Is grace enough?

[Traveler]

I just cought up on some of the posting. I find it interesting that even though some say that grace is enough they will then turn around and say it is not enough if you deny the Christ. If it is enough and if it is free then even discussions are pointless. The only reason to say or talk about the grace of G-d and make a point of it - is because somewhere somehow it is not enough.

It does not matter what a person says - it is what they do. That has always been the case and will always be the case.

Let me put this in another way - How can a G-d be called "full of grace" and love and compassion that would banish anyone from heaven that truly desired to be there. I have said it before and I will say it again. THE GRACE OF G-D IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THOSE THAT WOULD RATHER BE IN DARKNESS THAN IN LIGHT!!!

I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d.

Also - I do not care what you have done or where or how you worship or what church you belong to - If you want to live in heaven with G-d - I offer you all that I have and all that I am to stand by and assist you in getting there as best I can and know how. Even if it does not make a difference - I offer it anyway.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Jesus' "grace is sufficient" for a believer. If you do not accept him then it is not the relationship he desires and God's plan and therefore you are on the outside. The path is narrow-it is not any church or any way you chose to worship from what I take from scripture but only one way. I do not claim to know better than God what is loving/fair/right but I'm only going by what He gave us in the Bible.

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, if I read you right, you are offering to extend yourself for me...cause I want to be in heaven with God. So, that's a firm foundation for us.

[Traveler]

Jesus' "grace is sufficient" for a believer. If you do not accept him then it is not the relationship he desires and God's plan and therefore you are on the outside. The path is narrow-it is not any church or any way you chose to worship from what I take from scripture but only one way. I do not claim to know better than God what is loving/fair/right but I'm only going by what He gave us in the Bible.

I see this as nothing more than a game of words. How can anyone say they accept Jesus and not his commandments - and how can they say they accept his commandments and break them?

Anyone that says they love Jesus and honor him but have not forgiven others - what ever their sin - are no more accepting of Jesus than the worse heritic and so call non-believer. You can play any word game you like but his greace is enough for anyone at anytime that desires to be with G-d in heaven. I stand by what I have said both in saying it and helping anyone regardless of who had turned them away or for what.

Nothing is impossible to G-d and it is never too late - there is a "way". But if you do not want to be with those of us that have errored (what ever the error - including denying G-d) but yet now desire his grace having experienced your sin - that is your choice and I will not fault you for making it public. But it does not chang my resolve. Thanks anyway

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Of course we have all sinned. Thanks be to God for the saving grace of his Son. I see that you only see it as a word game but I don't know how to get around the facts without using words. I don't understand what you are saying about believing him but not keeping his commandments. What exactly to you mean? Do you mean that once saved you can never sin again? Paul says he does what he does not want to do and does not do what he wants to do. So are we all even after we are saved. We read that not all that call "Lord Lord" will enter. Why do you think that is? Jesus can cover all sins once a saving relationship is established between Him and his creation. If none, then that's on us. God reached out to us. The gift is there.

[Hemidakota]

Many will be glorified in heaven but only a few will reside with the Godhead in greatest glory called the Celestial glory. Nothing but tears will be shed for the many.

[HizWife625]

Anyone that says they love Jesus and honor him but have not forgiven others - what ever their sin - are no more accepting of Jesus than the worse heritic and so call non-believer.

What about the murderer who cannot be forgiven by your own doctrine? That is what is confusing for me when you say the above.

Have you ever lied? Have you ever broken the speed limit? Have you ever just mistakenly taken a pen from work? ETC..... Sin is sin in His eyes.

Those who believe that grace is sufficient ARE NOT SAYING, we can live like hethens..... But what we do believe, is that until the day the Lord returns, we will fall and that means we will fall into sin.....My little lie is no better than the murderer.....It is still sin..... My desire is to walk the path of bringing complete honor and glory to our Lord....To renew my mind daily in His words and desire to live according to His will doing what is right....But I am flesh and I have the inherited sin nature of Adam and Eve..... I cannot live on this earth and not sin.....I can attempt everytime I a faced with sin/temptation to overcome with the power and wisdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, but there will be times I fail........When I fall, I repent by the prompting of the Holy Spirit......I know I have done wrong and want to make it right before God....... But what He has promised is that by my faith in Him, his death on the cross and His faithfulness is that our relationship will always remain.....My salvation is never taken away. But when I do sin, the relationship is weakened......... Of course we try to keep the commandments, but we also believe in New Testiment law of that sins were forgiven at the cross.

What were Jesus' few last words on the Cross....." FATHER PLEASE FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO:................... If He has the grace, mercy and love to ask His father to forgive those who were murdering Him, and if we are to imitate Him, why can't the murderer be forgiven for his sins according to the LDS doctrine ? Why is His death not sufficient for all who believe in Him?

Grace is sufficient..... That is why Jesus died because there is nothing anyone else could ever do to cover all sins....He was the ultimate sacrifce for all who sin....

But I do agree, that those who profess their faith in Jesus Christ need and should walk the path of righteousness.......The bible says we are to renew our mind daily, correct ? Why would it say that if we never sinned again?

[Hemidakota]

Your eyes are not open at this time.

[HizWife625]

Hemi

By your own statement, your temple or your followersrs cannot forgive the murderer...... But by Travelers own words, he/she finds it wrong not to forgive others, no matter what the sin........

The question really is .....

Did Jesus die for all who sin ? If anyone says no, they are limiting Jesus death as to be in vein. That is heart breaking.

BTW......My eyes..... Wide OPEN.....been that way for 29 years.

[Guest tomk]

I just cought up on some of the posting. I find it interesting that even though some say that grace is enough they will then turn around and say it is not enough if you deny the Christ. If it is enough and if it is free then even discussions are pointless. The only reason to say or talk about the grace of G-d and make a point of it - is because somewhere somehow it is not enough.

It does not matter what a person says - it is what they do. That has always been the case and will always be the case.

Let me put this in another way - How can a G-d be called "full of grace" and love and compassion that would banish anyone from heaven that truly desired to be there. I have said it before and I will say it again. THE GRACE OF G-D IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THOSE THAT WOULD RATHER BE IN DARKNESS THAN IN LIGHT!!!

I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d.

Also - I do not care what you have done or where or how you worship or what church you belong to - If you want to live in heaven with G-d - I offer you all that I have and all that I am to stand by and assist you in getting there as best I can and know how. Even if it does not make a difference - I offer it anyway.

The Traveler

I just want to say, there is no dichotomy here. It isn't an either / or situation with grace and works. Both are necessary for the spiritual maturation of the individual. Grace powers the works. Works qualify us for more grace! But in the end, yes, it is a total and complete Gift!! We don't do anything, really, to "earn" or "deserve" our exaltation. Even so, we are required to contribute our paltry sum to the process. As I believe C.S. Lewis said, grace and works are like the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary to get the job done.

God wants us all to come home. It is our choice to avail ourselves of the program He has put in place. It is all being done for OUR benefit.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi

By your own statement, your temple or your followersrs cannot forgive the murderer...... But by Travelers own words, he/she finds it wrong not to forgive others, no matter what the sin........

The question really is .....

Did Jesus die for all who sin ? If anyone says no, they are limiting Jesus death as to be in vein. That is heart breaking.

BTW......My eyes..... Wide OPEN.....been that way for 29 years.

Again, learn the basic doctrine before asking for answers to those topics, even members do not fully comprehend.

[blunt here] I wish it was...if so, then we both talked the same dialog. That is not the case sister.

[Hemidakota]

I just want to say, there is no dichotomy here. It isn't an either / or situation with grace and works. Both are necessary for the spiritual maturation of the individual. Grace powers the works. Works qualify us for more grace! But in the end, yes, it is a total and complete Gift!! We don't do anything, really, to "earn" or "deserve" our exaltation. Even so, we are required to contribute our paltry sum to the process. As I believe C.S. Lewis said, grace and works are like the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary to get the job done.

God wants us all to come home. It is our choice to avail ourselves of the program He has put in place. It is all being done for OUR benefit.

Highlighted the words. It is through own choices.

[HizWife625]

But what works did the thief do?

timK.....I hear ya....really I do. I stand in agreement with most of your statement.

Now ask yourself this..... Let's say you never had a personal relationship with Jesus and you are on your death bed......Let's say you are 95 yrs old ( Lord willing and the creek don't rise)........ All the sudden, you have the desire to call upon Jesus, repent of every sin you have done and ask for Him to save you from hell's eternity....... All you had to depend is that Jesus promised if you call upon His name you will be saved........ That is all you have................. Is that enough?

To me yes.....Jesus gave us that example with the thief on the cross...... The thief had no time to work bringing honor and glory...... He asked.

Please do not get me wrong, please...... It is my desire to live according to what God has planned and designed for those who choose to fallow Him........And I want to..... No doubt there......But grace surpasses all my understanding....My finite mind of mine cannot comprehend how He would choose to given a sinner like me a place with Him in heaven. I am not worthy of His presence, but because He loves me so much, He gives me mercy and grace just for calling upon His wonderful name and asking.

[Hemidakota]

If you are talking about the thief the Savior brought to Paradise, we simply believe his works will need to be accomplish vicarsley for him prior to be accepted into the Celestial Kingdom.

[HizWife625]

Hemi

Thanks for your response, but where is that supported in the bible?

[Jenamarie]

Please understand that not every LDS belief needs to be absolutely supported by the Bible. We reject the man-made notion of a closed cannon. The Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Mormon are sources of Truth equal to the Bible, along witht he Revelations of our modern Prophets. They clarify, Testify, and enhance our knowledge of our God and our Savior.

[Guest tomk]

But what works did the thief do?

timK.....I hear ya....really I do. I stand in agreement with most of your statement.

Now ask yourself this..... Let's say you never had a personal relationship with Jesus and you are on your death bed......Let's say you are 95 yrs old ( Lord willing and the creek don't rise)........ All the sudden, you have the desire to call upon Jesus, repent of every sin you have done and ask for Him to save you from hell's eternity....... All you had to depend is that Jesus promised if you call upon His name you will be saved........ That is all you have................. Is that enough?

To me yes.....Jesus gave us that example with the thief on the cross...... The thief had no time to work bringing honor and glory...... He asked.

Please do not get me wrong, please...... It is my desire to live according to what God has planned and designed for those who choose to fallow Him........And I want to..... No doubt there......But grace surpasses all my understanding....My finite mind of mine cannot comprehend how He would choose to given a sinner like me a place with Him in heaven. I am not worthy of His presence, but because He loves me so much, He gives me mercy and grace just for calling upon His wonderful name and asking.

My answer is -- the man on his deathbed will have a chance to be taught the Gospel and accept it in the Spirit World. Once the proxy work is done here in the physical world, he can continue on in his progression.

A lot of this is going to be taken care of in the millenium.

I invite you to take a few minutes and think about what it means to BECOME like Jesus.

What kind of person will be ... comfortable .... being around Jesus ... partaking in the same work and glory as He does ... serving and saving those around Him ... loving us for who we are, even when we revile.

It is not just about what we DO, but what we have BECOME. We cannot escape this, and even if we turn to Him at the end of our lives -- we are still on a continuum. We still have to become like Him, and that is a process.

Take a few minutes and read through this talk:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Challenge to Become

An excerpt from that talk (my emphasis is in bold):

Many Bible and modern scriptures speak of a final judgment at which all persons will be rewarded according to their deeds or works or the desires of their hearts. But other scriptures enlarge upon this by referring to our being judged by the condition we have achieved.

The prophet Nephi describes the Final Judgment in terms of what we have become: “And if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God” (1 Ne. 15:33; emphasis added). Moroni declares, “He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still” (Morm. 9:14; emphasis added; see also Rev. 22:11–12; 2 Ne. 9:16; D&C 88:35). The same would be true of “selfish” or “disobedient” or any other personal attribute inconsistent with the requirements of God.

Referring to the “state” of the wicked in the Final Judgment, Alma explains that if we are condemned by our words, our works, and our thoughts, “we shall not be found spotless; … and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God” (Alma 12:14).

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

A parable illustrates this understanding. A wealthy father knew that if he were to bestow his wealth upon a child who had not yet developed the needed wisdom and stature, the inheritance would probably be wasted.

The father said to his child:

“All that I have I desire to give you—not only my wealth, but also my position and standing among men. That which I have I can easily give you, but that which I am you must obtain for yourself. You will qualify for your inheritance by learning what I have learned and by living as I have lived. I will give you the laws and principles by which I have acquired my wisdom and stature. Follow my example, mastering as I have mastered, and you will become as I am, and all that I have will be yours.”

==========

Only the Lord can know a man or woman's heart. What is the motive behind the deathbed confession? Is it an eleventh-hour desperate plea for clemency? Hoping to escape a just judgement via a few desperate words of "Lord, Lord, I believe." and thinking that will be enough???

We will all be afforded the TIME and OPPORTUNITY to become like Christ and accept His Gospel. He will know if we are sincere.

[HizWife625]

jeanMarie

Ok, I hear ya.....

In what year did Joseph Smith preach that the Lord would be comnig? From that time, how many years did Joseph Smith say the Lord was coming? Did hte Lord return as Joseph Smith prophecied?

History of the Church (HC) 2:382.

Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 84:114-115................He also said many cities would be destroyed if they rejected the gospel of Joseph Smith......I believe it was Albany, Boston and New York.

D&C 87....... The famous preaching of the END OF ALL NATIONS,

The South was supposed to call on Great Britain for aid, and as a result war would be poured out upon all nations; slaves would revolt; the inhabitants of the earth would mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations would result. The South finally did revolt in 1861, but the slaves did not rise up, war was not poured out upon all nations, there was no worldwide famine, plague, earthquake, etc., and there was no resulting "end of all nations."

The Bible so far outshines every competing source for being God's revelation that if it is not God's Word, it would seem impossible to choose among the leftovers. If the Bible is not God's Word, then we have been left with no clear criteria by which to know what might be.

[Hemidakota]

Which statement? If it is the last one, then are several verses that are find throughout the standard work but let me caution you, we do not believe the Bible is complete and still missing alot of gospel that was given to His servants. Matter of fact over 5000 scrolls were not canonize for one reason or another. It is term as the 'Salvation for the Dead.' This is one of few reasons why there are temples dedicated to GOD.

D&C 138: 48

48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the atemples• of the Lord in the bdispensation• of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the csealing• of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

D&C Official Declaration -1

Helman 14:15

D&C 128:5, 8, 11, 15

D&C 1

James 2:19

Romans 10:2

Now who do you think [Prophet] held those keys for the dead or to do their work? See Malachi 4:5-6 [D&C 128: 17-18]

[Hemidakota]

jeanMarie

Ok, I hear ya.....

In what year did Joseph Smith preach that the Lord would be comnig? From that time, how many years did Joseph Smith say the Lord was coming? Did hte Lord return as Joseph Smith prophecied?

LOL...that is oldest anti mis-quote ever.

[Jenamarie]

jeanMarie

Ok, I hear ya.....

In what year did Joseph Smith preach that the Lord would be comnig? From that time, how many years did Joseph Smith say the Lord was coming? Did hte Lord return as Joseph Smith prophecied?

History of the Church (HC) 2:382.

If J. Smith lived to that age, he would see the coming of Christ. He didn't live to be that age. Perhaps if he had he would have been able to do more of the work of the Lord that would have made the world ready for His coming. Because he was martyred in cold blood that work was cut short.\\

ETA: See my next post for a clearer answer. I need to brush up on my D&C reading.

[Hemidakota]

FAIRS pretty much answered that question. Someone will know what I am referring too.

[Jenamarie]

FAIRS pretty much answered that question. Someone will know what I am referring too.

Did Joseph Prophesy of Christ's Return

Here is what Joseph said:

I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter. I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face

[HizWife625]

Jena

Are you saying because J Smith did not live, Jesus did not come ?

He preached that the Lord would return in approximately 56 years....Somewhere around 1891...... That did not happen.

Albany, Boston and New York were not destroyed......

[Jenamarie]

See the link in my more recent post for a clearer answer. My first answer was a bit off. I'd forgotten the exact wording of the prophecy, so my first conjecture wasn't entirely correct.