Mobius

Unfortunately it seems as though some of the people here don't really understand their own doctrine. So many of you seem to have no problem with the concept of evolution. The LDS church clearly teaches that God created man and woman and that before the fall the Earth and everything in it was in a Paradisiacal state - this means no death, no degeneration, no evolution. I don't care if a day is 24 hours or 1 million years, if nothing dies nothing evolves. The fossil record, carbon dating, etc. show that. Is the assumption that there were people before Adam with no spirits? That just seems really silly since the LDS church teaches that the spirit gives life to the body. I suppose this thread has gotten off-topic and is probably not useful for anyone at this point, so I'll just say thanks to everyone who helped. I genuinely love and respect each of your opinions. I also love that as human beings we can discuss and debate like this, disagree and still feel that inner divine connection. Thanks!

Misshalfway, what "hook" are you referring to that that statement would let me off of? As your statement says: "It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk." It doesn't sound like being let off of anything. And thanks for the reference utcowboy. I hope it helps.

The reason I still argue the point is because the future of my family rides on the answer (as was mentioned in my earlier posts, which I why I keep circling around this). If the answer is what I received, then what? Should I just say "Ok, well god told me the LDS church is not true, let's start working out visitation rights, alimony, etc."? It's a little more complicated than you make it seem. Have you ever had a spiritual decision that had such drastic consequences? Would you really just give up your spouse, children, family and friends so easily? If you can you're a much better person than I am, and you have my respect. To answer your second question, you can have spiritual impressions and not believe in God. This is a misunderstanding of most Western religions. The entire teachings of Buddhism and many Eastern theologies are based on this. It is more about connecting with the divine within yourself rather than looking to an outside authority for validation, approval or confirmation. The downside with this is, as we see, there is no one god controlling everyone leading them to one truth. Truth resides in yourself, for yourself (it's the awareness behind the thoughts and emotions you mentioned in one of your posts).

I've finally found someone who has the intelligence and strength to answer my question honestly: "If God leads you to Buddism, or Christianity or Islam, it really doesn't matter. Having faith that He will lead you and make truth known unto you whether it is a question of religion or science, this is ALL that really matters. It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk." If the LDS church taught that - oh what a better place it would be (sounds more like Buddhism to me : )) Now, the follow up to that question. If you truly believe that, if you truly believe that what God leads you to may vary depending on your situation and what you need, how can you believe in a church that teaches the exact opposite? THAT is the crux of my problem. In conversations with people about doctrine, faith, etc. it almost always comes down to "well, I'm not sure, but the church sure is a great way to live!" And I really have no argument with that because it's true, but that's not what the LDS Church teaches, so it just makes me wonder how many people don't actually "know" the church is true, but just know that it's a good way to live. If people would agree with that, yes tomk, it would help my situation (remember my family is the one who says I have to believe the same things, so if they understood this it would help our situation immensely). I remember very distinctly sitting in a Sacrament meeting listening to an RM speak on personal revelation and he was saying that unless you ask God directly if the Church is true you will never know, so I decided to give it a try. I sat right there during the meeting (perfect spiritual environment) and poured my heart out and asked if the LDS Church was true and you know what I "felt?" No! It's just a good way to live and all this "who's right and who's wrong" is not anything an all-loving, all-knowing, all-merciful god would be involved in. And I'm agnostic btw.

Misshalfway and tomk. Thanks for your responses - they were very well written and they helped me explore a little more of what I am searching for. I think I really am just trying to find my personal beliefs and be honest with myself, and you have helped tremendously in that. If I am honest with myself, I know that emotions are one of the most easily manipulated aspects of human life (ever been angry, frustrated, heard a speach from Martin Luther King Jr, Hitler, etc.?) and are a very poor source of truth, which is partly why science has been able to resolve so many ancient myths - it uses logic rather than emotion. That realization helps a lot. And, this is my "core problem" with the LDS faith - that it claims to be THE true religion and bases that primarily on emotion (many of the atrocities in Nazi Germany were founded on the same principle btw). Seems too loose I suppose, so I was trying to figure out how people reconcile that in their minds. Also if I am honest with myself, you're right Misshalfway, faith is a HUGE issue for me, and perhaps Christianity is not the best place to look. I have found many other sources of truth that don't discount our God-given ability to reason. The primary issue is that the consequences of not believing in the LDS church is the loss of my family since I have been told that if I don't believe the same things I cannot be a good husband and father. Grrrr. Wouldn't it be interesting if God is the one using logic and Satan is the one using emotion here on earth in the battle (it would sync with the battle in heaven) and we are all just missing the mark like the Jews in Jesus' time???

MobyMule, are you a member of the core LDS church? I am pretty sure that evolution is not taught in any form (unless you consider becoming a god evolving : )) and that it teaches literal interpretation of the Bible. Don't believe me? Try bearing your testimony next month about how strongly the Spirit has testified to you that man evolved from primates in Africa and see how quickly you get called for a Bishop's interview! Pretty much everything in LDS doctrine that I know of contradicts what you said.

Thanks for your feedback, and I respect your opinion and your faith, but that is exactly the kind of response I was hoping I wouldn't hear (as mentioned in my original post), and perhaps the reason many people fall away from the church ("Oh, you have questions about evolution? Have faith!" "Oh, Egyptologists say Joseph's interpretation of the facsimiles is incorrect? Have faith!" "Oh, Brigham Young really did teach that Adam was God, that blacks are less righteous than whites and that for some people Christ's atonement is not enough and they have to be murdered? Have faith!" ad infinitum...) At some point you have to stop and think - what is your faith hanging on? That you had some warm fuzzy feelings when you read the BoM or in the temple or something? I have the same feelings when meditating, reading spiritual books from other authors (esp. Eckhart Tolle), and being a good person. Despite many religious people holding on to this, faith is NOT enough if facts (read: truth or light) shine on the darkness. Despite what the religious "faithful" believed in Galileo's time, the Earth DID actually revolve around the sun. Now that seems so trite, but back then it was a major religious upheaval.

One question I have has to do with the traditional argument of science vs. religion. I recently read Henry Eyring's biography titled Mormon Scientist and I must say I was disappointed. I was hoping to find out some information on how a person can be a scientist and also believe in a specific organized theology, but what I learned is that you can't reconcile LDS doctrine with scientific discovery - Henry Eyring believed in evolution, an Earth that is billions of years old and has never been static, the lack of answers to prayers by God directly, etc. All of these seem to be in contradiction to LDS doctrine - am I missing something? So...my question: Does anyone have any useful ideas of how to believe in a church that interpets the Bible and other scripture literally and pretty much abandons any scientific findings which contradict its doctrine and trumps it with "have faith?" Most of the examples I have under this topic are the specifics of most of my doctrinal disbeliefs. Just as an aside, over the past several years I have been reading books by many spiritual leaders. From what I can see Buddhism appears to be the "religion" most closely aligned to what we actually observe in real life. I have heard so much of Einstein being a religious person, and I actually found a quote from him somewhere that stated that Buddhism most closely aligns with scientific findings. Interesting... I am leaning toward a universal approach in which people are intelligent enough to realize that religion is merely an organized construct to help people acheive spirituality. Religion is primarily based on culture, upbringing and personality and different religions (or even no religion at all) will resonate more with different people. I suppose in some ways I find this "whose religion is the truth?" debate somewhat academic, kind of like arguing which superhero is the best (the "my god can beat up your god" playground bullying). If I were a lawyer and made a very comfortable living I would be assinine to assume that everyone needs to be a lawyer to make a comfortable living. I can't see why people make the same leap in logic with religion, especially since religion is such a variable and theoretical construct.

Oh yes, absolutely. I read every single one of the posts. I use forums as a replacement for the personal interaction I find so lacking in my reality.

This is an excellent point. I am a former church member and this is one of the doctrinal convolusions that I have yet to answer. So far, it seems to me that the Mormon god is just a really good delegator. He has Jesus create, atone, forgive, mediate, etc. He has the Holy Ghost inspre, guide, uplift, etc. He has people do the leg work to answer others' prayers and build up his church. What does God do? Seriously, can someone tell me what he does (and please don't answer "he has spirit children," that is the type of answer that gives anti-mormons so much ammunition)?

I am a former member of the Church who has been struggling with certain aspects of faith, spirituality, religion, doctrine, etc. for some time now (not just LDS aspects). I am at a point in my life where my previous battles of faith are front and center and I find myself searching for help with honest answers to difficult questions. My research on this forum as well as non-Mormon forums reveals a very strong bias toward the beliefs of each forum's primary membership (which I suppose unfortunately should be expected). Does anyone out there know of any good forums in which spirituality and belief can be discussed openly and honestly without being labelled "anti," "apologist," etc. and questions can be answered with something more substantial than "have faith" "that's the way my god made things, so there's no reason to question."? Thanks!

I was reading through this post for curiosity's sake and was struck with a slight epiphany. Doesn't it seem a little ridiculous to have a thread that goes on for 10 pages detailing whether green tea is or is not against the doctrine of the church with posts about caffeine content in chocolate bars, references to conflicting doctrine, scripture quotes, etc.? Doesn't that sound like something a Pharisee would be chatting about in Jesus' time? ("Say, Silas, how many steps was I limited to today? 100? Shoot, go on without me!") I thought Jesus did away with all this garbage in the New Testament with the Sermon on the Mount - the overarching principle is to honor the spirit over the letter. I think the church would be a much better institution if people followed Christ's doctrines rather than the philsophies of men (which we all are btw).