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Traveler last won the day on August 18 2018

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About Traveler

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    Senior Member
  • Birthday 08/22/1946

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    Sandy Utah
  • Interests
    Science, Cycling, Skiing, (outdoors in general), Liberty and Gospel Doctrine.
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  1. I would preface my remarks about language and repentance by making a vague reference to a recent discussion. The person I was speaking to is bilingual in German and English. He was born here in the US but was called to a mission in Germany and Austria. Since his mission he has fulfilled many callings and worked extensively in Germany and eastern Europe. I will share some of what I learned from him. In the German language there are two words that we translate into English as “Repentance”. I can speak some German but I am not fluent so I do not remember either of the two words – just how I understand them when translated into English. Both words have tradition in Germany. The first comes from the Catholic tradition. In essence it means to suffer or pay a price. This word is much like our English word of “Repentance” that has root in penance or being inflicted with punishment as restitution for evil deeds. This idea of penance or punishment is deeply rooted into our justice and penal system of inflicting punishment. Indeed many see the consequence of sin as a consequence of inflicted punishment – some self-inflicted and some as forced infliction from some superior or universal karma (including G-d). The second word comes from the tradition of Martin Luther in Germany. This word means to “Turn Around”. This is indeed a different way to look at repentance and as I think about it there are elements of this concept in our Latter-day revelations and doctrines. It is the idea of a change of heart and mind. What is interesting, according to my friend and expert in German and English, that within the society of Latter-day Saints in Germany there seem to be division based mainly in the previous religious traditions someone came from to become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Both words are used in the Book of Mormon but it seem the word used has more to do with the tradition of the person influencing the German translation than any other factor. And so my friend tells me that the tradition or background (Catholic or Lutheran) heavily influences how German Saints interpret the doctrine of repentance. As I discussed this I can see the benefits and limitations of both concepts. I have thought this and have concluded that there is still something missing in these two concepts of repentance. The third concept is the idea of becoming better. In the idea of repentance – I believe we must turn away from our sins – and in many cases suffer and make effort at restitution for the damage or loss we have caused ourselves and others. But I am of the mind that we have not repented and made covenant for remission, payment or whatever to overcome sin – until be become (by covenant) a better, committed and disciplined person. The Traveler
  2. Traveler

    The Contested Color of Christ

    It is my personal opinion that man has fallen and that one effect of the fall is genetic diversity. Among mortals there is no superior or inferior genetic identity - not white, not black and not anything in between. We may call some genetic diversity a inferior or corrupted genetic condition - but mortality in my mind is corrupted genetics. It is my opinion that there is no corresponding kind of genetic diversity in the resurrection. It may be possible (perhaps even likely) that there is genetic diversity between Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial resurrected beings. I believe that if we were to see Jesus Christ today - we would not see him as he is if we were to see him as he appeared in mortality. Likely, if we were to look directly at Christ it would burn holes in our retina quicker than looking directly at the sun. That Jesus came to earth and was born of a mortal mother - in mortality we tend to see and think of him as we see and think of ourselves. I am of the mind that if we could see anyone in their glory (before or after our mortal condition) we would fall down and worship them - also we would be amazed, astonished and completely captivated at their sheer beauty. The Traveler
  3. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    I am not sure we are reading Mosiah correctly - everyone that is not baptized after talking to the missionaries - that prays in the name of G-d while attending their church is cast into outer darkness??? The Traveler
  4. Traveler

    Dating Services

    I thank you for your honest responses. Perhaps someday we can explore such things in greater detail when tender feelings to not seem to be at risk. You are a lady that I respect and feel I can be open. Though our cultures are greatly different I am not offended (though confused sometimes). I am also a very typical engineer that have a most difficult time with how emotions play with logic. I mean you no offense. The Traveler
  5. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    We know that Adam, prior to Eden, was Michael that helped form the earth and put into place the first critical element of the Plan of Salvation. I can understand why we would be ignorant during a mortal fallen probation (in essence the very term “fallen” indicates a great loss) but I cannot rationalize why there would be need for ignorance in the pre-existence when the plan of salvation was presented to us it is entirety and we were also given opportunity to ask questions, discuss openly all aspects, and make an “informed decision if we would participate. At such a juncture – I cannot appreciate or logically discern any reason for a G-d of truth and light to withhold or hide any perinate information to which he had access himself. If information was withheld – I see such as driven by a spirit of manipulation. Which I see to be more in line with evil Satanic designs than with that of a G-d of truth and light. The Traveler
  6. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    This is a valid argument and I am not trying to dismiss it. There is a variant reading of this scripture that reads "I never authorized you" rather than, "I never knew you." Clearly G-d knows all things and all people so I do not think this is about what the L-rd knows or does not know. I believe the scripture is testifying to the importance of the priesthood and priesthood keys. With the ancient understanding of kingdoms and those "chosen" to rule with the supreme Suzerain this follows exactly what one would expect concerning law and those authorized to act as proxy for the Suzerain. I believe it is a lawful rebuke of those that attempt to take authority unto themselves rather than through proper channels. I rationalize that Jesus is not speaking of the final judgement but rather more concerning the process of understanding and preparing for such. The Traveler
  7. Traveler

    Dating Services

    What is your definition of filthy lucre? or ill gotten gains? If you found money on a busy street corner do you keep it? Does it matter if it is 5 cents or $5,000? The Traveler
  8. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    I have a problem with the idea of what I call game show choices. Say we are given three doors hidding what is behind them. How can we say we made a choice of agency when we do not know what we are getting out of our choice. I just cannot understand not knowing what we are doing as a choice. The next problem is that I cannot reconcile why the circumstances of life can be so different and still just and not a matter of agency and choice. I just do not believe G-d forces anyone into any circumstance and yet agency is still preserved? If we did not plan our life - I do not see why G-d would keep secret to himself what our choices would cause. I believe we knew and that is why we come into this life with our past forgotten. Another problem happened when my first child was born. I was flooded with the notion that he was meant to have my wife and I as his parents. I cannot reconcile his agency unless I was involved with him and my now wife in the pre-existence. In addition - I feel that part of G-d plan has to do with my ancestors as well as promised blessing concerning my seed (and others in scripture). I just do not understand how all this can be promised by G-d to so many others. Finely - It seems that so many things I did not understand earlier in my life have become so important later on - much more than what I thought I was choosing at the time I thought I was choosing them. It seems to me that I do not have much at all beyond a fantasy and illusion that I have much control of anything - especially my own life during my mortal probation. Even when I have sinned and gotten off course - it seems that there has been so much pushing me back into the right place for me to be. I am working hard but I cannot brag about my accomplishments - it is like the path was set before me. But I cannot speak for anyone else - only my own experience. The Traveler
  9. Traveler

    Dating Services

    I would not go so far to say misusing. For sure we have an obligation to be charitable. I emphasized this notion to make what I believe to be an important point. We are also told in scripture that to care for those in need (widows and orphans) is true religion and an act of charity. But it is more important to meet our debts before we try to fulfill what we may think as our charitable obligations. This is why I suggested that charity is a debt. Jesus said that before we pay our alms (be charitable) that if we have ought with our brother that we reconcile with them FIRST and then bring our offerings (of charity) to G-d. I believe as important as Charity is that it cannot replace our debts and obligations. That meeting debts and obligations is a step towards being charitable. The Traveler
  10. Traveler

    Dating Services

    I must see things very differently than you - to me obligations and debts are 100% interchangeable. I believe my upbringing was much like the prophet Joseph Smith. If I promised to stay inside a chalk line I am more obligated and have a debt to stay much more than if I am place there by someone else behind iron bars and armed guards. What I promise is much more of a debt than any outside attempt for me to believe or think otherwise. As a parent in Zion I have an obligation and debt to G-d to raise his precious children to whom I have been entrusted and obligated to serve - because of covenants and promises made previously. But I also must admit to playing with your mind a little - I agree with a lot you have said. But I believe we act as obligation and debt - either to the world or to G-d - likewise with promise. Then as we agreed to debt and obligation we come into this life and struggle to complete be worthy to those we owe so much and so greatly. The Traveler
  11. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    I believe we knew a lot more than we may think - and so this is the reason for the veil of forgetfulness. I am of the mind that if we knew how things would turn out - that the trial would not be enough to ensure the necessary depth of experience to produce the desired results but would only be superficial. I experienced in college that when I knew the subject enough for the "A" grade - that I would not make any effort to learn according to my ability but rather to rely on what I already knew - skip class and go skiing. The Traveler
  12. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    One of my "jobs" as an engineer is to test my designs to make sure the products are ready for customer use. I set up trials and test to be as difficult and impossible to succeed as possible within the design parameters - not to grade but to determine what adjustments still need to take place before my designs are complete and ready. I am of the mind that through trials our weaknesses can be made strengths - not instruments or excuses for our damnation. Failure is not succumbing to temptations but rather not learning, repenting and moving on to completing our intended conclusion. So I am of the mind that many very smart spirits of our Father in heaven planned to push the envelope in mortality to insure their weaknesses are overcome and made strengths at the final judgment. The Traveler
  13. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    I believe it to be symbolic of the bitter hatred that some will have for the righteous saints - not so much of anything to do with personal inward introspection. The Traveler
  14. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    Interesting - I am of the notion that not only did we know - we planned it. It is the only way I can justify and understand agency. It would also explain some things about Satan that when he realized how bad some plans were - he argued that we cannot allow such to happen. But I am open to ideas. Just that it is hard for me and what I understand of G-d and Christ that we would be sent into this mortal life ignorantly. Some would say - why would I make such a plan for myself - or why would anyone make a bad plan for themself. But I would ask - if someone's life plan is so far from what they would choose - why do you believe G-d (what about G-d do you believe that) would force them onto it without them having any say? The Traveler
  15. Traveler

    Need help re. Plan of salvation

    I just have a hard time with the notion that we must "prove" anything to someone as smart as G-d. The Traveler