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The Plan of Salvation (or progression from pre-existence to eternity)
Vort replied to JohnsonJones's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
I do not know what you were taught, and I cannot say what others may have taught through the decades. I was taught something similar growing up. But the above is not according to scripture, as I learned when I began seriously reading and studying scripture at about the age of 19. There was only ever one plan, not two. That single plan was the Father's plan, originating with him. According to the Father, this plan would save all who would receive it and exalt all who would abide the law. The plan required a Redeemer, for which Jesus volunteered himself (doubtless was called of the Father to do so). In speaking up, Jesus made it clear that it was the Father's plan, done by the power of the Father, and that the glory was to the Father whose plan it was. At least one other also volunteered himself for being the Redeemer. This prideful volunteer, a liar from the beginning, amended the Father's plan by making a spurious claim: He would redeem not just some, but all, and therefore the glory and honor would accrue to him, and not to the Father. The Father rejected the impudent offer of the so-called son of the morning and confirmed Jehovah as our Redeemer. The liar whose offer was rejected rebelled against God, along with "the third part" of the Father's children who hearkened to his lies. This is the genesis of the war in heaven, the premortal result of which was that the third part was cast out. -
I'm going to offer my own theory, but it is only a theory and my own. I haven't seen it anywhere else. This is just a theory and I'm not saying that I am correct since this is only my best guess. The Amalekites are also in the Bible and Torah. They were an enemy to Israel and the Jews. Although in the Bible some verses indicate that the Amalekites were at one time a specific group of people or nation, in Jewish tradition the words Amalakites came to symbolize any group or people that fought against the Jews. Thus, over time, in Jewish tradition, the word Amalakites transitioned to be a synonym for "enemy" and the word was applied to any group fighting against Israel and the Jews. This may indeed be the case in the Book of Mormon as well. Although it is possible that they were a group of people following someone named Amalek, the word Amalekites could just be another word for enemy, just as it is used as such in Jewish traditions. If that is indeed the case, the word could be applied to a group of people who were fighting against the Nephites at that time and/or maybe the word was chosen by Mormon for that particular group and they may or may not have called themselves that. If that was the case, he is only using a word in place of "enemy". It could have been the Amlicites or maybe a different enemy. Amalekites could have been a more generic term for enemy, the same as it became so used in Jewish tradition.
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It wouldn't pollute the water. Sidon was a sizeable river, and the bodies were washed downstream and eventually into the ocean. Alma 44:22 tells us: And it came to pass that they did cast their dead into the waters of Sidon, and they have gone forth and are buried in the depths of the sea. The vast majority of life, both animal and plant, dies in the oceans, so a few (or a few thousand) more human bodies decaying in the ocean won't really make a noticeable difference, even locally. Within a day or so, it will be like it never happened.
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Yes, that is correct. As long as they do not fast, they do not receive the blessings of the fast. That's the irrevocable law of heaven as explained in Section 130. Absolutely not, though I understand why you would feel this way. This is not a matter of not being a "complete" Saint or of lacking worthiness before God. This is a matter of physically not being able to do something. Please read and consider my entire answer below. I'll try not to be too long-winded. If you climb Mount Timpanogos in Utah County, you get to see a magnificent view of Provo and Orem. If you can't climb Mount Timpanogos, you don't get to see the view. The fact that you can't climb Timp doesn't mean God hates you. It doesn't mean your life has no meaning. It doesn't mean you're not a real person (or BYU student, or Latter-day Saint, or whatever). It doesn't mean you're unworthy of love or friendship or compassion. It simply means that, for whatever reason, you can't climb Timp. So that particular blessing—being able to have that view of Provo and Orem—is denied you. Now, if you can climb Timp, but just choose not to, then the reason you don't enjoy the blessing of climbing Timp is because you made a choice. Obviously, there is no spiritual imperative to climb Mount Timpanogos, so it matters only if you really want to see the view. We do have a spiritual imperative to gain the blessings of the fast, though—that is, those of us who can fast. When we make excuses not to fast, complain that we get a headache or it's uncomfortable or that we get crabby or constipated or light-headed or whatever other excuses we make, then we have no one to blame but ourselves when we do not receive the blessings of the fast. We can pretend that doing some sort of "substitute fast" gives us all those same blessings, but we deceive ourselves. The blessings of the fast come to those who fulfill the law of the fast, and in no other way. To repeat: Those who can fast but choose not to because it's too uncomfortable have no one but themselves to blame for missing the blessings of the fast. Perhaps we who fall into that camp are even condemned by God to some degree because we refuse to acquire the blessings he freely offers us. In contrast, those who cannot fast are under no divine condemnation—but they still don't receive the blessings of the fast, just like the person who can't climb Timp doesn't get the view. So you see, Dahlia, this is not a matter of condemnation or blame. If you can't fast, then you can't fast. No one condemns you for it—not God, not your fellow Saints, and hopefully not yourself. But the law stands, and the blessings that appertain to that law can be gained only by fulfilling the law. No breathing, no living. No sex, no children. No exercise, no strength. No fasting, no blessings of fasting. That said, who's to say that fasting for, say, 12 hours (perhaps by skipping breakfast) won't result in some of the blessings of the fast? I know of no time limit required for such blessings to begin coming. Our leaders have instructed us (those who are able) to fast by abstaining from both food and drink for 24 consecutive hours, so I suppose that's sort of the "standard fast" or "full fast". But again, if you can't do it, you can't. It does not therefore logically follow that all blessings of the fast are closed to anyone who can't fast for 24 consecutive hours. My suggestion to you, sister, is to make this a matter of prayer. Some sort of partial fast might be just the thing. Maybe it's worth talking with your Relief Society president and/or bishop to get their insights. It may be the case that some of the blessings of the fast are not available to you at this time, but it's likely that some or even many of those blessings are available. Talk it over with your Father and with those who minister to you. God bless you in your efforts.
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It was a mini-series, if that counts, 'The Great Train Robbery' (2013). It's in 2 parts, one being the robbery from the robbers' POV and one from the police's. I guess the last movie movie was 'Legend' with Tom Hardy where he plays the Kray twins, kingpins of the London underground in the 60's. I learned about the Krays when I went to London in 1990 and a movie about them had just been released. I found it fascinating that while I was all into the Beatles, etc., these guys were ruling their world.
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How is this news to you? 😄
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Well, this discussion went in unexpected directions. 😄 I leave you guys alone for a couple of days and you don't know what to do with yourselves. So, what's happened with me so far: I was able to fast 30 minutes longer than I originally scheduled. I thought I'd need to have almond milk all day, but only needed 2 cups of bouillon. When I finally ate, I wasn't ravenous, I just had my usual meal. I got as far as Helaman in the BOM. I'm sorry I didn't finish before the surgery, but I'm not gonna let that stop me and plan to finish it tomorrow. I guess I could have plowed through it, but that would have defeated my purpose of really getting into it this time. My friend had his surgery and it went well. I'm so happy, for him and for me, that I could do this for him. I do have a question for the science people here. There are several incidences in the BOM where bodies were thrown in the Sidon river. Why would you do that? 😨 Why not burn or bury the bodies? Why would you pollute the water? Inquiring minds...
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I'm of two minds with this: 1) How do you reconcile this with pregnant women or the sick not having to fast? So they never have these blessings? and 2) this is why I didn't feel 'complete' as a Mormon. I knew I couldn't fast for medical reasons and for all these years, felt like I was missing out on this aspect of the religious practice.
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The Plan of Salvation (or progression from pre-existence to eternity)
JohnsonJones posted a topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
I've seen a few discussions in various locations regarding the Plan of Salvation. One of the more recent ideas someone floated to me was that there were multiple ideas of the Plan of Salvation given through the years and it's constantly changed. I did not agree with many of these and frustratingly enough when I was about done with them I was directed to a website that posted that Prophets and apostles all disagreed with the Plan of Salvation and even posited that Bruce R. McKonkie and his son Joseph disagreed upon how the Plan of Salvation worked. It listed half a dozen different (and what I see as bogus ideas in my research as an amateur Church Historian) 'plans of salvation' that were given through the years. This comes from people younger than I who are pointing me to this idea (though not all of them, one was on this site a while ago I believe), and apparently it's changed since I've been a member of the Church (I've been a member for a little over 50 years now). I was polite, but what I wanted to say was...Not to my recollection it hasn't. One of the main themes revolved around Reincarnation. The church has never officially taught that reincarnation occurs as far as I've seen (and the closest was the idea that Celestial Beings have children in a mortal like state, but than after that they return to where they came from after several centuries...but that was a brief moment in time that was even discussed, much less taught). It was included in a majority of their presentations of the "Plan of Salvation." My thought on this stuff was...that's a bunch of rot. So, this is partly a vent and partly just to lay out clearly what the Church taught about the Plan of Salvation. The first post is basically what the Church taught from the time when I investigated, to what I believe it still teaches now. I will probably at a later date post this in my personal thread on my thoughts on the Church's Culture and such but with added stuff included of my own opinions and such. However, this thread is to reiterate the basic Plan of Salvation. So, onto the basics of the Plan of Salvation as was taught to me. As far as I know, the basics have stayed the same since at least the late 19th century. The doctrine of the various Kingdoms of afterlife have been around since the time of the Prophet Joseph. I will use his words on them for a basis in D&C section 76, some that were added as Canon later with Abraham Chapter 3 and D&C section 138. I will also use Section 131. There are a few other things that will be included that were taught over the years to me, but are for the most part understood (such as the veil of forgetfulness). Beginning at the start, as per section 76:24, the worlds were and are created by the Father of us. Utilizing Abraham as well, we are his begotten sons and daughters and we were with him before this worlds creation. This is what we call the Pre-existence. In the Pre-existence a war started. There, two individual Sons of our Father had two different plans. One was in accordance with the Father and had the decision to give us Free Agency to Choose good and evil. If we chose to do evil this son would come down. Through him we would have the atonement in which we could repent of our sins and return to our Father. The other plan was in rebellion and it was that instead of choice, we would be forced to choose good. This was also an idea of to supplant the Father and sit in his place, to steal his glory, and give all the glory to the leader of this plan. This plan of rebellion was led by Satan. A third of the hosts of heaven followed him. Those of us who are on this Earth chose the former plan and followed Jesus and our Father. In selecting to follow them we kept our First Estate. Those who followed Satan will not have glory in the same Kingdom as those of us who did. This plan was to prove if we will do all the things whatsoever the Lord our God will command us (Abr 3:25). Those of us who keep our second estate will have glory added upon us. After this premortal life we are sent to Earth to live in mortality. When we come here we pass through the veil of forgetfulness. We forget our pre-existence in mortality. Here we are given choices. We are here to see if we will follow the Lord. After we die we go to the Spirit World In the Spirit world we will go to either Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison. Those of use who are of the just, who have been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality and thosewho have offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God and have suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.departed this life firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ will be filled with joy and gladness. (D&C 138 12-15) Those who are such will go to what we call Spirit Paradise. There is another place also that the wicked go called Spirit Prison. There are others that may be in the waiting for the gospel and we will be organized and sent to preach the gospel to them, teaching them the principles and ordinances (ordinances for the dead) where we who are among the living can act as proxy so that those who are dead but did not get their living ordinances, can receive them as if they were alive. After this we go to a judgment where our final destinations after this life is determined. The following is almost straight from D&C 76. The Lowest are the Sons of Perdition. They denied the Holy Spirit after having received it and denied the only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame (76:35). The go to outer darkness and are the only ones the second death has any power over. The rest are brought forth by the resurrection of the dead through the triumph and the glory of the Lam (76:39). These are divided into 3 Kingdoms of Heaven, that of the Celestial Kingdom, that of the Terrestrial Kingdom and that of the Telestial Kingdom. Into the First are those who received the testimony of Jesus and were baptized, that kept the commandments and cleansed from all their sins and received the Holy spirit of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power, overcome by faith, sealed by the Holy spirit of Promise, are of the Church of the Firstborn, who are Priest and Kings and received of his fullness and glory, are priests of the Most High after the Order of Melchizedek. Therefore they are gods, even the sons of God. (76: 51-58). These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever (76:62). This is the Celestial glory and the Highest degree of glory. This glory is that of the Sun. We also know that those who did not receive the law in this life but who would have accepted the gospel if they had the opportunity will also be able to receive this Glory. (D&C 137:7) This glory is unending. Those shall dwell there in the presences of God and his Christ forever and ever (D&C 76:62). There is no end of this if we believe in it being forever and ever. This Glory is also divided into 3 Kingdoms, into which to enter the highest a man must enter into the order of the Priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage] (D&C 131: 1-2) The next degree of Glory is that of the Terrestrial world. This glory is that of the moon differs from the sun. These are they who died without law. They are who the spirits of men kept in prison who the son visited and preached the gospel to that they might be judged according to men in the flesh. These are they who received not the testimony of Jesus in the Flesh but afterwards received it. These are honorable people of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men. They are those who receive of his glory but not of his fullness. These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus. They shall be visited by the Son, but not of the fullness of the Father. (D&C 76:72-79) The third degree of Glory is that of the Telestial. These are they who did not receive the gospel of Christ , neither the testimony of Jesus. These are they who deny not the Holy Ghost. These are they who initially are thrust down to hell and are not redeemed until the Lord finishes his work. They do not receive the Son nor the Father in their Kingdom of Glory but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the Terrestrial. They shall have administering angels who are appointed to minister for them. (76: 82-88) There are as many different glories in the Telestial Kingdom, or divisions in the Telestial Kingdoms as stars, for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world (76:98). Those in the telestial will be as innumerable as the stars or the sand upon the seashore. They will be servants of the Most High: but where God and Christ dwell they cannot enter, worlds without end. (D&C 76:109, 112) This then is the general idea of the Plan of Salvation that I learned and has been the same since I've been a member...at least from what I've been taught (unless it's changed without me knowing it). Much of this (Especially that about the three Kingdoms) was taught in the Doctrine and Covenants and has stayed the same in writing since it was written down (as far as I know). Saying that this has changed... I don't think so. Anyways, that's the Plan of Salvation in it's basic idea with Scriptures as the background for reference. -
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Kind of like blaming a rape victim... "oh if you hadn't acted that way it wouldn't have happened"
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- Yesterday
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But it is on the web, it has to be true.
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If you actually loathed bipartisanship as you claim, I would think you'd be the first in line to condemn CNN's unabashed Democrat Party drum-beating. Instead, you claim that CNN's actions are...the Republicans' fault! That doesn't sound even a little bit like someone who honestly hates "the trap of bipartisanship". It sounds much more like someone who hates Republicans and willingly blames them as the foundational cause of the evil actions of others.
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Then you have fallen into the trap of bipartisanship, and are case in point of what I'm trying to say; the very reason I loathe it. I'm guessing you think I'm a Democrat now because I was somewhat critical of Republicans. After all, if you're not with us, you're against us, right? I assure you, I've got my criticisms of both the left and the right, but never at any time have I voted for either save at the local level. I have never endorsed a presidential, congressional, or house candidate belonging to either party. This is because in my entire adult lifetime, both parties have failed to produce a candidate that meets the standards I'm looking for. You've been deceived into thinking it's one or the other. They've conditioned you to jump to conclusions like you did here. Partisans benefit from people who think like that. I beg of you to withdraw from the false narrative. It's so much more damaging than you realize, particularly to the rising generation.
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The Book of Mormon's mysterious Amalekites
mordorbund replied to Vort's topic in LDS Gospel Discussion
The article in the second link can be found here. -
I tripped over this old thread a few days ago and looked up mord's links again. Of the three above, only the first and third are still active, and both are worthwhile. The last link is analytical in nature, and I find it provocative and informative. I'll cast my vote with it.
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The best Book of Mormon study guide is the Book of Mormon. Nothing else can replace it, and with it, you don't really need anything else. Just read the Book of Mormon. Start at page 1 and read sequentially through to the end. It's really that simple, and there really is no other way to gain that knowledge.
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A professor at BYU has a great Book of Mormon Study Guide -- Largey is the author: https://deseretbook.com/p/book-mormon-reference-companion-dennis-largey-41986?variant_id=61360-hardcover @Just_A_Guy seems to have provided the same link.
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Might be useful-- the Institute study guide: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32506_eng.pdf?lang=eng
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A secular study guide of scripture? Would you like some dry water to go with that? My suggestion is just read The Book of Mormon...go directly to the source. The message is spiritual, not secular, and your best teacher is the Holy Ghost.
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This is my go-to reference. It’s not a “study guide” per se, as it contains alphabetized entries on a number of Book of Mormon people, places, books, and concepts. But I’ve found it to be very useful. (Apparently it just barely came out in paperback; the hard cover edition has been out for a few years now.)
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I think you meant "Interesting. I've just never seen a Catholic say Mass was less than anything-- including in my intensive study of those beliefs" Not sure how to address that except to say that there are various degrees of beliefs in the church in my opinion; but I never really committed a poll; just based on some personal discussion with my Catholic parishioners.
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That doesn't really address my comment.
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My dad is a Catholic from birth. Unfortunately he doesn't really believe in Christ's resurrection 😞 I keep telling him that there would be no church without His resurrection. Only the Holy Spirit can convert him.
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Interesting. I've just never seen a Catholic say Mass was less than anything-- including in my intensive study of those beliefs. LDS Christians don't find communal or private worship to be intrinsically more valuable than the other. Rather you need both.
