If a person has received a witness of God and his gospel through the Holy Ghost... 2. If a person has been baptized... 3. If a person has received the New and Everlasting covenant... 4. If a person knows the truth pertaining to God and his gospel... What IF that person lies, falls into the sin of adultry, steals, etc.............. What if that person does not obey the laws of the land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seraphim Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 On this site I have been condemned to hell by one of your own. I am wanting to learn more of why LDS believe they way they do......I am very curious. We would like to be informed when this happens. Please click on the red triangle above the post to report whoever condemned you to Hell.Seraphim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finrock Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Ok thanks FINOCK ....... We are making progress...... Can I ask another question?What if a person fulfills all these you listed,1. If a person has received a witness of God and his gospel through the Holy Ghost...2. If a person has been baptized...3. If a person has received the New and Everlasting covenant...4. If a person knows the truth pertaining to God and his gospel...But breaks one of the other commandments, what then?You're welcome HizWife.Perhaps this equation will be helpful. Let me define terms that I use in the equation. Conditions means the conditons 1-4 listed above and in my post. Other sin means all other sin except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Please consider the equation below:1. Conditions + murder = unpardonable sin2. Conditions + other sin ≠unpardonable sinTherefore, 2 allows for forgiveness as far as scripture is concerned.To phrase it another way. We can be forgiven for all sins except for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. The conditions outlined and committing murder constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, therefore, it is not possible to be forgiven. So, really, the issue is not really murder, it is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.I hope this has been understandable to you.Regards,Finrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HizWife625 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Finrock..... Thank you for your kindness....I do really appreaciate that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalenfehl Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 SkalenFehiDo you deny Matt 5 as lostnfound notated?This must be why I couldn't find your reference:skalenfehl.......... 1 John 3:15 KJV 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himJust got back from work, which is why I didn't reply sooner. I hope others have explained well enough your question about murder and forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finrock Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Finrock.....Thank you for your kindness....I do really appreaciate that.....You're welcome.Regards,Finrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Simply and easy to read and understand...way to go friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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