Traveler

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Traveler last won the day on November 15

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About Traveler

  • Rank
    Senior Member
  • Birthday 08/22/1946

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  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Sandy Utah
  • Interests
    Science, Cycling, Skiing, (outdoors in general), Liberty and Gospel Doctrine.
  • Religion
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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  1. Traveler

    Make the Forums Great Again

    Or anywhere else with a strange accent. The Traveler
  2. Traveler

    Spiritual Bypassing

    Good to hear from @The Folk Prophet. Thanks for this thread. It is my personal opinion that regardless of how useful and good something is - someone will fine a way to apply it badly. Likewise regardless of how bad something is - someone will find something useful for it. My dad use to say, "No one is useless - they can always be used as a bad example. A couple of thought from me: As we search for truth we should be open to new ideas and expanding our understand. We shouldn't be limiting our options. I think this is one of the good points of the article. I am not sure where the line is between "hiding behind religion" and exercising faith. I can tell the differences at the far ends of such a spectrum. I do understand that people will "hide" behind religious notions thinking it is an exercise of faith. It is most obvious when talking to those of a different religious nature. Though I try to avoid such myself - I have been caught red handed and it is most difficult to admit such and come clean. Emotions are an enigma to me. Whenever I hear someone say that they will follow their heart - I am sure a train wreak is likely to happen. My personal experiences are that emotions left to their own devices never turn out well - especially if logic is ignored or diminished. I believe this applies to religion as well. Upholding religion based on emotion seldom is a good idea. If religion cannot be squared with logic - it is likely not really a problem of faith but more likely to be a problem of misunderstanding and misdirection. Dealing with emotions outside of logic is not dealing with emotions. This is my #1 problem with physiology - dealing with emotions without logic or thinking it is logical us be emotional void of logic. The Traveler
  3. Traveler

    Make the Forums Great Again

    I believe there is a greater need for a forum such as this one - more than ever before. But I am not sure that something needed is something utilized. We live in a culture of intolerance that is becoming more and more dominate. I started posting on forums many decades ago (Dr. Laura) because of the anti LDS posts. I was asked to become involved. What has happened is that in "efforts" to become more tolerant we have become less tolerant of opposing ideas. Some call this current trend - the cancel culture. Which is: If someone disagrees with you it is because they think you are evil crud and one must respond in kind. As a culture it is becoming an act of inferiority or stupidity to allow alternate opinions. Of course there are always the opposite examples (like @prisonchaplain). I have personally experimented with him to see where his boundaries of tolerance may lie but he has never taken that challenge. And through it all he seems to see more similarities than differences in our religious faiths. There is a old saying: "If you can not say nothing good about no body - it is more better you no say nothing!" We do not have to respond to every challenge or answer every question. I would personally prefer that the forum be more liberal concerning toxic posts - but the problem is that someone feel that they have to set trolls right. Which is exactly what the trolls want and why they post. If no one responded to such posts - they would no longer post. It does seem to me that if someone posts a truthful and inspired post - it may be read by many but few will respond. Say something offensive, foolish re unusually stupid and everybody will jump in with anger and things will quickly spiral out of control. Which is exactly the purpose of trolls - and may I add Satan and his followers? I think Jesus said some interesting things about trolls when he said, "Love your enemies and do good to those that despitefully use you." But then Jesus was quit strong in his rebuke of the Pharisees. So here is my advice - never respond to any post in anger. If you want to tell someone off - take a day off, pray about it then write a response. If you heart is not full of love towards those you are addressing - save your post for another 24 hours - pray again about what you have written. If you are still upset - then do not respond - rather find a post with which you agree and post a thanks. BTW - @pam Thanks for starting this thread. The Traveler
  4. Traveler

    Isaiah Translation

    I am not personally a student of marital arts beyond initial training I received while in the military. It is my understanding that Tae Kwon Do is a modern marital arts form somewhat based in more ancient traditions of Eastern Culture - most of which come from Buddhist traditions. While working in Japan I became friendly with an engineer that was a lay Buddhist monk from Zen tradition. I spent a great deal of my leisure time becoming more familiar with Buddhists rites and traditions. Walking through a Buddhist cemetery and being familiar with rites associated with the transition from mortal life to a "next" existence - a Latter-day Saint can easily realize that there are connection between poses of Buddhists statues (particular to hands and arms) and sacred covenants of the restoration. I do admit that I am not a Tae Kwon Do expert but I have some experience with the bowing tradition of Eastern Culture. Bowing is not just a greeting but a recognition of respect not just of the person being greeted but a promise to to behave, maintain and uphold rules or principles of "good" behavior. In short bowing is a act which demonstrates a personal commitment to a covenant. Sometime bowing is a simple lowering of one's head. I have assumed that the Book of Mormon references to a "stiff nick" person, people or generation is symbolic of someone that refuses to submit themselves to G-d and his covenants. If there is another purpose in bowing that you have encountered - I would be most interested in what you have learned that it means. The Traveler
  5. Traveler

    Who is G-d that I should know Him.

    I do not know any person that qualifies for the reference in Revelation 14:9-11. I do not doubt that there is such a being or beings. I have talked directly to a fellow that claimed to worship the devil - but the more I talked to him the more I was certain he was confused about a lot concerning religion and did not qualify for what is talked about in the Book of Revelation. I have never met anyone that I thought was beyond G-d's mercy. Perhaps you have someone in mind? But like I made reference to before - I have herd many talk about such things but never have I met someone that thought they deserve that kind of thing. For all I know - this may reference Lucifer and that part of heaven that followed him. The Traveler
  6. Traveler

    Isaiah Translation

    It is not directly in scripture text - I assumed that you have made covenants at the temple. The Traveler
  7. Traveler

    Does God feel gratitude?

    There is a term is science called "tightly coupled". What this means that two things which are different are joined together in such a way that in separating them destroys their individual properties. For example a man and a woman tightly coupled in the covenant of marriage become "one". This implies that the "fullness" if each is only achieved the the union of the two (or all involved). This is often expressed at the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. I believe being thankful or having gratitude is tightly coupled to having love for someone or something. So without gratitude for someone we cannot love them and vice verse with out love for someone we cannot have gratitude for them. In other threads there has been talk of divine punishments for the wicked - but I understand punishments as separate from consequences but rather added to consequences. For me, it is a misunderstanding to believe that G-d is adds punishments out of anger and hatred towards those that do evil. Rather, out of love and gratitude he allows and fosters agency - and then out of love and gratitude grants the desires (even though G-d is not happy with the desires and choices) of those that choose differently. The Traveler
  8. Traveler

    Isaiah Translation

    @Carborendum and @maklelan - as a armature student of textual criticism I am aware of reading and variant readings of various ancient texts as well as the constant evolution of words and concepts. All of these thing can give greater understanding to scripture. However, I believe there is another context of the idea of bowing down, or abasing one's self. It is my understanding that bowing down or kneeling before a Supreme Suzerain or Magistrate of the law is a chiastic display of covenant of obedience to law. Bowing is also involved in the finalizing of covenant - a signature on the contract so to speak. I believe it is related to bowing one's head (bending of the nick) in acknowledgement of covenant - which is also related to the references in the Book of Mormon to "stiff nick". This would imply that those that do not humble themselves toward or to become subject the covenant (or Law of the Covenant) - cannot be lifted up by that covenant - regardless of their "high, average, or low standing" in the society or citizens of the covenant. In short we are debating the symbolism of covenants by focusing on the literal actions involved in covenant making rather than realizing the reference to and importance of covenant. The Traveler
  9. Traveler

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    Posted 3 hours ago @laronius Perhaps not first in terms of when it was recorded but first in the timeline is the fall of Lucifer. I agree with @laroniusthat the fall of Lucifer is the first example of divine justice. However, I have a problem with the Eden epoch as generally understood (especially among Traditional Christians) as a display of justice. Perhaps @Vort can explain or anyone???? If the fall was a demonstration of "Justice" - especially pure divine justice - How is it that every living thing on this planet suffers - not just or exclusively Adam and Even that according to the literal implications in scripture were the only beings that were involved or committed "THE TRANSGRESSION"???? By what sense of logic is this justice? The Traveler
  10. Traveler

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    When Cain murdered Able. The Traveler
  11. Traveler

    General Authorities

    I cannot - he died a while back from an automobile accident. I now must apologize for my unabashed sarcasm - he died from heart problems. The Traveler
  12. Traveler

    Who is G-d that I should know Him.

    The reason I brought up the last supper and Judas is that whenever I talk to someone of religious nature about being saved or damned (and I can say this without exception) they always think they will be saved and someone else will be damned. I wanted to draw a contrast between the average believer in G-d and the Apostles (that thought deep down, that they were not worthy). As for Judas - I am not sure that anyone knows his motives. Perhaps he did believe Jesus was the Christ and he intended to take matters unto himself and prove it to everyone by delivering Jesus into the hands of evil men. That in doing so, Judas was sure mere mortals were no match for the "Son of G-d". I believe that Judas had a change of heart and tried distance himself from what unfolded - and when he discovered that he could not - he took his own life. It would seem that what happened was not close what Judas thought would happen. I sometimes wonder if most others, when they fail to do the right thing - think nothing much of it - that it is not big deal and not to worry because G-d will forgive them. When considering justice - usually it is believed that the more a person knows what is right - the worse it is for them when they fail to do it. But in most of Christianity it seems that the less a person understand about G-d the more they are guilty and worthy to be punished by a unmerciful G-d that only gives mercy to those that know better???? The Traveler
  13. Traveler

    #GiveThanks

    As much as I believe speaking thanks is good - I do not believe that words of thanks come close to deeds of thanks. I am thankful for the freedoms and liberties of this country: I volunteered during a time of war to join the military - knowing that combat was likely and I could have avoided the draft. I am thankful for the restoration of the Gospel: I have accepted and served in every calling I have been given - even when it interfered with my education, my profession and with planned family' activities and of course --- when I did not understand why I was called (example - my calling a nursery leader when I have no idea how to deal with little children - leaving such things to my wife when our children were little). I also paid for my mission from my personal savings. I am thankful for others. I believe in service but realize than I am not mindful of such things so I make it a point to volunteer then try to be the first to arrive and last to leave. I am thankful for my personal witness of the restoration: I make an effort to witness my belief in the restoration when posting. I am thankful for many forum members: I make a conscious effort to give thanks when I disagree and I apologize if I offend. Sadly I do not often realize when I offend and so I apologize now for my lack of understanding of such things. I thought to name some but rather than do that - Thanks to you all. I am thankful for the Saints of Zion: But I must admit that often I am not certain how to express such thanks to the Saints - but I do sustain and support even business owned and operated by fellow Saints. I am thankful for the leadership in the Church: I will not speak ill or wish for anyone to be released (not any more). I will support anyone in their calling - even if they are unworthy of their calling - I know I am unworthy myself to stand in church callings as a proxy for Christ. I am thankful for all that covenant with G-d and I will stand by them especially in times of their difficulty. The Traveler
  14. Traveler

    General Authorities

    The internet and internet forums like this allow individuals to post with anonymity. I have pondered what would happen of an Apostle of Christ were to post on this forum. One of the reason I ponder such things is because GA are people - much like the rest of us. A few years back (actually more than a few) I was driving to work. Driving to work was rare for me because usually I commuted by bicycle. It was rush hour so things were a little overloaded and dicey on the road. I like to drive with some resemblance of intelligence - to avoid being injured. But I was cut off quite rudely but a driver that quite frankly kind of put my life in danger but I decided to just let it pass. Within a few minutes the exact same car cut me off a second time and there would have been an accident had I not slammed on the brakes and left rubber on the road. This time I decided I should communicate with this nut job to let them know what a bad job of driving they were doing. It took a bit to catch up and pull along side them. But when they looked over, I realized that it was my Stake President - so I just smiled and waved. I realized that normal people can upset me but when it was someone I respected - my attitude was changed. The Traveler
  15. Traveler

    Clear Communication, Sometimes LESS Clear

    In general all (known) languages are ambiguous. And some languages are more ambiguous that others. Here is a little example of the ambiguity of the English language: "The lamb is to hot to eat." What is this statement saying? What you think it is saying or what you think it means is not really that clear. Is it saying that the lamb is being eaten or is the lamb doing the eating? There are other problems with language - one has to do with the difference between written and spoken language. This particular problem is specifically noted in the Book of Mormon. It is a very interesting problem (at least to me) that this particular problem is not noted in any Biblical scriptures - but it is a part of the science of textual criticism related to the Bible. It is also interesting to me that this problem of ambiguity is exponentially increased when translating between languages - especially when translating between ancient and modern languages. Another problem with languages is that words are symbolic - they are not literal and yet the vast majority insist on interpreting words as literal. We see this in all the parlor games that play with language. The obvious problem with literal meanings is that there is not a literal "standard" for words. When someone says "tree" each individual has a literal vision of a tree in their mind's eye. It is extremely unlikely that in 20 random individuals that you will have two with the same mind's image of tree. It is my personal observation that the vast majority of arguments surrounding any topic is mostly based on this ambiguity between what was intent and what was understood. Once this become obvious to an outside observer of an argument - it become quite humorous and yet to those involved - this often escalates into hate and anger. Sadly I have learned that when this happens - that should I laugh it is going to tick others off the more - which for me become even more funny and we are in a most funny or viscous cycle depending on which side of the cycle is motivating a response. All this leads to my final response. It often seems that the greater the misunderstanding the less most want understanding. Go figure???? The Traveler