Unanswered Questions

[Guest User-Removed]

I am heading out of work

As I'm fond of saying..."Work is the curse of the chatting class"

[JohnBirchSociety]

Hi YellowLight! So, you want strait answers with no beating around the bush? How about this - is it advisable to believe any artist's rendering of historical events? Of course you're gonna be let down if you look into the realities of the situation. Our primary teachers have to show the kids something, and they only have artists renditions to go from, and the artists had a flawed understanding of how the book of mormon came forth. Does this make the church not true? Does the fact that my Bishop's office currently displays artwork from the guy who has Moroni riding a horse [never mentioned in the BoM] mean the church isn't true? Is anyone lying to me? Nope.

It might do you some good to think about what the church's job is, vs your perception of what it is. The 3 fold mission is to Perfect the Saints, Proclaim the Gospel, Redeem the dead. Most primary and sunday school teachers aren't historians, they're peoples mommies who volunteer to serve in a calling. The church has always taught that Joseph brought forth the book of mormon by the power and gift of God - I was never taught he did it on his own. Were you?

Here's what Dr. Peterson has to say about the issue:

I don't see this as all that big a deal, one way or the other. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using a stone or else using two stones. Big difference. He got the Book of Mormon by revelation when the plates were within eyesight or when they weren't. Again, big difference.

I can live with inaccurate illustrations. I've done so all my life. Da Vinci's Last Supper is no more accurate than is any Ensign illustration. The famous painting of Washington crossing the Delaware is multiply inaccurate, too. Every historical painting is. Sometimes grossly so. So is every historical film, docudrama, and historical novel.

...

But I think it's quite baseless to suppose that it was deliberate, that the illustrators who produced these common images had any sinister motive or even, necessarily, knew that their "artist's representations" were historically incorrect. Most members simply don't know much about this stuff, and I have no reason to imagine that illustrators know more than average non-illustrators do about Church history. I wish it were otherwise, but it ain't.

LM

The Book of Mormon most certainly talks about horses:

"22 And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies." (Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 3:22)

Just thought you'd like to know...

[JohnBirchSociety]

I have always been taught that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. I'm not aware that the Church teaches anything that contradicts that. Elder Maxwell said the following about the methods used:

Whatever the details of the process, it required Joseph’s intense, personal efforts along with the aid of the revelatory instruments. The process may have varied as Joseph’s capabilities grew, involving the Urim and Thummim but perhaps with less reliance upon such instrumentalities in the Prophet’s later work of translation. Elder Orson Pratt of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said Joseph Smith told him that he used the Urim and Thummim when he was inexperienced at translation but that later he did not need it, which was the case in Joseph’s translation of many verses of the Bible (see Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, 11 Aug. 1874, 498–99). (Church Publications (HTML))

The Church has been quite open about how it was translated, and what we know about the process. I have known for a long time that Joseph used different instruments, like the Urim and Thummim, and sometimes no instrument during the translation process. Sometimes he didn't even have the plates where he could see them.

On a personal level. Where did you serve as a missionary? I served in Finland myself.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

The Seer Stone currently resides in the First Presidency Vault in Salt Lake City...

[JohnBirchSociety]

It is possible to come up with these kinds of questions about the church without going to anti's websites. Comments like this are what push questioners OUT of the church. I know I was extremely frustrated when my husband tried to tell me I must be getting my information from anti sites, because I absolutely wasn't.

I'll say it again, I believe we do a great disservice to questioning members when we question the motives behind their questions! (wow, how many times can I use question in a sentence? )

The church can stand up to questioning. :)

I believe the Church has done a terrible job in this respect. So bad, in fact, that I don't believe the Church can now ever fully instruct on the realities of our history.

[JohnBirchSociety]

That's right! :)

I'm even surprised that YellowLight has been having trouble getting answers. Personally I haven't had any trouble, and I haven't seen anything that concerns me even a little bit about the history of the Church.

Vanhin

You have got to be kidding me!!!!

I don't think you can be a serious student of LDS History and not be troubled / concerned by the realities such studies present...

Perhaps you mean none of the history impacts your testimony of the restoration? I feel the same way...but there is literally a plethora of stuff that is deeply troubling on an intellectual level...

[VisionOfLehi]

Ask yourself...

Are you seeking answers, or are you seeking flaws?

[Vanhin]

You have got to be kidding me!!!!

I don't think you can be a serious student of LDS History and not be troubled / concerned by the realities such studies present...

Perhaps you mean none of the history impacts your testimony of the restoration? I feel the same way...but there is literally a plethora of stuff that is deeply troubling on an intellectual level...

Hello JohnBirchSociety,

I'm not kidding anybody. Perhaps I'm not a serious student of LDS history, if it means I have to be troubled by it.

Maybe you could explain to me why a serious student of LDS history has to necessarily be troubled by it?

Regards,

Vanhin

[YellowLight]

keeping a "scripture journal" where I wrote down my thoughts on various scriptures

That is such a good idea. I think I will start this tonight. Thanks!!!

[YellowLight]

The Seer Stone currently resides in the First Presidency Vault in Salt Lake City...

Is it really or is that just a mormon myth? Also, one question that I have been trying to find out is this: On the hill Cumorah, where is the stone box that the golden plates were removed from. It seems that this alone would provide such a distinct proof of the book of mormon.

Also, we know that Smith returned the plates to the hill Cumorah. There are many varying accounts of how they were returned. This is from the JoD:

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 17 June 1877

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting. . . . [Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

[HiJolly]

Hello JohnBirchSociety,

I'm not kidding anybody. Perhaps I'm not a serious student of LDS history, if it means I have to be troubled by it.

Maybe you could explain to me why a serious student of LDS history has to necessarily be troubled by it?

Regards,

Vanhin

JohnBirch is welcome to his views.

I wouldn't claim to be a 'serious' student, but I have spent a lot of time on Church history, and I have to admit to a thing or two that are troubling. Well, they would be if I didn't know the Church (and Joseph) were inspired of God and doing the best they could/can.

HiJolly

[Snow]

With a simple concept of how the Book of Mormon was translated, why was it shown to me since primary the two pictures of the translation.

Your implication, of course, is that there is some conspiracy between Sunday School poster artists, Sunday School teachers and the Church Education System, to mislead and and deceive you.

I'd say that a pretty outlandish thought.

Both show Smith translating them, but in reality he used hte peep stone interchangably with the urim and thummim in a hat. Many times the plates weren't even in the room. This isn't a translation. This is confirmed by Daniel Peterson and the church does not deny it. Why did I find out about this from South Park?

I guess that's what happens when you wait for someone to spoon feed you.

My approach, on the other hand, is to take responsibility for my own education and research these things on my own; and as it turns out, I am never, therefor, surprised when I watch cartoons. And, as it also turn out, the overwhelmingly vast majority of quality scholarship and research on topics such as the Book of Mormon translation, comes from Church scholars and faithful members, often published by the Church publishing concerns such as Deseret Books or FARMS or BYU Studies.

By the way, had you been reading Church articles found on LDS.org, you could have learned about the BoM translation years ago.

[Vanhin]

Is it really or is that just a mormon myth? Also, one question that I have been trying to find out is this: On the hill Cumorah, where is the stone box that the golden plates were removed from. It seems that this alone would provide such a distinct proof of the book of mormon.

I personally don't have a problem with the answer "We don't know." Even more distinct proof would be the actual plates themselves in a museum somewhere for people to see. It's apparent that the Lord has left any physical proof out of our reach for now. Perhaps he wants us to gain our proof by a trial of faith instead.

Also, we know that Smith returned the plates to the hill Cumorah. There are many varying accounts of how they were returned. This is from the JoD:

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 17 June 1877

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting. . . . [Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

I'm assuming the question is, where is the cave? I think the same answer applies. We don't know.

This is how I think about it. Let's say that the stone box was available, and archeologists were able to examine it. Let's say that they were accurately able to date it to around AD 421ish. That would be proof indeed, even without the plates. Would the world accept the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ then? Some might, but there would no doubt be those who would still reject the message, dispite the proof. They would be under greater condemnation because of that. Even those who accept the Gospel based on such proof would be on shaky ground, because it's not really about that kind of proof to begin with.

I think the Lord in his wisdom keeps those things from us (for now anyway), so that we would approach him in faith from the get go, and therefore build upon a more sure foundation of faith and testimony. It also protects those who reject our message from greater condemnation, perhaps to give them the maximum opportunity to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and to remain true to their testimonies till the end. That's really what I believe.

The way I see it, if there was a box, or a cave available for everyone to see then why not the plates as well? By the same token, why not just let us be born with a full recollection of the pre-mortal existence while we are at it? Because we would quickly sin against the greater knowledge in our mortal and corrupted state, and we would all be sons of perdition by now. A loving God let's us live by faith, to protect us from ourselves without taking away our agency.

I'm sure my ramblings will do little to satisfy this question for you. I just hope there's something there that makes sense. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Traveler]

Is it really or is that just a mormon myth? Also, one question that I have been trying to find out is this: On the hill Cumorah, where is the stone box that the golden plates were removed from. It seems that this alone would provide such a distinct proof of the book of mormon.

Two points - first about a seer stone and mormon myths. For someone to be a seer they must by covenant have access to a seer stone. All of the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 are seers - which means they all have access to a seer stone.

Concerning the stone box that contained the Book of Mormon. According to the covenants given anciently the sacred records of the Nephits (house of Joseph through Ephraim) and the Jews (house of Israel through Judah) are joined. See Ezekiel 37 pay particular attention to verses 20 - 22.

The Traveler

[Jenamarie]

That is such a good idea. I think I will start this tonight. Thanks!!!

It really was helpful for me, being able to dwell on a scripture for a few minutes, and see how my thoughts on a particular scripture changed as I discovered other scriptures that put it in a different light. My initial thoughts on some scriptures and topics changed drastically as I discovered other scriptures that offered additional insight. I really gained a deeper appreciation of scripture, especially of the Bible, by doing this. :)

[HiJolly]

Is it really or is that just a mormon myth? Also, one question that I have been trying to find out is this: On the hill Cumorah, where is the stone box that the golden plates were removed from. It seems that this alone would provide such a distinct proof of the book of mormon.

It would? I don't think so. It would prove that there was a stone box. But surely Joseph, being a clever boy, was smart enough to ensure it would be there, yes? So it goes.

Also, we know that Smith returned the plates to the hill Cumorah. There are many varying accounts of how they were returned. This is from the JoD:

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 17 June 1877

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting. . . . [Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

Actually, I didn't know that. I thought he just handed them over to Moroni. Interesting.

HiJolly

[Vanhin]

JohnBirch is welcome to his views.

I wouldn't claim to be a 'serious' student, but I have spent a lot of time on Church history, and I have to admit to a thing or two that are troubling. Well, they would be if I didn't know the Church (and Joseph) were inspired of God and doing the best they could/can.

HiJolly

Evening HiJolly,

Well, it wouldn't be in my power to deprive him of his views, nor do I think that my short message even implied anything like that. In fact, I am interested in his views. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[japacific]

What I don't get is why FARMS and FAIR have to even come up with with their responses to defend controversial LDS doctrine which aren't endorsed by the church. If the mormons have a prophet and always have had a prophet why doesn't he just answer the questions just like that?

Instead of saying "we don't know what he meant by that" or "that's not official doctrine" or "it's not essential for our salvation, it isn't important".

Why doesn't someone who can speak officially and is a prophet just say - "The answer to your question is this..."

Why doesn't the church have an official stance on evolution, for example. Can't he just ask and get the facts?

[WillowTheWhisp]

There are some things which the Lord chooses not to reveal to his prophets. Just being a prophet doesn't mean that a man knows everything about everything. He is the Lord's representative and tells us what the Lord tells him to tell us.

[japacific]

Can't think of anything that has been revealed at all. Gordon's "Be kind, be smart" doesn't count to me. Neither does changing the introduction in the book of mormon from principal ancestors to among the ancestors, or to start saying that Joseph translated by a magic stone which he already owned rather than by the Urim and Thummim which the church used to teach.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Well I reckon that's because we haven't been obedient to all the stuff of the past yet so I don't think God will give us any new stuff until we've managed to deal with what we've already got. Prophets of old called people to repentance. What's so different about our modern day prophets doing the same?

[MobyMule]

The prophets are doing their job. The people aren't doing theirs.

[Aphrodite]

Ok, Ive have read through this entite thread-phew! Unfortunately, I havent seen anything coming close to answers to YellowLights questioning. What I have seen is the disappointing standard answers from most members when you say you have questions:

'You don't have enough faith'

'You must be looking at anti literarure'

'You just want to argue'

This does annoy me but I have come to understand a little more since joining this site why that is. It is because people refuse to believe that the church is in any way flawed as that jolts their perception of a picture perfect religion, which it isnt. Unfortunately, we as members are brought up with the immortal phrase 'the chuch is perfect the members aren't'.

So when we discover a threat to that perfected image of this organisation, members immediately go into defense mode by branding you as anti, argumentative or straight away shutting you down by telling you not to question-the reasoning behind this, as far as I can see is that they don't want to hear anything that may tarnish those carefully held views.

I feel I can say this as I used to do the same!!! I had a rebelious friend who DID like to argue and would try and catch me out and I used to say the same things to her-much to my utter horror and embarrassment now, I might add.

If in doubt, members will usually resort to 'well, I know its true no matter what happened'. If we found out tomorrow that PRESIDENT Monson had a criminal record for fraud, theft and bigamy do you think it would right to say, 'Oh well its ok cause THE CHURCH IS TRUE!!!' Of course it would matter, just like it matters what things Joseph Smith got upto. It DOES MATTER.

Yellow Light I agree...it is INCREDIBLY frustrating to not have your concerns taken seriosuly, and this has led me to a deep anger with the church as an organisation. I am slowly starting to work through it like JenaMarie has, who also understands how you and I feel. When things like this flare up again it is difficult to try and not get wound up by the solid mindsets of some people who refuse to listen properly to you.

I am not convinced I will ever get answers to my questions to be honest with you. I feel I have to stay in the church for a number of reasons, and because of that I am trying to look for the good and get by as best I can. But I doubt I will ever go back to the way I felt before about the church. Instead, I have resigned myself to be a 'liberal' Mormon and to think very carefully about what I am taught before I just swallow it without thinking.

It has been a very confusing time for me the last 3 years or so, I hope it doesnt last that long for you. Ultimately, you may need to rethink your membership and what you want from it. Im not saying leave, just alter the way you worship. To be honest, I feel I am a better person for it, more open minded and less judgemental as a result, so that is a very good side effect that has come from my questioning.

Sorry I can't answer your questions as Im still seeking them myself, but I hope I can just let you know theres other people out there like you who know how you feel, and it can get better!

xxx

[Aphrodite]

By the way YellowLight, feel free to PM me on anything if you fear a backlash on the main board x

[Vanhin]

I've yet to see anything that he has asked about that hasn't been answered, or is even remotely troubling. How is not knowing the location of the stone box or the cave troubling, considering we don't have the plates either?

How is the method(s) use by Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon troubling? The only thing on that one, that I have seen, is that someone might be dismayed when it turned out to be different than what they tought it was. The Church doesn't teach anything contrary than that. Joseph Smith did it by the gift and power of God, regardless of whether he was gazing into a hat at a stone, or translating the book from thin air.

Regards,

Vanhin

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have done my best to answer the things that I know the answers to. I can't answer the things I don't know the answers to and in some cases I too heave learned something I didn't know before - like the fact that you can buy seerstones on eBay! I did a search and apparently you can also buy Urims and Thummims on eBay but I doubt they are authentic.