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Everything posted by laronius

  1. Teaching that class was the best calling I've ever had and when I wasn't teaching I still enjoyed attending it more than any of the others classes. Just focusing on the doctrine is how all classes should be but unfortunately is often not the case.
  2. I really do like that imagery of climbing/ascending up to be with the Lord, whether climbing a mountain or ladder. Perhaps it's because of my enjoyment of hiking but the mental image of leaving the world and all of it's sordidness behind and rising above it all really brings into focus what our goal in the gospel should be, a spiritual destination that we should be looking to. Perhaps this is the earthly version of entering into the rest of the Lord we are commanded to seek.
  3. I think you are right. Those verses would actually be a good footnote reference in the scriptures. If this is the case then Moses 7:53 is clearly tying together the covenants of salvation and exaltation.
  4. Jacob's ladder did come to mind but this quote from Joseph Smith definitely does explain the purpose of climbing in a gospel perspective.
  5. I guess this would be similar to some of our temples where you actually progress upward as you go through with the end indeed being "up by" Him.
  6. Moses 7:53 And the Lord said: Blessed is he through whose seed Messiah shall come; for he saith—I am Messiah, the King of Zion, the Rock of Heaven, which is broad as eternity; whoso cometh in at the gate and climbeth up by me shall never fall; wherefore, blessed are they of whom I have spoken, for they shall come forth with songs of everlasting joy. Does anyone know what the climbing refers to in this scripture? I don't mean the interpretation but the symbol. I get the gate as being the entrance but what exactly is being climbed and why?
  7. So are you saying the outcome might have been different had they partaken of the fruit prior to Satan's involvement? If the temple analogy the article deals with is correct then prior to accessing the tree of life by entering into the inner part of the garden, which I guess would be our modern day Celestial room, certain instruction and preparation would have had to take place, specially considering the ignorant state they were in. So I guess partaking of that fruit of knowledge could have been tempting but I guess we don't know how much they understood at that time or specifically what Satan told them when he showed up.
  8. That's a bummer. I'm amazed at how far those dust particles travel.
  9. One of the views expressed in this article ( that was apparently held by at least some early Christians was that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was actually more of a hedge that encircled the tree of life and one must pass through this hedge or "veil" before you could access the tree of life. Or in other words, as I read it, one could not partake of the fruit of the tree of life without first acquiring the knowledge of good and evil first. Now whether that is how the garden was set up I don't know but I think that principle is still true and worth keeping in mind when studying this topic.
  10. As far as I'm concerned your post is very relevant to this thread as I intended to broaden it's scope anyway but got distracted. As we consider what the main purposes of the Millennium are, temple and missionary work, I imagine many of the distractions and impediments that exist now will be removed to allow us to concentrate more fully on those purposes. But in many ways life still goes on including raising families and all of the many activities that entails. This surely includes recreation and other wholesome pastimes and activities. I personally would find it very interesting to teach the gospel under those circumstances, especially at the beginning when the world is still dealing with having to explain exactly what has just happened. How does a Hindu explain it or what might a fervent but non-LDS Christian feel about the Savior's coming that doesn't happen exactly as they thought it would. It would certainly be a topic many would want to talk about and the need for missionaries, full-time and member, will be great!
  11. I guess what I was thinking about is that if the natural man did not come into being until the fall and with the Millennium being a somewhat pre-fall status I was wondering what do we carry over with us. Of course it's not entirely like the Garden of Eden.
  12. #1 Adam and Eve did not come into being when they were placed in the Garden of Eden. They lived, along with all of us, with God in the spirit world where opposition did exist. When they were placed in the Garden their environment, for a time, was pretty sterile. So I guess we could say that the environment was potentially "as dead" in that initially progress was restricted. Whether it was completely dead or just mostly dead (shoutout to Princess Bride fans) we may not know as I will talk about in my answer to question 2. #2 While Satan was definitely a catalyst to make things happen in the Garden that doesn't necessarily mean there was no temptation before his involvement. Moses 4:12 tells us "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof..." While Satan definitely enticed Eve to partake of the fruit it is still possible that there was some enticement taking place before that, just apparently not enough to get Eve to partake of the fruit. Perhaps though Adam and Eve were sufficiently ignorant as to not find the fruit appealing at all prior to Satan. But it's very presence in the Garden makes me think that out of curiosity if nothing else Adam and Eve had to have experienced some enticement to partake of it. But that's just a guess. #3 Adam and Eve's act is labeled a transgression and not a sin. A law was broken but in ignorance, meaning their childlike state did not allow them to fully understand the consequences of their choice. Once they experienced the consequences they started to gain the knowledge that would allow them to make informed decisions. Man cannot be condemned or saved in ignorance. They must know what they are choosing between and the breaking of any law further drives home that point. #4 I think it's a true statement either way. I'm guessing they were only trying to get back to the original with that change but that's only a guess. Generally the capital G version refers to the Godhead whereas the lower case version refers to man's potential to become like them.
  13. In reading in the Gospel Doctrine Student Manual I read some quotes of modern prophets that got me thinking about what the Millennium will be like. I thought I'd quote a few of them here with the question they evoked. I recognize that these quotes may not represent official doctrine of the Church. “The time for the Second Coming of Christ is as fixed and certain as was the hour of his birth. It will not vary as much as a single second from the divine decree. He will come at the appointed time. The Millennium will not be ushered in prematurely because men turn to righteousness, nor will it be delayed because iniquity abounds. Nephi was able to state with absolute certainty that the God of Israel would come ‘in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.’ (1 Ne. 19:8.) To a later Nephi the Divine Voice acclaimed: ‘The time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world.’ (3 Ne. 1:13.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, 26–27). Obviously God’s omniscience allows Him to know in advance exactly when the Second Coming will take place. But McConkie seems to be teaching that that time is in no way impacted by the conditions of the world. And while I don’t have any specific quotes, it seems like it has been at least implied in the past that the Savior will come once we are ready and prepared for him, generally speaking and not individually. Is that not the impression other’s have had or am I just in left field on this? “When the reign of Jesus Christ comes during the millennium, only those who have lived the telestial law will be removed. The earth will be cleansed of all its corruption and wickedness. Those who have lived virtuous lives, who have been honest in their dealings with their fellow man and have endeavored to do good to the best of their understanding, shall remain” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:62). Does this imply that some of those who live during the millennium may only inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom because only Telestial law abiders are removed? “It shall be in that day that the lion shall lie down with the lamb and eat straw as the ox, and all fear, hatred, and enmity shall depart from the earth because all things having hate in their hearts shall pass away; and there shall come a change, a change over men, a change over the beasts of the field, and upon all things living upon the face of the earth. “According to this word I have read there shall be harmony, and love, and peace, and righteousness because Satan is bound that he cannot tempt any man, and that will be the condition that shall be upon the earth for 1,000 years” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:58). Is this implying that the natural man will not exist within us during the Millennium? And will, for example, those who currently experience same sex attraction have their natural feelings restored to their correct order?
  14. Well @Carborendum you caught me. The two witnesses prophecy has proven to be my spiritual Achilles heel. Who would've thunk it. 😂 Seriously???? Okay, let me set your mind at ease that I am not quickly (or even slowly) sliding into the realm of apostasy. Apparently it has been a while since I've read section 133 of the D&C which as you point out clearly teaches us that these individuals have in fact been resurrected and that is why I thanked you for your contribution. You previously had referenced something a previous prophet had mentioned and while I always give merit to such things I also recognize the possibility of expressed opinion in such things so I don't automatically take it as absolute, so if you would have lead with scripture I imagine this thread would have been a bit shorter. But I thank you for your concern.
  15. Yes, the "raised up to the Jewish nation" part is one of the few bits of information on their identity. It does make one wonder on what exactly it means.
  16. I think you have been reading far too much in between the lines. Simply exploring an interesting belief of the Jewish people. But I do appreciate your contributions to the discussion.
  17. I agree but it makes me wonder what if any difference there is between the physical change that must come upon a mortal being to temporarily enter God's presence and one who is essentially taken up into heaven as a translated being. Is there a difference in what actually takes place or is it simply a difference in duration? But yes, resurrection is altogether different so if they have been resurrected then I don't see them returning to mortality as an option. Again, we do have the three Nephites wandering around. Maybe two of them will get a wild hair and decide to go check out Jerusalem. 🤔😁
  18. I know it is assumed that they have been resurrected but I didn't know if it was official doctrine. Maybe Enoch is just going to have to find him a sidekick to pull it off. 😄
  19. This is what I was thinking. These are individuals who are uniquely qualified to reach the Jewish people. Elijah is one individual they are in fact expecting to return whereas Moses and Enoch have delivered the House of Israel from their enemies before. Does present an interesting scenario.
  20. There's some things we definitely don't know about translated beings but if it's anything like those who experience a bodily change when they temporarily enter God's presence then leaving His presence, i.e. come back to earth, may possibly result in becoming mortal again.
  21. Concerning the two witnesses that will preach in Jerusalem, hold back the enemies of the nation of Israel, be killed and then raised after three days, I just read of a Jewish tradition that these two witnesses would be either Moses and Elijah or Enoch and Elijah. I found this pretty interesting because from an LDS perspective it is just assumed they would be members of the then current quorum of 12 apostles. But having that role filled by ancient prophets of the house of Israel who have not yet died has a certain logic to it that kind of makes sense. Any thoughts of why this could or couldn't be a credible fulfillment of this prophecy?
  22. Well the weather prophets appear to have gotten the trajectory of the storm correct this time as southern Florida is getting a bunch of rain. But fortunately it never formed into a hurricane. I have to say that I'm surprised that with all the technology that allows us to measure and observe what happens in our atmosphere, there is still so much unknown about what will actually happen, especially in cases such as this. I don't know about other parts of the country but here in Arizona weather men/women are known as being predictably wrong. They get the sunny and hot part right most of the time but any departure from that is a great mystery.
  23. I guess I don't know which other trees you are referring to. Of course there would have been other trees in the garden just like the ones we have now.
  24. I'm in our Sunday School presidency and we specifically tell the teachers don't even try to cover everything. Familiarize yourselves with the material and see where the Spirit takes you both in preparation and in teaching. If they don't feel particularly impressed to cover anything it is my preference that they cover the material that is freshest in the member's minds to help spark discussion.
  25. There's a fine line the Church has to walk in these matters. While they may be very direct in saying we love everyone regardless of their sexual orientation and support them in ways that don't promote sin, perception is still an issue. For many members that line between accepting the sinner but not the sin is not very definite and therefore promoting something that is not distinctly tied to a specific cause, such as equal housing/employment rights and mental health, it can get tricky real fast. Clearly pride month includes accepting gay sexual activity which is something the Church can't do. So unless the Church can make a very clear distinction between what it does and does not support I wouldn't expect it to get involved.