David and Moses


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You're welcome HizWife.

Perhaps this equation will be helpful. Let me define terms that I use in the equation. Conditions means the conditons 1-4 listed above and in my post. Other sin means all other sin except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Please consider the equation below:

1. Conditions + murder = unpardonable sin

2. Conditions + other sin ≠ unpardonable sin

Therefore, 2 allows for forgiveness as far as scripture is concerned.

To phrase it another way. We can be forgiven for all sins except for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. The conditions outlined and committing murder constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, therefore, it is not possible to be forgiven. So, really, the issue is not really murder, it is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

I hope this has been understandable to you.

Regards,

Finrock

Conditions for unpardonable sin go beyond what has been described. One must receive all the ordinances, but then also be an actual witness of the resurrected Christ and THEN rebel totally against him and shed innocent blood.

Most members of the Church would not qualify if they were to murder someone today. And then there is the issue of defining the term "innocent blood." Small children would definitely apply, but who else?

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In a nut shell, David will loose half his glory to another of the same lineage and name, and will not be left in hell but in the end will inherit what the Lord will offer him through his repentance.

[see the Teachings of Joseph Smith, p. 339]

Moses never touched death as he is immortal being. Reminds me of Alma Jr, Samuel the Prophet, and others from the BOM.

Where is that supported in the Bible?

Actually HizWife....you are at a disadvantage because you don't accept the full word of God....it's oaky though, you can still be saved in your ignorance of the Gospel.

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Actually HizWife....you are at a disadvantage because you don't accept the full word of God....it's oaky though, you can still be saved in your ignorance of the Gospel.

Wow......That was pretty strong.

You could have just answered my question with scripture, but instead you choose to belittle me calling me ignorant. Such kind words you use.

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Wow......That was pretty strong.

You could have just answered my question with scripture, but instead you choose to belittle me calling me ignorant. Such kind words you use.

I agree with you, Dorsey was rather pungent in his response. As it is, we ALL are ignorant to a point, at least when it comes to spiritual things. For me, Socrates is the most profound philosopher, primarily because he realized he knew nothing. Thing is, he knew more than most, but was humble enough to see that his knowledge of the universe and of God were so small that they bordered on nothing. I try to see myself from that standpoint, as well.

Each of us will receive salvation, in the ignorance we currently have.

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Andrew777

That is not a question for me to answer..... That is between you and God.........

You and I believe they are different. Within these scriptures are what I beleive

Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8), Deuteronomy 33:27, Psalm 90:2, 1 Timothy 1:17,Genesis chapter1, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 37:16)

He is perfect and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8, Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39)

I also believe to be absent from our bodies as believers means we are with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8).

Unbelievers are sent to Hell, or the place of the dead (Luke 16:22-23).

When Jesus comes for the second time, we will receive new bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). There will be a New Heaven and New Earth for believers (Revelation 21:1), and unbelievers will be thrown into an everlasting lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). There is no second chance for redemption after death (Hebrews 9:27).

We can only be made holy in God's sight through faith in Him (1 Corinthians 1:2). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16) and is the only one ever to have lived a sinless, blameless life, who now has the highest place of honor in Heaven (Hebrews 7:26).

Jesus and God are one in essence, Jesus being the only One existing before physical birth (John 1:1-8, 8:56). Jesus gave Himself to us as a sacrifice, and God raised Him from the dead, and one day everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:6-11).

Jesus tells us it is impossible to get to Heaven by our own works, only with faith in Him is it possible (Matthew 19:26). And many will not choose Him. “You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way” (Matthew 7:13).

We all deserve eternal punishment for our sins, but God's infinite love and grace has allowed us a way out. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Clearly there is only one way to receive salvation; to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). It is not done by works, but by faith (Romans 1:17, 3:28). When we have this faith, we will automatically be obedient to God's laws and become baptized out of love for Him, but not because it is a requirement for salvation.

We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22).

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

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Andrew777

That is not a question for me to answer..... That is between you and God.........

You and I believe they are different. Within these scriptures are what I beleive

Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8), Deuteronomy 33:27, Psalm 90:2, 1 Timothy 1:17,Genesis chapter1, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 37:16)

He is perfect and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8, Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39)

Rameumptom:

And yet God is ever shown as anthropomorphic in the scriptures. He is not a mortal man, I agree. However, the scriptures continually show God as an exalted man. And most Biblical scholars will agree that he was seen as anthropomorphic by early Jews and Christians.

I also believe to be absent from our bodies as believers means we are with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8).

Unbelievers are sent to Hell, or the place of the dead (Luke 16:22-23).

Ram: Ancient Jews believed there was a difference between Sheol and the eternal hell that the evil go to. The early Christian text, Gospel of Nicodemus, is easily seen to be akin to LDS belief in the spirit world.

When Jesus comes for the second time, we will receive new bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). There will be a New Heaven and New Earth for believers (Revelation 21:1), and unbelievers will be thrown into an everlasting lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). There is no second chance for redemption after death (Hebrews 9:27).

Ram: And this is true after the final judgment. But there is the Spirit World where Peter tells us that Jesus went to preach to the dead.

We can only be made holy in God's sight through faith in Him (1 Corinthians 1:2). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16) and is the only one ever to have lived a sinless, blameless life, who now has the highest place of honor in Heaven (Hebrews 7:26).

Ram: And we agree with this.

Jesus and God are one in essence, Jesus being the only One existing before physical birth (John 1:1-8, 8:56). Jesus gave Himself to us as a sacrifice, and God raised Him from the dead, and one day everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:6-11).

Ram: Jesus is the only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, according to LDS belief. Many scriptures note the divine council (Job 1, Isaiah 6, etc) that existed before the earth was. Jesus was there, we agree. As for them being "one in essence" I have yet to find a verse in the Bible that says that. John 17 has Jesus praying that his disciples be one as the Father and Son are one. If we were to interpret this to mean "essence", then we must accept the idea that the resurrection means we all will coalesce into one spirit being.

Jesus tells us it is impossible to get to Heaven by our own works, only with faith in Him is it possible (Matthew 19:26). And many will not choose Him. “You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way” (Matthew 7:13).

Ram: We cannot save ourselves is true. Jesus' atonement resurrects us and saves us from eternal hellfire and damnation. Still, the scriptures tell us we will be judged for our works, which will determine the level of heaven we will receive (2 Corinthians 12:1-4).

We all deserve eternal punishment for our sins, but God's infinite love and grace has allowed us a way out. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Ram: And we agree with this.

Clearly there is only one way to receive salvation; to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). It is not done by works, but by faith (Romans 1:17, 3:28). When we have this faith, we will automatically be obedient to God's laws and become baptized out of love for Him, but not because it is a requirement for salvation.

We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22).

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

Ram: And we agree with this. Baptism is an outward expression of our giving ourselves to Christ in faith. We are baptized in order to follow in His footsteps and to proclaim ourselves his children. But it is a necessary outward ordinance, commanded of God that we do, not because it will save us, but because we show our faith and repentance by doing it. To refuse baptism would be to show a lack of love and faith toward God.

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