Traveler

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Traveler last won the day on August 18 2018

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About Traveler

  • Rank
    Senior Member
  • Birthday 08/22/1946

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  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Sandy Utah
  • Interests
    Science, Cycling, Skiing, (outdoors in general), Liberty and Gospel Doctrine.
  • Religion
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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  1. Traveler

    Art of the First Vision

    It is my opinion that without identifying themselves - one would not know which is the Father and which is the Son. In one of the accounts Joseph describes the pillar of light as a pillar of fire - such that he wondered why the entire grove of trees did not bust into flames. The Traveler
  2. Traveler

    Sharing and learning about personal revelation

    I believe and have experience that everyone has a spiritual gift or as otherwise said - gift of the spirit. Moroni speaks directly to this in Moroni chapter 10 right after talking about personal revelation to know that the Book of Mormon is true. Moroni uses the word "exhort" several times. I believe that through personal revelation we can recognize the spiritual gifts in others and be uplifted through their spiritual gifts. But it would seem that many argue because they think their spiritual gifts afford them greater revelation concerning some point of doctrine when someone with a different spiritual gift brings something in addition to the table. The Traveler
  3. Traveler

    Sacrament at home Q

    For me it was over 50 years ago that I was in the military. I cannot speak to what happens currently but I recall special garments were were approved only for the military. The difference was that they were the olive green color. We only had a few LDS Chaplains and it seemed they had unusual authority to approve unusual things about meetings and sacrament. However, if I recall correctly some non-LDS chaplains thought that they could approve everything the LDS chaplains could. As a result once in a while really strange things would end up occurring. One little thing I will pass on - there was a lot for prejudice towards LDS. I recall one fellow that was an ordained minister and was very much into the anti-LDS stuff. He and I had some very rough times. But it all changed suddenly when he showed up (with several others) asking for a priesthood blessing. The Traveler
  4. Traveler

    Sacrament at home Q

    I am of a slightly different opinion. There are no restrictions in visiting, helping, fellow-shipping friends and there never has been. I believe that the primary reason that there are callings within the church is because most members will not do many things they should unless they are specifically "called" to do so. Even with a calling some will complain, resist and make up excuses for their spiritual failures. The real reason home teaching numbers were low is a lack of love and faith in Christ. And the only reason numbers existed and were counted was a effort to draw priesthood holders closer to the understanding of their stewardship. One thing I learned in the military was to leave no one behind. The Traveler
  5. I was just wondering if there would be a forum get together - perhaps at some restaurant - in connection with April Conference? The Traveler
  6. Traveler

    The gathering of Israel

    I very much like your post - thank you. I would point out that "The Bible" as the cannon of scripture is not of G-d but of man. Perhaps the greatest witness of this to come forth in our modern time was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scriptures. One of the most profound witness from the Dead Sea Scriptures is that the previous classification of ancient tests and the accuracy - specifically of the Maseretic classification of texts - use to define the Bible were not and are not the most accurate of the ancient texts. There has been a great deal of excuses to mitigate this flaw. What the Dead Sea Scriptures has manifested is that the books of the Bible were never intended to be interpreted and understood as they have been by Traditional Christians. But there is enough of a witness - even from the Bible - that G-d will restore his kingdom in the light of truth, in the Last-days and prepare a "remnant" of Israel to join with Christ when he returns and overcomes evil. This will be the work of G-d through prophets and not the work of men trying to fulfill scripture. The Traveler
  7. Traveler

    BYU classroom lecture

    Not necessarily - I am only uncomfortable with the concern that it will be misunderstood. I posted something but it appears to have been lost - I will try again. Most of what is in the video I agree with and I am likewise comfortable. But there are problems - if I am to highlight what I think may be a problem - many may think I stand firmly against or for things that I am not. That seems to be most often the responses to surface understanding. Joseph Smith suggested that we teach correct principles and allow each individual to govern themselves. I believe this is at the foundation of the great divine gift of agency. There seems to be to be two important principles for the Latter-day Saints of G-d. First that we teach (by example and expression) principles of truth. The second is that we all other the privileged to govern themselves. It appears to me that the professor concentrated his remarks almost entirely on the second grand principle taught by Joseph Smith concerning agency - that principle is allow and respect others, the privileged to govern themselves. Most that argue, do so in terms of right and wrong while concentrating almost entirely on what they believe to be the first principle. And so it is (often with myself as well) that when we think we teach a correct principle - that others will govern themselves in the same manner as we would govern ourself with the understanding of such principles of truth. I believe the place of disagreement has to do with the "Law of Chasity". There are two aspects of the law spoken of in scripture. First is the "Letter" of the Law and the second is the "Spirit" of the law. I believe the great difference between man and beast is the intelligence of man. Most think emotions are separate and different from intelligence. I believe this is because often emotions are blamed for doing stupid things - but if we understand that emotions are an integral part of our intelligence - we should not attempt to disengage one from the other. We are told that the Law of Chasity is governed by the principles of sexual activity. I believe there is another principle of the Law of Chasity expressed in the divine covenant of marriage. I have learned in life that there is, from time to time, great expressions of hate and anger in how certain individuals disagree with we all should be governing ourselves. This should not be. A Saint of G-d should never be angry with how anyone governs themselves - they may properly be disappointed but when we become angry Satan has taken over our heart. I know for my self it is most difficult to discuss things in anger and maintain the spirit of G-d - so I believe Satan employs such tactic specifically for his advantage. But it seems to me that either a person shuns logic and reason and replaces such with emotion to justify the manner they govern themselves or they have not understood the correct principle to begin with. If they have not understood the principle and are seeking truth - the will embrace the truth and be glad for it. But if ruled by emotion that drives faulty logic - they will become angry if confronted with correct principles or a challenge to their behavior. My point is that whatever a person does in anger - will result in the spirit of G-d withdrawing. And without the spirit of G-d correct principles cannot be taught nor learned. The Traveler
  8. Traveler

    How's y'alls 401ks doing?

    For the first time that I can think - both stocks and real estate (apartments) are doing very poorly. Sadly I have several tenants out of work and unable to pay their rent. I am thinking the losses in the stock market are less of a problem for humanity and that kind of thing that can recover faster when things get back on track. I will not starve from the looses but I am thinking; if this gets to the point that I cannot meet expenses for the apartments - I am not sure what my tenants will do. The Traveler
  9. Traveler

    Deconstructing a Testimony

    Nothing is as good or bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so. Shakespeare. The Traveler
  10. Traveler

    The gathering of Israel

    If we take a long hard look at nearly 2000 years of history since Christ - perhaps you may understand better - I will try to add clarity. For over 1,000 years following the death of the Apostles and Christians coming to civil power there was no religious freedom. It was the year 1649 (I think) that the Toleration Act was passed that made it unlawful to kill other Christians or confiscate their property that were not of the predominate Christian sect. Without going into all the details - even this law was not passed out of love of others but in essence to avoid escalation of a war. I would also note that Charlemagne murdered more men, women and children to convert northern Europe to Christianity; that was the civil power at the time, than was killed by the dreaded black plague. I would also point out that it was almost 200 years following the Toleration Act before it was unlawful to murder and confiscate the property of anyone that believed in a religion that did not accept the Trinity. If there was an institution; that as an institution, believed in a Christ that insisted that his disciples love one another and love their neighbor as themselves - I would be most interested in seeing the proof of such institution prior to 1649. Some may claim that there were individuals that so behaved - but there was not a church to uphold such principles. For all his mass murdering Charlemagne was honored as "The Defender of the Faith" by the predominate Christian institution of his day. I would submit that the influence of the Book of Mormon as a mark in history beginning with the publication in 1830 has been profound and that most all Christian institutions of today are much more loving and compassionate towards their non-Christian neighbors - Can you think of a greater example of gathering throughout the world for peoples to believe in Christ? The Traveler
  11. Traveler

    The timing of truth

    Having been a scout master - the level of being prepared as a scout is very simplistic. For example, if they are going on an overnight camp out then they need to take a sleeping bag. You would be surprised how difficult it is to instill such simple logic. It has been 30+ years but (despite providing an list of essential items) I learned that I must inspect all the personal items scouts were bringing on camp outs - Yes, kids would forget sleeping bags - even on cold weather camp outs. But there is more - parents would think nothing of sending their new scout on his first camp out never even having made a bed in their life. This may draw some ire, especially from younger generations but regardless of what they are thinking - they are not prepared for the day if they remain in the pj's and neglect to make their bed. What kind of preparedness is showing up at an air port for travel in pj's? The whole point is that there are degrees of preparedness. I most certainly agree we must prepare for the Last-days as Saints of G-d. It is just that all the things we talk about - I am not sure that by themselves are as necessary as the mind set to accomplish them is to get us started. If we cannot follow our prophets when their guidance does not fit our paradigm - then we lack the faith to succeed. Sometimes it is not so much about preparation as it is the faith to take the next step not knowing at all or being prepared for what will follow. Because of COVID 19 I am not prepared for loosing our rental income to meet the loans remaining on our rental property - that will not be paid off for another 5 years. We have our food storage - it would not be fun - we just went through it (got rid of stuff that is no longer good - that we canned over 40 years ago😦) - but we could survive for at least 2 years - but I am not prepared for what is going on currently. I am not prepared for not seeing the grand kids except via face time - the wife is less prepared. I could make a grand list of what I am not prepared for but it is also my impression I will get through current conditions better than most - including other Latter-day Saints. If we have a 9.0 or more earth quake (not just 5.7 we just had) - I am not prepared - but we will survive. The Traveler
  12. Traveler

    The timing of truth

    Hmmmmmm - not knowing what comes next or how to behave when something unexpected happens is just about the best definition of being unprepared I can think of. Or as I use to tell my scouts when I was the scout master - there is no such thing as bad weather or bad luck - just bad equipment and bad attitude. The only way I know to prepare for unforeseen things going wrong is to experience it. In essence life is a Kobayashi Maru -- or as stated in the Book of Mormon - everything has its opposite. Without failure there is no success and the only way failure is possible is for something, somewhere and somehow to be possible, probable and finely to be for which we are unprepared. The Traveler
  13. Traveler

    The timing of truth

    Okay - I will be a little more explicit. His reference were to brethren taking additional wives without being specifically commanded to do so. The Traveler
  14. Traveler

    Doctrine and Covenants 10:52

    I believe that there is a concept expressed in several words that by themselves are incomplete. The words are - complete, perfect, whole and holy - and if you like we can add fullness of the gospel. It is my belief that for such things and especially the concept of the "fullness of the gospel" -- that some think this is all about doctrine and that doctrine is, in essence, the literal meaning of scripture. I do not believe doctrine is capable being or bringing the fullness of the gospel. I believe the fullness of the gospel comes through the Law of G-d, the ordinances and the everlasting covenant that are given by and testify of Christ. The Book of Mormon testifies of these things and that Jesus is the Christ and savior of all mankind - this is the beginning of understanding the fullness of the gospel which first step is baptism and given as example by Christ. The Traveler
  15. Traveler

    The timing of truth

    From time to time I have looked back through the rear view mirror of life and pondered how ready I was for important things. I could give several examples but I will use the example of my mission. I had looked forward and prepared for my mission from my youth. I had worked and saved to pay for my mission. When I served there were 6 discussions - I had committed all of them to memory more than a year before my mission call. There were 250 basic scriptures - I memorized all those as well. I came of age for my mission at the height of the Vietnam conflict and spent 2 years in the army to insure I could serve a mission and while serving in the military - I assisted (with the spirit) of bringing over 2 dozen converts. I believed I was ready. I was not ready to be arrested by the FBI as the prime suspect in a murder - in my first area. I was not prepared for poor leadership among the missionaries. I was not prepared for missionaries that would rather be home than on their mission. I was not prepared for a convert that would lie about their belief so they could be baptized for the primary purpose to defraud and rob a wealthy member. I was not prepared to interview converts for baptism - in particular my first such interview with a young teenage girl that thought she was sexually impure and unworthy for baptism because she has kissed a guy. And I was most unprepared for a homosexual struggling to repent and change their heart. I could list many more. But with all this and those I taught on my mission - I was astonished how quickly the spirit could turn a heart to repentance and prepare someone for baptism. I believe every person alive today has all they need to be able to repent and accept the Savior when he returns - even if it is tomorrow. However, it is my prejudice that those that think in their pride that (like me when I received my mission call) that they are prepared - are likely to be surprised and struggle wondering how they could have not prepared - like the 10 virgins without oil. And that those what when Jesus returns fall at his feet and plead for forgiveness of all their failings and beg for mercy - are likely to be the most ready. The Traveler