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  1. I find it amusing that the very first quote states that there is no official declaration either way, but then it proceeds to provide all the quotes on one side only. Yes, that was the title of the page. But to what end? And all pages like this always include the following quote as if it supports the idea (which it does not): This is explicitly stating that this is NOT a sound doctrine, and he only supposes that exceptions may exist. But as a rule, it is not provided for. * I always accept and admit that there has been no official declaration of the doctrine of progression between kingdoms. But this seems to be a binary answer. As such, I see the following: If false, let's not continue saying it could be the case, lest people get the wrong idea. If true, it is still a dangerous doctrine to be spreading. The doctrine of the Three Degrees was withheld from mankind prior to the Resurrection for a reason. Man was not ready for it. As it is, if this "open kingdoms" (to coin a phrase) doctrine is true, is man ready for it? It is all too easy to interpret this as: I cannot come to any logical thought that would conclude that teaching the doctrine of progression between kingdoms will result in anything other than this mentality. Even it if is true, what good can come of teaching it with the state of man today? Alma warns us about this very mindset. Whatever that "exception" may be (if there is one or a few) it should be obvious that there is a very strong tendency (and possibly, inevitability) to maintain our current attitudes towards obedience and faith (we can call it a "mindset") after we leave this life. And it is that "mindset" that will determine just how far we can go. If complete progress is truly open for all, then that means there really is no separation at all. So this doctrine of the three degrees is meaningless. I would think that if the doctrine of "open kingdoms" is true at all, it would be only in the rarest of circumstances (as Pres. Smith said in the quote above). If the kingdoms truly are open, then what does the doctrine of the three degrees even mean?
    7 points
  2. I go under the knife this week. I will lose a portion of my GI tract, get a temporary ileostomy (small intestine exits the abdomen into a bag 🤢 ), then wait several weeks until he can put my GI tract all back together. As well as the cancer responded to preliminary treatments, we're all optimistic that I should be done with cancer after this.
    6 points
  3. 6 points
  4. Thoughts: 1). A venomous snake rears up before it strikes. A snake condemned to live life on its belly is not going to be a mortal threat to watchful humans. (Ancient Egyptian cursing texts include similar cursing to serpents—that they shall go on their bellies—and this is generally what is understood as being their meaning. See, eg, the relevant footnotes to Genesis 3 in the Zondervan Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, NSRV edition.) 2). It is dangerous to assume, even in a scriptural or liturgical context, that Satan means what he says. Satan’s role and statements, in the temple garden narrative, may be thought of as pageantry; calculated to convince Adam and Eve that God just isn’t being fair and that their loyalty to Him is misplaced.
    6 points
  5. Vort

    Men of no worth?

    In my experience, the Church membership is less inclined to berate men than it has been during my lifetime. I grew up with the men-are-spiritually-inferior-to-women idea promoted front and center from most of my leaders. This was most often the presumed background to what was going, though certainly not uncommon for leaders to simply say it out loud. Phrases like "women are more sensitive to the Spirit" and "women are more righteous than men/more likely than men to inherit eternal life" were tossed around like a beanbag in a game of hot-potato. It wasn't just the brothers saying this sort of crap; the sisters were more than happy to chime in when asserting their superiority. It was a rare woman indeed who publicly denounced such nonsense. This teaching was an effort to emotionally manipulate the rising generation, not just in the Church but in larger society. It may or may not have been intentional; I'm sure it went both ways, depending on the individual speaking. I do think it had an unintended effect of alienating and driving away a not-insignificant number of men who simply got tired of hearing how unworthy they are of female respect or even attention. It is stunning for me to hear young women (e.g. my own nieces) say things like, "I deserve a man who [insert qualification list here, usually including such vital elements as height, weight, and salary minimums]." I want to respond, "Why? What makes you deserve such a man? What does he deserve in a woman?" Maybe I will when the situation next presents itself.
    5 points
  6. Vort

    What price did he pay

    It is my sincere belief that the specifics of Christ's atonement are intentionally (and mercifully) withheld from us as public revelation. If we gain any insights into that topic, it will be through faith, prayer, and then personal, private revelation. I have spoken of this topic to my younger brother, but to no one else. It's not that I believe that my musings are either so profound or so damaging that I dare not risk anyone else's mental and spiritual health by inflicting my Deep Thoughts upon them. Rather, it's that if such things were indeed given me by the Spirit, they are for me, not others, and I believe God will hold me accountable for how I treat his personal revelations. Having said that, let me add that there is a very real risk that the solid food (which is what the scriptures mean by "meat") of the gospel may choke those who need to suckle sweet and nourishing milk. You do not feed bread and fish to newborn infants. I have absolutely no doubt that if we learned even a small part of celestial reality when we are unprepared, the knowledge would overwhelm us and we would very likely turn away in horror. The supremely ironic truth is that God offers us a joy so vast, so intense, so all-consuming, that we in our present state could not bear it. The joy would be too much for us. We would be unable to support it, just as we would be unable to withstand the glory of God in our unprotected mortal flesh. The ultimate purpose of our lives here on earth is to prepare us to withstand a far more, and exceeding, and eternal weight of glory. (See 2 Corinthians 4:17, D&C 63:66, and especially D&C 132:16) Our intimately related capacities to love and to feel joy—you cannot do one without the other—must become as God's is before we can inherit the unthinkable joy of the Father. "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9) And sharing the contents of a personal revelation risks exposing people to an intensity of realization or emotion or thought that could cause spiritual injury to the unprepared. For example, no matter how pro-marriage we are and no matter how much we value and reverence the state of matrimony, we do not allow our little children to marry. The relationship is too intense and too filled with grave responsibility to foist it on the shoulders of a child. The strongest and most righteous among us are spiritual children, here in mortality learning our primary lessons for eternal life. The nitty-gritty specifics of the atonement of the Lord are hidden from us now, lest we shrink in terror or damn ourselves by mocking that which is most sacred. If we seek for such knowledge in an appropriate manner, preparing ourselves to both receive and cherish the understanding, then when we are ready the Lord will give us what we seek, whether in this life or the next. By the way, this is one reason that I deplore speculation on "deep" gospel topics. 99.997% of the time, we will be so absurdly wrong that our foolishness will make a mockery while we speak of that of which we have no comprehension at all. This is a bad thing, something to be avoided. Much worse is the exceedingly rare occasion when, in our foolish blabbering and our vain attempts to show off, we might stumble upon some grain of real and deep truth, something that ought not be shared openly because it is true, and vanishingly few are ready to hear it. That is something that could truly damage the spirit of a brother or sister, and thus is to be avoided at all costs. My thoughts, for what they're worth to you.
    5 points
  7. If we celebrate the birthday of a child conceived through an adulterous act, are we celebrating adultery? Your rhetoric here suggests that your answer would be “yes”. If your answer would be “no”, kindly explain yourself. As for the Latter-day Saint position re the Fall: Yes, we celebrate the fact that they ultimately partook of the fruit and that humankind gained both knowledge of good and evil and a necessary mortal state. We do not celebrate the circumstances under which that act was done (ie, the fact that it was an act of disobedience), because, as Elder Smith clearly states, it did constitute a transgression. We also note, as Paul did, that while Eve was deceived, Adam was not (1 Tim 2:14). There is a significant difference between celebrating the incidental positive benefits of a wrongful decision (and God’s ability to turn all things to the benefit of those who love Him), versus celebrating the wrongfulness of the decision itself. This has been explained to you on multiple occasions, and yet you seem to keep trying to strawman us into the latter position.
    4 points
  8. mikbone

    Mercy

    Participation ribbons are given unconditionally. If mercy was given out unconditionally, you wouldn't need an omnipotent omniscient God to dispense it. A monkey in a box with a single easy button could dispense it unconditionally.
    4 points
  9. What do you mean by he didn't suffer what we would have suffered? What have you suffered that you think his condescension didn't suffer?
    4 points
  10. Herrbal tea is kind of a misnomer. Instead, herbal tea is an infusion or blend of various leaves, fruits, bark, roots, or flowers belonging to almost any edible, non-tea plant. As long as it isn't coming from back or green tea leaves you should be just fine.
    4 points
  11. mikbone

    Recession

    Personally excited to hear the prophet’s council for the next 6 months this weekend.
    3 points
  12. mikbone

    Recession

    We finally got our 27.2 kWp solar array (80 panels) and Propane Kohler 30 kW generator installed. Took almost 2 years. Permits, unexpected hazards, roof repairs, excuses, rescheduling, supply chain issues. Was a bit spendy. But now I have a surplus of energy production and run the A/C whenever I want - at any temperature. Next car I get will likely be electric. PG&E (pacific gas & electric) is crazy expensive. Summer monthly electric bills over 1K are no joke. And they will turn off the power with a threat of high winds (forest fire threat / prior lawsuits) for days at a time. We had to buy a second propane tank 500 gallons dedicated for the generator. When we bought the house 2 years ago I got a used propane tank for $500. The one I bought last month cost 4K. Unbelievable… The break-even point is likely 15 years or so. But I love to watch the power production and review PG&E bills with a credit instead of 4 figure payment request. Previously I would get a warning that I was using too much energy for a single family on the 10th of the month and I would get charged on the 4th tier for energy usage. Ridiculous.
    3 points
  13. mirkwood

    Blitzkrieg

    While I think Trump was a good President, I hope he does not run again, or loses to a quality opponent in a primary. I do not think a second term with him at the helm would be good for the country. We are wayyyyy to polarized at this point for him to be President again.
    3 points
  14. laronius

    Eternal progression

    I came across this article that I thought was really interesting and makes a compelling argument about what eternal progression really means, regardless of the kingdom we end up in. One problem I have with it though, at least in part, is that for it to be completely true then it kind of wouldn't matter where we ended up. But regardless I think there is some truth to the theory. https://latterdaysaintmag.com/switching-glories/
    3 points
  15. A post surgery thought. After removing the affected portion of my gut, they examined it under a microscope and found residual cancer cells invisible to the MRI. So, in hindsight, the choice to proceed with surgery was the right one. I've gotten fairly sensitized to the observation that God doesn't always intervene (for the better) in everyone's lives, so I'm a little uncomfortable enthusiastically attributing my good fortune to God. At the same time, I recall the point of making the decision to proceed when the thought came seemingly unbidden that, after everything we had done and suffered so far to have the best chance of full cure, it would seem unwise to take on additional risk after trying so hard to minimize the risk. In hindsight, that thought seems almost prophetic. My own story isn't complete, so it's too soon to make final declarations. And I'm still very much aware that not everyone experiences these little miracles, and I have no explanation for why. But I am grateful today for a very small thing that makes me feel more confident in my future.
    3 points
  16. mikbone

    BYU vs. Oregon

    Anyone getting excited? Il’m stoked.
    3 points
  17. mikbone

    Mercy

    We know that everyone who comes to earth will be resurrected. Some may feel that that is an unconditional arrangement. That is incorrect. We fought in the pre-mortal existence for this opportunity. And becaused we fought and prevailed with Jehovah, we conditionally recievied the opportunity to come to Earth, be born, tested, die, and resurrected. Where we go after the resurrection is conditional upon our performance of said test.
    3 points
  18. Vort

    Mercy

    A worthwhile distinction. The world (and many in the Kingdom) seem to believe that mercy is the opposite, or at least the antithesis, of justice. Not so. The scriptures certainly contrast the two, but the underlying theme is that mercy cannot rob justice. There is no true mercy without justice, and I believe that justice includes true mercy as one of its constituent elements.
    3 points
  19. laronius

    Mercy

    If we are talking about granting mercy as purely a means for avoiding the demands of justice then mercy without conditions is the most merciful. We see this enacted on behalf of those who live without the law, such as little children. But if we are talking about mercy as a tool for progression then conditions are necessary otherwise there is no progress and the mercy has not fulfilled it's purpose.
    3 points
  20. Pleasure to be here. I'm a convert since 2013 after studying Christianity seriously for a number of years. The shroud of Turin was the thing that pushed me over the edge to want to be baptised then a little while later it was the church of Jesus Christ that made sense. I'm currently looking into starting a new life in Utah but this will need a lot of planning and a heart to heart with my other half and a few other things.
    3 points
  21. 1. Different church authorities have gone in different directions on this. But it really doesn’t matter to us, because the fall narrative primarily explains the fallen state of man—our own struggles with death and illness, our own spiritual natures and wrestle with sin, our own alienation from and desire for reconciliation with God. 2. At this point, I really couldn’t give three craps about what you say about other churches’ beliefs. I have no reason to believe you are representing their beliefs with any more understanding, accuracy, or honesty than you’ve represented our own. Other belief systems will ultimately stand approved of God (or not) on their own merits. But as for our beliefs: It is not Adam’s and Eve’s disobedience that Latter-day Saints celebrate. As I said to you nearly two months ago: The most handy modern-life analogue I can think of is a couple who breaks the law of chastity and, on learning that the woman has become pregnant, marry and keep the child; over the years finding joy and rejoicing in their child and in parenthood generally. The Lord turned a bad decision into something that served His purpose and, in His mercy, offered forgiveness and redemption to the sinners. But His mercy does not mean that the sin was not sin or that, were the sinners given the chance to go back in time to repeat or avoid their sin, they would not be expected to chose a more directly-righteous course. Adam and Eve repented of their sins. You seem to be doubling down on yours; and I would advise you to stop.
    3 points
  22. NoMiddleName

    The queen

    She was indeed a driver. One of my favourite stories of her Majesty was when some Sheikh went to visit her at Buckingham Palace. At the time his country had a dull view on women, especially on the subject of being worthy enough to hold a drivers licence. So she asks the Sheikh if he'd like to see some prized horses down by the stables to which he agreed. The Sheikh, the Queen and her butler all head out to the court yard where a Range Rover sat. The butler opened the rear door and got himself buckled in. The Sheikh being accustomed to cars that are driven on the left side thought he'd do the right thing and offer to drive as a show of respect to her Majesty, but when he got in and sat down he looked over to see her Majesty clutching the wheel with a big smile on her face and twinkle in her eye. It was driven from the right hand side. She told him to remember his seat belt and went on what the Sheikh later called a '' Spirited and exuberant drive '' around the property. Her majesty making sure to hit every single bump and lean into every corner. Her majesty commented on how women are more capable of driving a car and being of benefit to the country. This encounter is what is thought to be the catalyst to women getting drivers licences in the Sheikhs part of the world. It's an example of her soft power being used to maximum effect. Rest easy Ma'am.
    3 points
  23. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution. It accords pretty strongly with LDS scripture (particularly Isaiah 53 and Alma’s sermon to Corianton), but at the moment I’m gravitating towards “penal substitution-lite” in the sense that I think the “punishment” for committing a sin tends to be simply enduring the natural consequences of that sin, rather than God inflicting some otherwise-unrelated condition upon us that is calculated to cause otherwise-unnatural pain and thereby appease the demands of justice.
    3 points
  24. NeuroTypical

    The queen

    I'm grateful for the Queen's decision to remove prince andrew's patronages and military titles, as a result of his abuse of underage Epstein Island girls. Not all mommies have the strength to help provide consequences to their criminal abuser children. Queen Elizabeth II's legacy includes having that strength. That is not a small thing.
    3 points
  25. mikbone

    The queen

    3 points
  26. NoMiddleName

    The queen

    She was a rare breed and will leave a massive hole to fill. She did her duty to the very end and found her rest in her beloved Scotland. I'm sure the usual suspects will be along to take their passive aggressive digs just shortly, but she will be sorely missed. Long live the King.
    3 points
  27. LDSGator

    The queen

    We’re praying for your country my friend.
    3 points
  28. I've always viewed it as a temper tantrum.
    3 points
  29. mordorbund

    Alma 41:10

    I see what kingdom you assigned cats to…. Here, enjoy a post from past-me:
    3 points
  30. Vort

    Non LDS GF

    My opinions only, obviously. How long? Now is a good time to be looking toward raising a family. Everything you do (like, literally, every decision you make) should be with that end in mind. As for your girlfriend, personal compatibility between spouses is tremendously important to a good marriage. But it's not the only thing, and not even the most important. Shared values are the bedrock of any intimate relationship, with marriage being the prime example. It sounds like you're a Latter-day Saint. If a girl you're dating, however wonderful, is truly "100% against Christianity", to my mindset that's an obvious dealbreaker. Please note that I am not urging you to leave the relationship. Rather, I'm trying to provide honest and pointed feedback. You cannot and will not change her mind or attitude. Only she and the Spirit of God can do that. If the nature of your relationship with this young woman is sexual, then to be blunt, you are living after the manner of the world. There is no lasting happiness in such an arrangement. You really need to get that sorted out before you will significantly progress in the spiritual journey you want to take. As for Utah, it is a beautiful place, both in nature and in society. I think it's a special place (no sarcasm intended). It certainly was and is for me. But ultimately, it's just a place, and its inhabitants, however friendly, are just people. Do as you feel you are led to do, but don't imagine that going to Utah is like going to heaven. Saints raised in Utah tend to call it "Zion" and everywhere else "the mission field." Eliza R. Snow's urging might have some applicability here: Think not, when you gather to Zion, your troubles and trials are through, That nothing but comfort and pleasure are waiting in Zion for you. No, no, 'tis designed as a furnace, all substance, all textures to try, To burn all the "wood, hay, and stubble," the gold from the dross purify. Think not, when you gather to Zion, that all will be holy and pure; That fraud and deception are banished, and confidence wholly secure. No, no, for the Lord our Redeemer has said that the tares with the wheat Must grow till the great day of burning shall render the harvest complete. Think not, when you gather to Zion, the saints here have nothing to do But to look to your personal welfare, and always be comforting you. No, those who are faithful are doing what they find to do with their might; To gather the scattered of Israel they labor by day and by night. Think not, when you gather to Zion, the prize and the victory won. Think not that the warfare is ended, the work of salvation is done. No, no, for the great prince of darkness a tenfold exertion will make, When he sees you go to the fountain, where freely the truth you may take.
    3 points
  31. 1. I have (twice) asked what you think God intended for humankind after the fall, and your answer focuses on what He intended before the fall. Fortunately, you finally sort of get around to answering my question 1 in your latest response to question 2. 2. When you say “They experience happiness in their life but also experience misery due to consequences which began with the Fall”—I agree with this. And that’s what changed between Gen 3:16 and Moses 5:10-11: experience. That’s why Eve came to understand that the fall was not an unmitigated disaster. It is interesting to me that you ask @person0 what “the curse of Adam” in Moroni 8:8 refers to, and then—without waiting for a response, and in your very next post, carry on as if you know exactly what it means. Your question to person0 is especially interesting when you have proven in the past to be so industriously resourceful at finding obscure LDS pedagogical materials—but are somehow ignorant of the church-published youth seminary manuals that define this term as the separation between man and God that was a result of the fall. What I am concerned about in this particular thread, is that even though Mormonism pretty clearly describes the Fall as a mixed blessing you seem heck-bent on straw-manning the Mormon teaching as pronouncing the Fall as being either all good or all bad—and then you try to play “gotcha” by confronting us with LDS scriptures, sermons, and teaching materials that don’t line up with the caricature of us that you’ve created using hyper-technical semantic interpretations of a language (English) that is neither the original language of the most of the source documents, nor (as I believe you’ve freely acknowledged) is even your own first language. It all comes across as deeply disingenuous. So, let me try to put this as clearly as I can: The fall of Adam had both positive and negative effects. Positive and necessary long-term effects included: enabling procreation, permitting spiritual growth by introducing an element of opposition, and heightening humankind’s ability to enjoy the good by making it possible to actually experience the bad. Negative short-term effects included allowing humankind to experience pain, despair, and sin; wresting humankind from their innocent state, and bringing about an alienation from God that—if one does not repent and turn to Christ—can become permanent. Different scriptures, sermons, and church instructional materials will focus on different aspects of the fall, whether positive or negative; depending on the attitudes, priorities, and praxis that a particular speaker is trying to elicit within a particular audience at a particular moment in time; and may be influenced additionally by whatever secular/literary traditions (whether accurate or errant) that the speaker’s particular culture may have ascribed to the story of the fall.
    3 points
  32. Since I've had a few people ask me about meals that can be made without electricity - Check the shelf-stable meats aisle of your local grocery store. There are a number of pouched meal options available nowadays, such as seasoned tuna and seasoned chicken. You can simply pop open the pouch, spread it on a sandwich, and you have protein on the go. https://www.heb.com/product-detail/starkist-chicken-creations-classic-bbq-pouch-2-6-oz/3531028 For example, you have this name-brand product, which is chicken in barbecue sauce. https://www.heb.com/product-detail/starkist-tuna-creations-honey-bbq-tuna-pouch-2-6-oz/1964757 Or there's this name-brand tuna in barbecue sauce, which I actually had for lunch earlier in order to try it out. It's not the best thing around, but it's relatively inexpensive shelf-stable protein that actually tastes pretty decent. edit - https://www.heb.com/product-detail/isadora-original-refried-beans-15-2-oz/1533976 Pouched refried beans are also a thing, so you have a vegetarian protein source as well. Again, just pop open the pouch (you're supposed to boil-in-pouch, but it's refried beans...) and spread it on bread.
    2 points
  33. NoMiddleName

    Born Again

    I had a somewhat scattered but entertaining discussion with a born again gentleman. I didn't catch his whole backstory as he was jibbering and jabbering too much. After I had gone on to explain that my over all goal was to move to the states and be with my people, possibly starting my life as a saint properly and settling down, he rather condescendingly informed me that I would be '' planting a generation of hellbound seeds ''. The discussion ( although random ) was civil enough but I was mildly amused at him thinking he could shake my testimony. He had just been dispensing all manner of flyers and pamphlets about this and that. I haven't had a good talk with someone from a random encounter since the Jehovas about four years ago. Anybody else have any tips or stories regarding such people. Normally I'd keep walking but today I had some time to kill and the summer hasn't left us altogether so it was pleasant enough for a stop and talk.
    2 points
  34. NeuroTypical

    Fetal Hearbeat

    First priority: I should be able to clip my fingernails and have moles and warts and tumors and parasites removed. Bodily autonomy is a core foundation of liberty and freedom. Also First priority: Human beings, especially the weak and defenseless ones, must be protected by society and law. Humans get equal protection under the law - also a core foundation of liberty and freedom. So when does the reproductive cycle create a human, deserving of equal protection under the law? Pretty much nobody advocates extending the status of personhood to a sperm, or an egg. Few believe a fertilized egg or multicelled blastocyst is a human. As the thing grows and matures, more and more people cross the "okay it's a person now" line. Every stage crossed, brings more and more into the "it's a person" camp: A beating heart, the ability to feel pain, brain activity, indications of having a sleep pattern, reactions that indicate familiarity to certain sounds. By the time of viability (the ability to survive outside the womb), pretty much everyone has joined the camp. You can find some, here and there, who believe a woman should have a right to abort her born and independently living child, but probably in similar numbers as those who believe spilling seed is mass murder. There should be room for exceptions, like the 14 year old who escapes from her evil father, in the 3rd trimester carrying his child, a child that will not survive for long and will likely kill the mother during birth. God drops hints that can be interpreted in various ways. He doesn't settle the matter for us. The church does what it always does in the lack of clear and unambiguous revelation - it's best. In such a situation, it makes sense to let the states (or the people), make up their own minds. Folks of similar views can go live amongst others of similar stripes, if it's that important to them. So let Cali and Colorado be on the late end of things, and let Georgia and Mississippi be on the early end of things, and everyone else can argue about weeks, and yell in all caps, and crowbar as much emotion or reason into their arguments as they wish. And they can vote in their states, and the strongest voices will win in that state. And folks can argue about jumping states for abortions. That's better than the federal government telling everyone what to do.
    2 points
  35. Backroads

    BYU vs. Oregon

    I don't know if I'm disappointed by the fans as a whole and thought the apology was right and good. But the article I saw said someone reached out to an Oregon alumni who said it should be overlooked because the problematic fans were freshman. That does leave me wonder what they generally think.
    2 points
  36. I found an interesting linguistic quirk in verse 39. The Greek word for "love" is "universal/godly love". But there is also a word for "righteous self-love" (GR: storge). It is interesting that the word "love" does not accompany the word "thyself". It is merely implied. Storge is the Greek word that says it is ok to take care of yourself. It recognizes that if you neglect your self-care, then you will be in no condition to take care of others. So, in this light, it seems that the idea of "Charity" is external, while "Storge" is internal. But they are basically opposite sides of the same coin. Take care of yourself, so that you are in a good position to take care of others. This is Godly love.
    2 points
  37. So, are men just useless now? It seems that society seems to think so, and it appears as though the church is beginning to think it as well. Men are not allowed to be men. I have been thinking about this since it is men that are always expected to risk their lives in dangerous work and in wars. They are expected to give everything thing they have, even their own lives with no real reward for all that they do. I am so tired of seeing men discounted and tossed away for all that they do.
    2 points
  38. There might be other things at play (a recent spirited discussion elsewhere on what "sad heaven" means, for example), but I found the article interesting. Reactions: 1) One common reaction to any talk or essay on the topic is to reflect on our general and long-standing discomfort with universalism. As I understand the history, one of the biggest obstacles to 19th century saints accepting "The Vision" (as D&C 76 was affectionately called back then) was that they felt it was too universalist and they were uncomfortable with that. We eventually got past this issue with D&C 76, but we never did fully resolve our uncomfortable and complicated relationship with universalism. 2) Specific to Br. Goddard's essay, the thing that stood out to me (even above his use of exclamation marks) was his push against a "hierarchical, linear way of thinking" about the afterlife. I saw similar intimations in Pres. Oaks's April Sunday Afternoon talk, so I have been contemplating for the past 6 months this idea that maybe celestial, terrestrial, telestial -- rather than being in a happy, happier, happiest hierarchy -- are more different kinds of equivalent happiness. If everyone is so completely and perfectly happy where they end up, maybe it isn't necessarily better to be celestial? 3) While Br. Goddard didn't mention any "sad heaven" scenarios, I naturally reflected on my own "sad heaven." As Elder Holland told PBS, heaven just won't be heaven without my wife and children, but my wife and children have all left the church. Some (pointing to some statements by Pres. Nelson) will claim that, barring repentance during this life, my family will not make it to the CK. Will I be happier in the TrK or TlK with them (even if marriage/family is somehow "dissolved") than I would be single in the CK? Sometimes, in "eternal polygamy" circles, someone will talk about doing a little bit less than their best so they can avoid the CK and any threat of needing to enter polygamous relationship -- figuring they will be happier single in a lower kingdom than in a higher kingdom sharing a spouse or having multiple spouses. If the kingdoms are more horizontal and less vertical, then maybe these are less concerning? 4) Whenever these topics come up, I am often reminded of Joseph Smith's quote (paraphrased because I choose not to look it up to get it exactly right) about finding eternal truth by proving contraries. I sometimes wonder what real truths are lingering in these seeming contradictions between our universalistic beliefs and our non-univerlastic beliefs (is there a better opposite term for not universalism?).
    2 points
  39. I like everything about the article except the author’s gratuitous use of the exclamation mark. 😉
    2 points
  40. I view the wheat and tares parable as referring to the entire world, whereas the parable of the olive trees as just the church.
    2 points
  41. Still_Small_Voice

    For Mirkwood

    They disabled a normal user's access to view dislikes on YouTube. I think it is because certain people were trying to push a narrative on YouTube and a large part of the common population was rejecting it.
    2 points
  42. Jamie123

    Just my luck...

    Since posting this the thoughts have come flooding and I think I'm ready. Thanks to anyone who prayed for me!
    2 points
  43. Since @Carborendum is going to pull me into this, I'm going to suggest that the incredulity might be somewhat misplaced. It doesn't look to me that Tai is trying to reinvent calculus, because her notational development doesn't include any attempt to generalize to formulae. Her method is focused on curves. The difference being that a formula has a known and well define structure. A curve may just be the line that goes through a set of observed data. When looking for the area under an empirical curve for which you have no defined structure, your options are to estimate a curve or to break the curve into shapes and add up the areas of the shapes. The two general approaches both have advantages and disadvantages with respect to what kinds of biases they introduce. (bias being the mathematical term for "difference from the true value"). When measuring something like glucose tolerance, the end point can be affected by diet, enzyme activity, food and liquid intake, etc. And with inconsistencies in when a person eats from day to day, you might have to develop a new equation for each person every single day. It would be absurd to do this for a lot of reasons, so working with the empirical curve is the most practical thing to do here. Tai's method, then, is an approach to getting the area under the empirical curve (as opposed to the theoretical curve). Her approach is an algorithm for forming the regions, areas, and their sum from a set of known points on a cartesian coordinate system. That is to say, she isn't proposing the trapezoidal rule as being novel, but the algorithm for processing it may be novel. Objectively, her algorithm is working better than the algorithms she compares against. Therefore, it would appear to have some interest in the field. Why would it have interest in the field? Probably because the software available to people in this field is limited in what it is able to do. (you can complain about this if you like. Certainly, there is software in the world that can do these calculations already. But a lot of them require programming experience, which may not be accessible to physicians or the software programs being used). So here's the point I'm trying to make. It looks like Tai is trying to solve an industry problem, not a mathematical problem. Side note: There was some talk about the difference of trapezoidal rule vs rectangular rule. The difference between the two only matters with empirical curves. But once you start taking the limit as the width of the shape goes to zero, then the solutions converge to each other.
    2 points
  44. Vort

    The queen

    As I wrote in another thread: I'm not an avid follower or lover of the English monarchy, but FWIW, I thought Elizabeth brought intelligence, common sense, elegance, and extremely good manners to a position which, while having little or no real executive or legislative power, certainly holds important sway in international and domestic (UK) affairs. (No pun intended on the "affairs" part.) She will be missed. We can only hope that her son, King Charles, will rise above the conduct he has displayed for most of his adult life and instead follow his mother's example.
    2 points
  45. I am not as ardently attached to the penal substitution theory of atonement as I used to be. But, the contradiction you cite never really bothered me—it just reiterated why nothing less than an infinite atonement was necessary and why no one less than a God could have done it.
    2 points
  46. mikbone

    Alma 41:10

    We don’t really believe in a location of hell. We recognize that spirit prison is what many other religions refer to as hell. It is temporary. The Telestial Kingdom is a state of Glory. Outer Darkness is a state that other religions likely do not appreciate. No Glory. We don’t know what it is like there. But definitely no light or influence from God.
    2 points
  47. Well, the verse says Though, there are some that would call me rather extreme in what I do or do not do (for example, I don't watch R-rated movies, and even PG ones are things I am very cautious about, most have too much violence or other material that I find inappropriate), I think the extremely strict ones go further than just nothing that is called Tea. I have been rather cautious around ANY HOT DRINKS, but it is something I do personally and don't impose on others. I normally avoid any hot drink including Hot Chocolate, as well as soups that are overly hot as well. It is up to each in their own interpretation beyond anything that our leaders have said. Just like some years ago when others tried to say it was caffeine or tannin or other items on why we should not drink coffee or tea, those who said we should avoid ALL hot drinks would talk about throat cancer and the build up of scar tissue for those who drank very hot items. The scalding would cause damage to the throat and eventually could cause a cancer there. These are excuses though, obviously. The reason we don't drink hot drinks or coffee or tea is because we have been told not to by our leaders. Other than that, it is up to our own individual interpretations. I still have soup, but normally don't eat it if it is extremely hot or scalding, preferring to let it cool down first. It is a personal preference of my own interpretation. I have known plenty of others that drink Herbal teas or coffee substitutes.
    2 points
  48. There seems to be a conflict when we read “Men are, that they might have joy” vs. “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.” Unless you recognize that the Lord wants us to learn how to hit a curve ball and delight in so doing.
    2 points
  49. Vort

    Non LDS GF

    FTR, Eliza R. Snow was a sister to Lorenzo Snow, the fifth president of the Restored Church of Christ and a contemporary of Joseph Smith. She was a gifted poet and quite a spiritual person, sometimes unofficially referred to as "the prophetess". She wrote several hymns, at least two of which are in our current hymnal: "How Great the Wisdom and the Love" and "O My Father". The above poem, "Think Not, When You Gather to Zion", is also written as a hymn. It was in our hymnals when I was growing up, but apparently the 1985 (current) hymnal doesn't have it. Pity.
    2 points
  50. We already know that the locket and daguerreotype in question were created in the 1940's “We concur that the daguerreotype and locket were created of the materials and methods appropriate to the 1840s. However, as nothing is definitively known about the locket’s history before 1992, we cannot draw a conclusion about who is pictured in the daguerreotype. We welcome the recent publication of the image and hope it will prompt the discovery of additional information helpful to determining its authenticity.” Official statement from the Church We know that Joseph Smith had the means, motive, and opportunity to have his daguerreotype taken and placed into this locket. I'm not sure that you can say the same about someone in Bertha Madison Smith's lineage. Im my mind there are 3 possibilities: 1) The daguerreotype and locket are legitimate. Possibly Emma Smith bent over the finial to keep Joseph to herself. 😎 2) It may be a legitimate mistake and it could be someone else that was dear to the Smith Family that had his picture taken during the 1840's who had 19 of 21 measured features matching with a 95% confidendce interval the death mask of Joseph Smith Jr. 3) It could be a masterful hoax. And Dan Larsen could be doing this for the filthy lucre. I like it for Joseph Smith. This guy in the middle has seen some stuff. The forehead of the first 2 images are uncanny (hairline left side comes to a corner, right side is rounded. frown crease next to the left eyebrow). Also notice that Joseph shows more of his right ear than the left. The hair and clothes are a perfect match. As for comparison with the death mask, deep set eyes, nose, & intraocular distance are the same. When a person expires the jaw opens, the masseter muscle no longer has tone and the distance between the cheek bones and the chin elongates (this is why the mortitian almost always wires the jaw shut).
    2 points