House built on Sand


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I think I have lost my faith. While looking at Mormon beliefs and investigating my own beliefs somehow things didn't stack up quite the way I imagined they would. I feel like my faith is a child's fairytale and everything is a lie. I just don't believe anymore. I don't know if it's a permanent or temporary case. I guess when you start pulling apart the foundations apart in your faith, that you don't quite expect not to be able to put them back together again. I'm wondering whether examination is foolishness or wise...and rational faith seems rather irrational if it leads to none. I thought it would be more like building on rock, but it seems not. If Christianity is so diverse, then what is the truth, if any.

The whole grace aspect of standing because God holds you there and there is nothing that He cannot do...I mean if I had faith it was entirely through grace and the faith in that was there in a personal way. I guess it was integral or perhaps borrowed...if not completely childlike. Religion seems so much of a construct. Is there really any more to life than living it as best you can...I think perhaps not and that all else is illusion and as elusive as believing in something that is as chameleon as faith.

I don't know if that makes any sense. But putting it out there for discussion.

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I've been in your shoes.

One thing I want to ask: has your search been one of looking for a religion to have faith in? Or have you been focusing on finding faith in God/a God? When I lost my faith the first thing I did was look for my faith in God, *then* I was able to better focus on religion. Religion helps to strengthen our relationship with Him, but we have to first have that relationship, before religion can do much to help us. Faith in a religion cannot substitute for our faith in God.

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Diversity does not, in itself, show "no truth" Wanderer. The truth that matters is in the fundamentals not the peripheral aspects. It's about Christ and Him crucified where I suggest you begin and focus. Start reading in John.

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I can not look out on the day and not see God in all around me. The beauty of creation, new birth, even in death. I agree what earlier posters have said. Find faith in God and His Son, Jesus Christ, then seek to find religion where you can learn more of him. Build the foundation first as you earlier said. Good luck in your search.

Ben Raines

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Guest tomk

Wanderer :)

It seems your name is perfect for you right now. :)

It makes perfect sense to me. I have gone through similar struggles.

I remember taking an ethics class in college and one thing the instructor invited us to do was amazing. I'll never forget it. It was simple but very profound, and I have found it to be true. He taught us that no matter our religion, we need to find-out for ourselves if it is really what we want. He invited us to "own" our beliefs. For emphasis he repeated it several times. "Own it.....OWN it." Up to that point I really had never questioned my beliefs. I had accepted them on "blind faith" and had never scratched below the surface.

We have to believe what we believe for ourselves. Independent of any other person. And, some how, some way, we have got to learn to love God and obey Him out of love, not fear, not out of a sense of duty, or tradition, or for appearances sake, or for any other reason than we actually, genuinely, believe it to be true.

Contemplating this process scared me to death. But as I have persevered, great blessings of actual knowledge have come. Signs follow those who choose to believe.

John 7: 17

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Isn't that what we are trying to figure-out?

Is the Mormon religion just feeding us a bunch of platitudes, or is it actual revelation?

Does it really come from God, or did Joseph Smith make it all up?

Well the formula for finding this out was given to us by Christ Himself:

John 7: 17

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

This applies to any principle of the Gospel.

Alma 32 is also a fantastic description of the process.

There is much, much more to the Gospel than going to Church every Sunday for 30 years or 60 years and then dying.

The Gospel holds the keys of the mysteries of godliness, the mysteries of the knowledge of God. Knowledge of God like Joseph Smith had. Knowledge of God like the brother of Jared had. Personal knowledge. A visit from the Savior Himself. A literal visit, not figurative. We can come to the point where we can see within the veil. Christ will embrace us and will minister unto us. He will comfort us. He is called the "Second Comforter." He is called that for a reason. When He comes it will be to comfort us. We will need that comfort.

That is the "fullness of the Gospel" -- seeing Him face to face. All of scripture points to this. The temple ceremony points to this face to face meeting. The pattern of the scriptures points to this. Christ will come to His people. He personally, will lead them along. He is the Keeper of the Gate.

This is what I aspire to. For the most part, it is a private, personal thing. I declare it here only to let you, and others who are ready, know what this is all about and what this is all pointing to. For those who are not ready, this will seem like nonsense. That is as it should be.

I hope these words help.

Tom

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Tom, I don't know what to say...except there's a lot of wisdom in that there post. In my current state of confusion it probably needs a bit of time for me to work through what you've said. I will think it over and I've copied and pasted it onto my puter

Thankyou.

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Wanderer: You and I are similar but at different points of journey. Tom has posted some useful things concerning values. A value is something you own. I would point you to observe one thing of G-d as something of value. That is -> What we tend to desire and get for ourselves feeds our selfishness and in reality is of little value (including salvation). When we labor to serve it feeds our concern and compassion of others and is of greatest value.

In short:

to get for one’s self – though attractive and alluring, is shallow and an illusion

to give of one’s self – though less attractive and less alluring, is deep and of great substance and worth.

G-d gives of himself and the only to know him and have faith in him is to give of one’s self.

The Traveler

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Guest tomk

I appreciate the comments.

Although the testimony behind the words is my own -- I have been significantly influenced by the incredible words and testimony found in this book:

Amazon.com: The Second Comforter:: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil: Denver C. Jr. Snuffer: Books

I have read this book through several times now. I am on my 3rd reading as I write this.

Those who read this book "with real intent" will be exposed to some wonderful insights into the "next steps" beyond the routine of going to Church each Sunday. After reading this book, you will see the "more" that I speak of. :)

The book is written by an obscure member of the Church. As he says, it is doubtful you have ever heard of Him. But he claims to have seen the risen Lord face to face. His book flows from his journey to receive the Second Comforter.

Reading this book fills me with a peace and calm assurance I find hard to describe. I believe his witness. I seek for the same.

Tom

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Guest tomk

Wanderer: You and I are similar but at different points of journey. Tom has posted some useful things concerning values. A value is something you own. I would point you to observe one thing of G-d as something of value. That is -> What we tend to desire and get for ourselves feeds our selfishness and in reality is of little value (including salvation). When we labor to serve it feeds our concern and compassion of others and is of greatest value.

In short:

to get for one’s self – though attractive and alluring, is shallow and an illusion

to give of one’s self – though less attractive and less alluring, is deep and of great substance and worth.

G-d gives of himself and the only to know him and have faith in him is to give of one’s self.

The Traveler

You speak truth!

Actual, pure Charity is not possible without revelation from God. Otherwise, how can we meet their needs as if we were God, as God's proxy?

That revelation is not to be had "just for the asking" There is a context for that revelation. The context for that revelation is our daily seeking to have a personal relationship with Christ. A real relationship. One where we expose our pride and weaknesses and fears to Him. Our soft, vulnerable underbelly. Our whole souls as an offering. To grow in our love for Him. To act as if He is standing there beside us. That is much easier to say than to DO. But that is how He wants us to behave. As if He is standing there.

He speaks truly when He says:

D&C 88: 63

63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

"and I will draw near unto you"

This thrills me to think about this reality. I crave it ... like nothing else. I am full of imperfection, but I still crave it.

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I think I have lost my faith. While looking at Mormon beliefs and investigating my own beliefs somehow things didn't stack up quite the way I imagined they would. I feel like my faith is a child's fairytale and everything is a lie. I just don't believe anymore. I don't know if it's a permanent or temporary case. I guess when you start pulling apart the foundations apart in your faith, that you don't quite expect not to be able to put them back together again. I'm wondering whether examination is foolishness or wise...and rational faith seems rather irrational if it leads to none. I thought it would be more like building on rock, but it seems not. If Christianity is so diverse, then what is the truth, if any.

The whole grace aspect of standing because God holds you there and there is nothing that He cannot do...I mean if I had faith it was entirely through grace and the faith in that was there in a personal way. I guess it was integral or perhaps borrowed...if not completely childlike. Religion seems so much of a construct. Is there really any more to life than living it as best you can...I think perhaps not and that all else is illusion and as elusive as believing in something that is as chameleon as faith.

I don't know if that makes any sense. But putting it out there for discussion.

Perhaps ypur faith is just now starting......Keep searching and praying that Jesus would open your heart, remove all obstacles and speak to your heart clearly, wisely and boldly.

We will stand in prayer with you.

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Perhaps ypur faith is just now starting......Keep searching and praying that Jesus would open your heart, remove all obstacles and speak to your heart clearly, wisely and boldly.

We will stand in prayer with you.

Excellent thought. I agree.

HiJolly

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Wanderer,

How are you? I was thinking about you today and thought I would add a note. During this last couple of years I have had moments that felt a lot like your above post. And I remember some of the same thoughts going thru my mind.

I guess I am wondering....are you looking at the LDS or all Christian churches or religion in general? When you say that you have lost your faith.....is it faith in religion you feel you have lost or faith in the existence of a God?

My answers started to come. They seemed to come after the darkest times. Darkest before the dawn, as they say. My answers came thru and after scriptures and prayers and hymns. I did have to exercise my faith and my intellect to make the best determinations possible. And I had to desire the truth of things. And I had to learn the lessons of my necessary process. You are perhaps in process too. Are you able to pray? Or are you sick of it? Have you felt open to the BofM or Bible? The BofM has single handedly kept me close to this church and is anchoring me to it even now.

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You speak truth!

Actual, pure Charity is not possible without revelation from God. Otherwise, how can we meet their needs as if we were God, as God's proxy?

That revelation is not to be had "just for the asking" There is a context for that revelation. The context for that revelation is our daily seeking to have a personal relationship with Christ. A real relationship. One where we expose our pride and weaknesses and fears to Him. Our soft, vulnerable underbelly. Our whole souls as an offering. To grow in our love for Him. To act as if He is standing there beside us. That is much easier to say than to DO. But that is how He wants us to behave. As if He is standing there.

He speaks truly when He says:

D&C 88: 63

63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

"and I will draw near unto you"

This thrills me to think about this reality. I crave it ... like nothing else. I am full of imperfection, but I still crave it.

I am not always sure that what is involved in a relationship with Christ is understood very well. Again is not about what someone gets but what they give. (see Matt 25:31-46)

Having a personal relationship with Christ is having a personal relationship with those around us that me deal with everyday. Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of his brouthern - you have done it unto him.

The Traveler

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Guest tomk

I am not always sure that what is involved in a relationship with Christ is understood very well. Again is not about what someone gets but what they give. (see Matt 25:31-46)

Having a personal relationship with Christ is having a personal relationship with those around us that me deal with everyday. Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of his brouthern - you have done it unto him.

The Traveler

Well spoken.

It is about what we get! But the getting is not done for getting's sake. :) What we are getting is knowledge that we lack. What knowledge do we lack? The knowledge we lack is how to act as God's proxy, such that if He were standing in our shoes, we would speak as He would actually speak, do as He would actually do. Only personal revelation affords us this knowledge.

Otherwise, we are doing GOOD THINGS, yes --- but alas, perhaps we are not meeting the actual needs of others!

Does this mean that we are to sit around waiting for God to tell us what to do? No, of course not! We are to do our best anyway. But Charity as I understand it involves personal revelation as a critical ingredient.

The getting is gotten from the Lord Himself, and it always, by nature, blesses us and others.

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I feel like my faith is a child's fairytale and everything is a lie. I thought it would be more like building on rock, but it seems not. If Christianity is so diverse, then what is the truth, if any.

There are definite benefits for those who choose to believe: Religion gives you comfort when you are old and frail and ministers to you when you are about to die. It helps mourn for you when you have lost a spouse or a child. It celebrates with you the momentous events in your life. It helps you survive adversity.

What is a testimony and how is it developed?

A testimony is a statement of your beliefs. Most people have beliefs even if they are not developed enough for any stated expression of them. To use the metaphor of a mine, you need to dig for these beliefs and once you have found various nuggets of wisdom to which you can agree, you need to then refine them so they are cut and polished to suit you. Perhaps sitting down with a pen and paper or by hammering away at the keyboard, you can start to put together a list of ideas from which you can begin this refining process.

For the refining process, two methods people sometimes use are:

1. Burning in the Bosom - You pray and ponder on a subject and if you get a warm and comfortable feeling, then it must be true or useful.

2. The Wisdom of the Kamala Suta: "Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.'

... when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."

Either of these methods can help in refining your beliefs. Just remember, it is always beneficial to you to know what it is you believe in life and why you believe it.

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Guest lauracooke78

///Originally Posted by FlamedwFaith

Perhaps ypur faith is just now starting......Keep searching and praying that Jesus would open your heart, remove all obstacles and speak to your heart clearly, wisely and boldly.///

I absolutely agree. I believe that to truely come to know the Savior, we must come to him with and attitude of... "I KNOW NOTHING". I absolutely know nothing and seek to understand the Lord more and more each day. If I were to approach Heavenly Father in prayer with an attitude that I know something, then he is not going to share anything with us. We must seek him with full purpose of heart. When our mind is empty of what we think we know, that is the time when he fills us with light.

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Miss Halfway - I've lost faith in the existence of God. I've always felt God as a constant companion. I've been trying to slog through the past months thinking it's just one of those things where faith is under trial, but it's looking rather permanent. In my state, I feel that prayer seems a rather empty thing to do...like a lie...but I guess Moshka that number two is a way to go about things. Work out what it is that I still believe in.

Traveller... I can sometimes understand what you are saying and sometimes not. A problem with being 'giving and doing' in life. Um. Sometimes it can be, when people are feeling a bit burnt out I guess. Even with no faith at all, good seems all pretty logical, wouldn't doing anything else be rather counter productive to all. Is it hollow...interesting thought Tom...

Quote: Actual, pure Charity is not possible without revelation from God. Otherwise, how can we meet their needs as if we were God, as God's proxy?

I guess that you do what you do in hope, even when faith is not there to help or guide you.

What about being spiritually giving.. Isn't being with Him, knowing him and feeling His presence... enough? Yes, we're all human enough to relapse into gift mode particularly in extreme situations of stress...please heal/help/answer etc. But no. I realise that many people have faith issues over unanswered prayers. I've always felt connected, until now. It's not about God not answering my prayers...I didn't ask for anything.

I just feel as though I've believed in something that isn't true/where you are no longer asking if it's true or not or what is and what isn't true or expecting some sort of divine revelation or intervention, because you don't believe ...while at the same time it's exactly what you do want because you would like to believe and can't imagine living life any other way ... But I don't think I could receive it anyway. Is it just habit, tradition or cultural... more like losing an important person in your life I would say...as foolish as that might sound.

Perhaps it is a trial or reworking that I need to undergo. Have the flu and kinda feeling a little less resilient and impatient. Things will work out, they always do and perhaps it's not as bad or as impossible to work out as I think...light at the end of the tunnel/silver lining and all that. People do overcome disbelief.

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