laronius

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laronius last won the day on April 7

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About laronius

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  1. laronius

    Sanctuary of the Church

    For my previous bishop this was the constant dilemma he faced: increased reverence vs fostering ward unity, which like it or not often happens before and after sacrament mtg. Then the stake encouraged bishoprics to be on the stand to set the mood but there was always people coming in who either hadn't been there for a while or something and so the bishop would leave the stand to welcome them and so it just never really worked out.
  2. laronius

    Matthew 11:29 - 30

    I think there are many facets to this verse, as there seems to be with much of the teachings of Jesus. I like clwnuke's interpretation relating to the atonement. I also think that the term "easy" is relative. This promise is being made to those who "labour, and are heavy laden" so Christ's yoke will feel significantly lighter than what we would labor under otherwise. And it still is a yoke and there still is a burden to be borne so it's not a removal of work or responsibility just not the kind that will weigh us down like sin does. Kind of like the Sabbath being a day of "rest" when it can be filled with so much spiritual work. There's also the promise that "who the Lord calls the Lord qualifies." I think in many instances it is not the work that is lightened but rather it is our strength and ability that has increased that makes the work easy and light.
  3. laronius

    What if Being One Doesn't Mean What We Think?

    Great thought Vort. To me that is the essence of the law of consecration, Zion, the second great commandment, and especially the at-one-ment:: a shared experience. Which is an essential element in the development and growth of that most divine attribute of them all: love. We experience it all the time. As we share experiences with people a bond forms. The ultimate manifestation of this principle is found in the suffering of Christ as he shared our suffering with us. In turn he asks that we share his yoke. I think if we truly understood this principle all manifestations of selfishness (the opposite of oneness) would be far less appealing.
  4. laronius

    What if Being One Doesn't Mean What We Think?

    The irony of using the word "with" with "one" is that it automatically implies more than one. If I say I am "one with" nature then I am making a distinction between me and nature. That's not a true oneness. But we understand the intended point so we don't really think about it. But a true oneness, to me, would ultimately lead to a loss of individual identity. In the gospel of Jesus Christ this is brought to fruition through taking upon us the name of Christ and all that implies. We don't physically become Christ but our identity is swallowed up in him.
  5. laronius

    The Beast

    I think your points are valid and ultimately what should concern us the most. What others can do to us physically or temporally is of far lesser importance than what we do to ourselves spiritually. The true beast is ultimately no more than the natural man within us. That it is displayed on hands and foreheads would indicate an individual whose life is governed by their baser passions. But as is often the case fulfillment of prophecy can have multiple layers to it and so the beast may very well manifest itself in any number of ways.
  6. laronius

    The Beast

    I've never been of the opinion that the mark was literal but rather figurative like much of John's writings. With physical money going away as we transition into the digital age it is becoming increasingly easier for those in power to put a hold on the finances of those that oppose them. Just ask those who try to run from the IRS. If John wanted to be literal he should have said the mark would be on their right bum cheek. 😆
  7. laronius

    When do I teach my kids anti?

    Part of the problem while growing up in the church for youth is that their testimony is often nebulous. They have felt the Spirit and their testimony is growing but it isn't connected to anything concrete and so when the seed of doubt gets sown they don't have specific experiences to fall back on and say "I know it's true because..." This isn't to say they aren't having experiences but they often aren't really recognizing what it means and how they are progressing along Alma 32s faith to knowledge process. So while learning about the tactics of antis can be helpful I think it's even more important to help them solidify in their own minds exactly what they are experiencing in the gospel and what it means. That way no matter what tactic the anti takes your child can say "Well I don't know about that, but here's what I do know..."
  8. laronius

    Demands of Justice

    I approached the topic using the language the scriptures often use, often painting the idea of justice as an "animate being" as you state. In fact they even refer to it's demands as "his" in one place. But I believe this is only done to make the point that justice is independent in the sense that it can't simply be ignored or pushed aside and it was only in that context that I intended my remarks to be taken. I appreciate everyone's remarks and I wish I could respond to them all but time does not allow right now. I understand the desire represented in some of the comments to not focus so much on the nitty gritty of the subject lest we lose sight of what the real message in all this is and believe me when I say that is not lost on me. But I still like to understand the nitty gritty when that knowledge is available. As I thought about this topic throughout this week I came to realize the issue isn't one of what is happening so much as it is when it happens or in other words when are the demands of justice satisfied. The most important answer to that question would be phrased in terms of repentance, change of heart, atonement and mercy. But there is also the element of order, as I talked about before, where Christ pays for sins to appease the demands of justice and yet until "repentance, change of heart, atonement, and mercy" have full sway in our hearts justice is still exacting it's demands, notwithstanding the fact that Christ has already appeased those demands. So as I thought more about this idea of order or timing it dawned on me that one of the incomprehensible aspects of the atonement of Jesus Christ is in fact timing. How could Jesus pay for sins that have not yet (as we view it) even been committed yet? The answer to this question is beyond our current comprehension except to recognize that all things are present before God in one eternal now. So with that being the case I think we could apply this same understanding to the demands of justice. While from our mortal perspective the demands of justice are still being demanded long after Christ has satisfied them, from God's perspective no such separation of time exists. And while I don't fully comprehend how that is I'm good with that.
  9. laronius

    Demands of Justice

    So is what you both are saying is that if someone rejects the atonement then justice will reject Christ's payment for their sins? If not then why in hell (literally speaking 😀) is justice still exacting it's demands on the unrepentant sinner if it has already accepted Christ's payment on their behalf?
  10. laronius

    Demands of Justice

    I think this is an apt analogy. I have often thought that because God authored the plan then he could also set the conditions of redemption but your point of his having allowed sin would seem to imply a certain degree of liability thus enabling him to make intercession as the guarantor of the plan. I think that is a great point.
  11. laronius

    Demands of Justice

    Yes, yes, yes! Now I think you and I are seeing eye to eye here. It's not a question of veracity of doctrine. If that's what the scriptures teach then I believe it, even if don't fully understand it. But I want to understand if possible. So I question why is that the way it is or even what am I missing because I'm not able to reconcile certain points with my current understanding. I think it is noteworthy that, save for the sons of perdition who reject Christ and his atonement, hell is not a final destination for anyone. Everyone will eventually conform to a law and will then inherit that kingdoms glory. So at that point I think it's safe to say the demands of justice are satisfied. So perhaps Christ having "already" satisfied the demands of justice is predicated on the assurance of that future event but in the meanwhile justice remains in force to carry out it's part in the great plan of our Father.
  12. laronius

    Demands of Justice

    If every sin is essentially already paid for (in a way we can't comprehend) what does justice care if it's our last sin or not? And why would it demand payment from us when our Savior has already paid every single penny of debt? I don't disagree with this point but if justice has already been satisfied then from what do we need mercy to protect us? I hope I'm not coming off as playing devil's advocate nor am I questioning the truths taught in the Church. I'm just seeking understanding and that usually requires asking questions first. I have a testimony of the big picture, now I'm fleshing out the details.
  13. laronius

    Demands of Justice

    Do we even know what the demands of justice are? We say that Jesus suffered for our sins but do we even know what that entails? In D&C 19:20 the Lord states that the withdrawing of his Spirit is but to suffer as he did in the least degree. But beyond losing the Spirit (at least what we experience in this life) is generally just a hardening of the heart, a lack of feeling in general, not the great suffering we read about in Mosiah 2:38.
  14. laronius

    Demands of Justice

    “[Jesus Christ] gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth” (“The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles”) D&C 19:17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Mosiah 2:38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. So if justice demands payment and Jesus has already suffered for the sins of all men/women thereby satisfying the demands of justice why does justice yet have hold on the unrepentant person? Isn't that like double payment, which seems contrary to the whole idea of justice?
  15. laronius

    New Wine

    God rarely thrusts knowledge on to people. Rather he sends it when people ask for it. The word of wisdom was revealed when Joseph Smith specifically prayed for guidance on the use of tobacco in their meetings. Though I imagine there was likely some prompting going on prior to this to make Joseph question it's use. The revelation on new wine may in fact have helped begin that mental process of wondering if some substances ought to be avoided.