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  1. 7 points
    Just_A_Guy

    Views on Stimulus

    Issue 4: the federal government didn’t order the economy to shut down; (some of) the state governments did. Why should Utah, which has basically been open for business for the last year and whose economy is humming along, be subsidizing the coastal states’ draconian measures? If California or New Jersey feel their citizens deserve restitution, they are free to pass their own relief packages for their own residents.
  2. 7 points
    mordorbund

    Views on Stimulus

    The moral argument against federal stimulus is grounded in the realization of where stimulus money comes from: taxes. If only people who paid taxes were getting the stimulus then it would just be a tax break. Instead we have the federal government taking money from one group and giving to another. The analogy often used is imagine I found out that you're struggling financially so I reach in my pocket and give you $600. I tell Carb what's going on and he hands over $600 also. No one is objecting to this (until we find out you're the subject of the charity thread - but we can forego that discussion for now). Where it becomes morally wrong is when I go to Carb and tell him you're struggling financially, and he WILL give you $600 or I will forcibly take $600 from him to give you. The fact that it benefits you does not make it any less of a robbery. What suddenly makes it okay when I don't do it myself but instead vote for some faceless government to bully on my behalf? The logistical argument against federal stimulus is the variance in cost-of-living across the nation. $600 will go a lot farther in Provo, UT than it will in New York City. Rapid inflation (also known as a "soft default" for government loans) penalizes saving. Similarly, income tax penalizes high wages, sales tax penalizes high spending, and property taxes penalizes ownership. Yet despite these penalties we still see wages, spending, and ownership. So there's a tradeoff. In the case of inflation, the economy can handle some, but you don't want so much that it stifles lending (if I loan you $100K today, I want to know that the 200K I get back in 30 years is worth more than the $100K I'm giving you now). You've grouped UBI and stimulus together, but note that these are 2 different things. We used to have a few posters promoting universal basic income, but I haven't seen them for a while. Is UBI something you'd also like to discuss or do you want to keep this focused on stimulus?
  3. 5 points
    I'm in the same boat. My only issue is I won't continue to do service if they have already 'burned' that service bridge. I find myself willing to help those who need service or help in an unusual situation/circumstance: death in the family, recently laid off, surgery, covid dinners, elderly, disabled. I find myself unwilling to help those who continually need service or help but are simply too lazy or cheap to help themselves. <---- these make me sour inside as well. So in an effort to not sour all service, I avoid the latter.
  4. 4 points
    mordorbund

    Views on Stimulus

    The strongest argument in favor of stimulus is that the government is morally obligated to pay restitution for the damages it caused. The ones in power shut down economies, so their budgets should reimburse businesses for their losses. The problem I see with this is that 1) it's already too late for many businesses. They're already closed. 2) How do you determine how much they're owed? Perhaps look at each business' quarterly filings from 2019 and pay them the difference? Note that this would be FAR more than is proposed by any stimulus legislation. 3) Where is the money coming from?! Revenue raised in taxes of course - which means the government needs a strong, rebounding economy to rebound the economy! Sorry government. You caused this mess, but I think you should just say "sorry" and give me a hug rather than try to set my broken arm.
  5. 4 points
    I fall back to my old rule: “does me being here cleaning your house (or whatever) actually helping for you in the long term? “
  6. 3 points
    estradling75

    Views on Stimulus

    In additional these Stimulus packages have a lot more then just the checks to citizens... Its a majority of pork and special interest spending that got authorized in the name of "helping those who are hurting"
  7. 3 points
    Traveler

    Views on Stimulus

    I am not an economists. I do know how to do math and hold to the KISS concept of money - KISS stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. The stupid term is not pointed at anyone but rather s rhetorical. I think of money as a means of exchange. The money itself is worthless but is given power by what backs up or support the money. Money itself is economy and therefore responds to supply and demand. Inflation is the result of money being available - there more money there is in circulation - the less it is worth. But this can all get rather tricky because as wealth increases the more money become valuable. So the simple answer, in my mind, is that when a government generates more money without increasing wealth - the less value that money can draw in exchanges. I have also learned a lesson about giving someone in need some money. I am convinced this will never solve any problem and in the long run will make those receiving the money dependent. If we want to help someone - we ought to be free with goods and services that are needed. First because money is not the same as goods and services and Second - Goods and services are will be seen as a sacrifice that ought to be appreciated - whereas money becomes an entitlement that is seldom appreciated. A good example of this is a kid in college. If they request help and instead of sending money offer goods and services - the kids seem to become much more invested in getting their own money. Whenever my kids have stated that they want a job that pays "good" money. I tend to sit down with them and explain that any money they make on their own is "good" money. Bad money is the money you obtain with nothing offered in return. Thus stimulus is "bad" money. The Traveler
  8. 3 points
    Carborendum

    Snow!Snow!Snow!

    So, it appears to be fixed. I had to call my BIL for advice on how to remove a sharkbite connector that didn't seal properly. Apparently a properly sized crescent wrench will do the job. I spent about 30 minutes shoving as much rector seal into that joint as possible. So far, so good. I'm concerned that the rector seal is only a temporary solution. So, I will need to get real parts when they become available. The carpet is still drying from the burst pipe. I got the fan and the dehumidifier right next to the wet area. Slowly but surely. Everything seems almost normal. Laundry machines, dishwasher, showers. Oh! blessed showers! Wow that felt so good. I just felt so grimy from head to toe with all the physical labor I had to do this week. Cutting and splitting oak is not an easy feat, especially for a guy my size. Luckily, my ministering brother is quite a bit on the large side. "Brawny" is a perfect adjective. He brought over a truckbed (About a 1/4 chord) of oak and we spent some time taking turns with the axe, and the sledge/wedge combo. I'll tell you what. I'm very happy I invested in that all steel 14 lb maul. We hit the wedge with the handle about as often as we it it with the head. Adjusting for our relative sizes, I think I carried my share of the load. One really cool fun fact: If you spend about 10-20 min. with a 14 lb maul, an axe seems like a toothpick afterwards. After all is said and done my wife really saved our lives this week. She keeps downplaying her role. But I analyzed all the basic necessities and how we managed to have them throughout this week. She was responsible for every single one of them. Half of them were things she got a year or more ago. If it hadn't been for her, I honestly think we would have frozen to death or died of dehydration. I keep thanking her. And she keeps rolling her eyes at me.
  9. 2 points
    Vort

    Conclusions from D&C 132: 16 - 17?

    It's a matter of honesty. I much prefer straightforward evangelizing to a fake pretense of seeking to understand. Of course, the straightforward evangelizer might be told that his efforts are inappropriate for this forum, while the person merely pretending to seek understanding can fly under the radar for some period of time.
  10. 2 points
    We believe the same. So that should help you interpret what is there. To interpret properly, first assume that you already believe in all this belief system. Then look at what is written against that background and derive what you can. As it is now, all you see is "what is different from what I believe?". That is fine if you are looking for a true compare contrast. But you're not. You're using this method to put us on trial and make us convince you that you're wrong and we're right. That's not our job. Only the Holy Ghost will teach you what is true.
  11. 1 point
    mirkwood

    Rush Limbaugh

    Well, we had a good Sacrament Meeting. Three talks, no mention of Rush, or Neil, Alex and Geddy for that matter and I was one of the speakers.
  12. 1 point
    Grunt

    Rush Limbaugh

    Great organization.
  13. 1 point
    I just got a call, my kid declared he cannot believe in the Church anymore. I was mystified and asked him why? His area is in crisis with Hospital beds and the Hospitals themselves are putting out requests to wear masks, not meet in large groups and other measures to try to contain the virus. Apparently he just went to church this morning via Zoom. They HAD stopped meeting for a few weeks when the numbers started shooting up. They decided this week that they needed to meet again. Their stake president stood up and said that they had stopped meeting and the president had received inspiration that he needed to repent on this and meetings needed to start up again (this, while the numbers are critical in their area and several of the members had already died from the previous times they met). This is why they are meeting again, because the Stake President said the Spirit told him that they had to meet together. My son was furious on the phone about this, but decided that this guy was so full of worshipping Trump that they will put their own worship over that of actually caring what is happening in the community. He cannot believe the Spirit would tell someone to do something that harmful to the community at this time. His conclusion was if the Stake President was calling this the Spirit telling him that the Stake needed to meet right as the Hospitals were running out of beds, that wasn't the Spirit or any Deity talking, but a guy's emotional state instead. He is not going to go to a Church which is dictated by political driven emotions rather than the actual Spirit of the Lord. So, infuriated my kid just called me. I guess to vent and to explain why he had...as of today, decided he could no longer be a member of the church and to vent at me. He was upset. Over ONE statement by his Stake President. Emotions must be high. I told him that people, even leaders, are only human. However, it wasn't that this was a human decision, but being stated that it was revelation. He feels, deep in his heart the Lord would not be asking the Stake to meet in an area where they are guaranteed to spread the virus leading to the deaths of those attending. I've asked for the link which he said he uses in regards to Covid Risk assessment and the chances of people having COVID. As it just happened the past few minutes I have not gotten the link yet, but I once again, do not know what to say or do. I actually also feel the Leader got things, but not necessarily revelation...but is letting their own feelings dictate to them what they feel is revelation. I'm not there though and I'm not privy to the leader's revelatory process. Unfortunately, it seems it is driving my son and his entire family out of the Church? Hopefully this is something that is just his current emotion (he does tend to get emotional at times) and doesn't stick with him for long, but if it does...I really have no idea what to do. When a leader says something that is obviously evil and callous...and says it is direct revelation...and people feel it is that way and are driven from the Church...how do you combat that? The area my son is in IS pretty bad off. I think this week there was a prediction that there would be no more beds for patients in the hospitals if things keep up. The Church meeting in a ward seems to spit directly in contradiction to the seriousness of what is occurring in the area. Because of this, at least one entire family (and if my son isn't alone, perhaps more) may leave the Church (I haven't given up hope from one phone call, but my son was rather distressed). It seems contrary to everything the Lord would want or stand for...but...it is what it is. If my son doesn't change, it seems he and his family are going to be out of the Church now. What can I do?
  14. 1 point
    Carborendum

    Views on Stimulus

    I am actually for the initial stimulus. But I'm not for these later waves, including the most recent check from the outgoing administration. If the same amount is given to every citizen in the country, then the citizens get to vote with their dollars on what companies they want to support because they offer useful products at a good price. And it lets us decide what a "useful product" is. I would have added a joint legislative and executive request/encouragement for those who don't need it to donate it to someone they think needs it or donate to a worthy cause. I would not draw an arbitrary income level based on a year old financial statement (tax returns). When done in this manner, a stimulus is not a matter of the government choosing winners and losers. The only other question is "how much?". Now that is really the problem. If it is too small, it really won't help anyone. If it is too much, it will do too much damage to the economy. Since it is the nature of politicians to give out candy, the upper limit will always be ignored and economic ruin will follow. -- just as it did in Argentina under Peron. And that is the exact sort of thing we see in the current stimulus bill that will eventually make its way to the President's desk after they invoke the nuclear option.
  15. 1 point
    Vort

    Views on Stimulus

    It is when the improving standard of living comes at the cost of undermining our economic system and eating our seed corn.
  16. 1 point
    Fether

    Views on Stimulus

    Is inflation so bad as long as the market stays active and the standard of living continues to improve?
  17. 1 point
    NeuroTypical

    Snow!Snow!Snow!

    This event really brings home the importance of stuff like this: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/all-is-safely-gathered-in-family-home-storage/family-home-storage?lang=eng
  18. 1 point
    Jane_Doe

    Conclusions from D&C 132: 16 - 17?

    The Protestant view of Heaven is much akin to the LDS Telestrial Kingdom: folks there celebrating Christ as single and servants. Yes, your spouse is there but you aren’t married anyone, etc.
  19. 1 point
    I am not sure that the importance of this Executive Order is very well understood or appreciated. So here is a little more information about what the Executive Order was put in place to do: The point I am attempting to highlight in showing light on this executive order is that if indeed anyone believes the climate change political model and truly believe we must do whatever we can to change our reliance on fossil fuels and switch to "renewable" resources they would realize that in the last 50 years no administration or president has done more to make such a cause viable that did the previous administration. No nation can rely on renewable resources without enough control of these critical elements to meet the needs and demands of their society. The Traveler
  20. 1 point
    JohnsonJones

    The Gospel

    It is in the Lord's hands to judge on whether someone has had that opportunity to receive the gospel in this life or not and then rejected it. There are many variables and we do not understand all of them. It is correct though in our current teachings, if someone truly had the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life and rejected it, then they have limited their options in the next, as you say. How that is judged is not really known to us. For example, if you have someone such as my mother whom I gave a Book of Mormon to and talked about the church with from the time I was baptized, did she actually reject the gospel? She never spoke ill about it, but she never seemed to tell me that she actually got a strong witness and knew it was true. Without that witness of the Holy Ghost, as a reasonable person, did she actually have the opportunity to know it was the true church or not? My hopes are that she has the opportunity to fully accept the gospel and the ordinances thereof for the greatest rewards she can obtain...but the judgements are the Lords and not mine to make. Now, if the DO reject the gospel in this life, they will have opportunities to accept the gospel and ordinances in the next life, but their rewards are limited (as you say). They will not be able to receive the highest degree of glory or rewards, but may be given lesser rewards. As the Bible says, (KJV version) in John 14.
  21. 1 point
    JohnsonJones

    Rush Limbaugh

    He downplayed the relationship between smoking tobacco and cancer. He died of lung cancer if we believe what he was diagnosed with. It seems clear that in some ways he was his greatest enemy regarding his own health. However, his life brings one of those great questions. If one of your great pleasures in life is smoking a cigar, is it better to enjoy 70 years of life, or live miserably for 100? Obviously, as we are members of the Church this is something we do not really bring into our questions as we do not smoke (but what I'd do for a cup of coffee if allowed, but have no touched the stuff for decades...which should actually tell me how addicted I was to it). I listened to Paul Harvey as well...loved "the rest of the story" portions he did. I even bought the book once upon a time. I don't know where it these days. Fabulous book, fabulous to listen to on the Radio. I didn't agree with many of Limbaugh's opinions or ideas, but I DID listen to his show regularly. I have a decent length commute to work and his show seemed to be timed (it could have been a rerun considering the hour I normally was driving) to be on during my drive. I may not have agreed with many of his views but he was a VERY entertaining speaker. He was fun to listen to. My opinion was that sometimes he expressed things he didn't actually believe himself, but more to cause people to think about the issue and to create enough of a stir to keep him in the media (free advertising, not the only individual to do that type of stuff). I also think he was a strong believer in the Constitution and very loyal to his idea of patriotism to the ideals of the United States. He actually wrote several children's history books and I think he had a heartfelt love of the US. I didn't agree with his form of politics or his ideas, but I think he was a very strong patriot in his own way throughout his life, and that patriotism changed some aspects of conservatism and activism during his lifetime. Whether conservative, Liberal, or Independent I think most would agree he had an impact on Americans and their views of life, politics, and radio talkshows.
  22. 1 point
    I'd focus first on: "what is charity?" It is the pure love of Christ. It's not giving stuff away, it's not working for free, it's not feeding the hungry, it's not being part of a Facebook group, etc. (Though charity can indeed motivate each of those actions). It is first and foremost that feeling of God-like love. People and situations are diverse. Yes, there are times that giving of temporal goods in an act of love. And there's also times where it is NOT a loving act. Even God Himself can (and frequently does) answer prayers for temporal or other things with a "no". And as part of our learning discernment is learning to likewise say "no" when it's the right thing to do. And there are MANY times where "no" is the right answer and giving someone something they ask for is actually hurtful to them. MANY times.
  23. 1 point
    Fether

    Charity: Feeling jaded on charity

    I try to give to strangers sparingly. I have limited service ability (particularly fiscally) so when I choose to aid someone, I pick people I know or an organization I trust. Making a community based on charity or consecration is a good idea... but it is a bad idea if anyone is allowed in. it is going to make up people who are either givers or takers. There is little reciprocity from the takers . The only time it works is when the community is selective and there is a common understanding and expectation of responsibility.
  24. 1 point
    scottyg

    Simpler Vocabulary

    “It is true intelligence for a man to take a subject that is mysterious and great in itself, and to unfold and simplify it so that a child can understand it” John Taylor
  25. 1 point
    I'm sorry to hear this about your son @JohnsonJones, I'm sure it can't be easy. I'll take the side of the Stake President for the moment. There are more things to consider in life than just the potential of 'Covid'. Our stake meets every Sunday for the full 2hr Church and has for months. Our stake offers in person services AND all meetings are sent over Zoom. Each member/family can decide for themselves which avenue is best for them. Stay at home if you feel more comfortable there OR come to church if that is better for you. The Stake President needs to consider not just the physical health of his stake but also the spiritual, emotional and mental health of his stake. There are problems far more damaging to many members beside the hype of Covid. Isolation, depression, suicide, lack of friendship, lack of human interaction, etc. can be more damaging and longer lasting than the potential of Covid. I've spoken with several mental health professionals and they say that our fear of Covid, the isolation from Covid, stay at home orders, zoom learning for school can be more traumatic and damaging than Covid for many people. Can you die from Covid... perhaps. Can you die from choking on a grape during lunch... perhaps. Some individuals are so consumed with the infamous death stalker 'covid' that they are willing to subject others to a whole host of other mental and emotional problems instead. If someone doesn't want to go to Church... don't go. There are plenty of people who need in-person church. Having been through many discussions and counsels with our Stake President, he takes into consideration the whole picture of the Stake... much of which the average member may never be privy to.