The Folk Prophet

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The Folk Prophet last won the day on September 15 2019

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About The Folk Prophet

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    Not here...but watching...always watching

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    Male
  • Location
    Saratoga Springs, UT
  • Religion
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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  1. The Folk Prophet

    Plandemic and 5G conspiracies and...

    Do share then.
  2. The Folk Prophet

    Plandemic and 5G conspiracies and...

    ...what in the world is going on?! The license to go crazy has gone mainstream. Seriously. One of my closest friends for the last 20 years sent me the Plandemic video and when I didn't buy off on its full legitimacy immediately he flipped out and cut off our relationship for good. Is this what we're becoming? I'm only trying to exert the smallest amount of moderation in my views. (Surprise, surprise, I can be moderate in some things.) But apparently any sort of moderation and hoping/waiting for facts is unacceptable any longer. The kind of things I'm seeing people post on social media and believing whole-hog without evidence is...well, it's truly shocking. I know there's evil in the world. I know there's evil in government. I know there's evil in big pharm. I know there's evil in capitalism. I know there's evil in socialism. I know there's evil pretty much everywhere. Does that mean I have to buy off on any youtube video that supports someone's particular narrative or I'm the bad guy? Sure...I'm concerned by these evils. I'm much more concerned by the evil that seems to be stewing and brewing in my friends, neighbors, and family. The hatred and bitterness I'm seeing from them on Facebook and the like. We're supposed to be followers of Christ. And we're supposed to be one in Him. We're not supposed to hate each other for not buying off on all the minutia of our particular extreme brand of political think. Anyhow, I'm not really joining again here, but I do read, and thought the discussion of some of these conspiracies and the like would be interesting. So go for it.
  3. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    Honestly I just wanted to ask him what his motivations were and see if I could get an upfront answer. I expect I wouldn't have.
  4. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    Well, I had sort of been hoping to get into it a bit with the OP, (who I actually respect intellectually and his understanding and education by and large, but feel he's missed the boat on a few ideas here). But as he seems to have abandoned the thread for now at least, and as I'm actually not interested in re-attending the forum generally, I'm taking off again. Perhaps I'll pipe up again if he comes back and replies more.
  5. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    Right. Do we keep the commandments because we have accepted Christ or do we accept Christ by keeping his commandments? Aren't both sort of true? I honestly don't understand the new-fangled preaching about grace that keeps popping up. Shouldn't we be, moreso, focused on things that we have control of rather than something we don't? I am less concerned with whether Christ's grace is conditional or not as I am over what I need to do. I can only control my works. Therefore my concern is my works. "Ah," but one says, "it's important that we understand this concept!" "Oh yeah?" I ask. "How do I go about understanding it then?" "Why through study, thought and effort, of course," they reply. "Oh...you mean by my works?" "......🦗🦗🦗🦗......" These debates are somewhat semantically ridiculous because depending on how you look at it, one cannot get away from works. Just accept Christ's grace says one? Well, that's a work says I. Which makes the whole debate seem silly. There seems to be this, sort of, "you're doing it wrong" idea behind proposals like the OP offers. The question I ask myself (as I've stated) is simple: What do I need to be doing? It's as simple as that. And that means works. Am I motivated by and grateful for Christ's grace? Oh yes. Very much. And if there is a problem with people taking pride in their works and crediting their salvation to themselves (as I expect there is in cases) then there does, in those cases, need to be some better perspective, humility, and improved understanding. But that doesn't seem to be the point of the OP or the attached interview.
  6. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    Exactly. We are, indeed, saved by grace despite all we can do. We are also saved by grace, very literally, postliminarily "after" all we can do. This is why I don't, per se, have a problem with the idea of understanding it to be "despite" except in that it seems to be trying to supplant the common understanding. It's the conclusions being drawn that bothers me. Part of what bothers me about it is the assumption that everyone who thinks we are saved by grace in the end "after" all our own efforts also believes that we earned that salvation. It's trying to fix a problem that does not exist that I'm aware of in the church. Two more things that are not mutually exclusive. Just because I believe I have to pay the price asked does not mean I believe the price is equal to the reward.
  7. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    I don't think the idea of holistic "legal code" is the proper approach either. As I'm sure you're well aware, even holistic legal code can only be interpreted when there is a shared understanding of phrases and meaning in the legal community. I'm mindful of @Vort getting on anyone's case who uses the phrase "begs the question" incorrectly. Technically, he's right, and yet per the literal meaning of the words and the common usage by those not in the know, he's sort of wrong. And yet he's right. And wrong. But who are we to say that the Lord, knowing full well that the lay person in the church would understand "after all we can do" to mean we have to do everything we can to qualify for grace didn't fully intend those words to be used in that way, even if Joseph really meant "despite all we can do"? The implication otherwise is that the entire church has been wrong and misinterpreting scripture for most of the history of the restored church -- but isn't that exactly why we have a living prophet -- to make sure we aren't being led astray? Didn't the great apostasy occurred precisely because such was lost and academic interpretations guided instead. And what have our prophets been teaching us for the history of the restored church about the meaning of that scripture? But some smarter-than-y'all know-it-all wants to come along and tell everyone the prophets are wrong and the academic, I've-studied-this-better interpretation of the scripture is the true and accurate one. Upon whose arm are we to really rely here? The problem I really have, as I've articulated up thread, is the question of why anyone would argue that it must mean "despite". What's the point? I think the truth is actually not that difficult and those who argue for a convoluted twist in the meaning based on a flimsy* argument are just as off based as those arguing for a concrete postliminary-only meaning. It seems pretty straight forward to me for anyone reasonably educated in the gospel. Grace is not earned. But we must qualified for it. Why anyone in the church would argue otherwise is really beyond me. "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." D&C 130:20–21 (emphasis mine) This plain (call it legal code if you will) scripture refutes any concept that grace, a decided blessing from God, is not predicated upon obedience (works). It is. Full stop. End of argument. In fact there are so many scriptures that teach the same sort of idea that it's really strange to me that this idea keeps rearing its head here and there. It should be obvious to the linguistics master that "earned" is a subjective idea and in one sense we do, indeed, "earn" salvation, but in another sense we very much do not "earn" salvation. That's not particularly difficult to grasp, methinks. And yet, apparently, it is. * I haven't seen all the examples the OP has for believing "after all we can do" was commonly used to mean "despite all we can do" but from what I've heard the argument seems flimsy. The idea that it was used in certain noteworthy writings doesn't mean that the average commoner understood it to mean that. And Joseph, at the time of translating the Book of Mormon, was ignorant and unlearned (as described by Emma). The likelihood of his familiarity with phrases that were not, indeed, common in daily speech is unlikely. Showing a phrase to be common in published writing does not show it to be common in the provincial. I have a hard time believing that the general populace in the early church would have understood the words, "after all we can do" to mean anything other than what the words say at their face value, in the same way most people understand "begs the question" to mean "pleads for a question". Moreover, the examples I did hear used modifier words. The ideas of "We are saved by grace after all we can do" is quite different than something like, "We are saved by grace even after all we can do". One word can drastically change the meaning of a phrase, and examples with different phrasing don't prove the meaning in this case.
  8. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    There. Avatar properly nerded up and chocolate frosting confusion averted.
  9. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    I am a secret nerd who taught himself how to braid bullwhips so as to not have to pay $1000 for a David Morgan whip (the guy who made them for the Indiana Jones movies). 10 years and like $3000 or so later I can make a whip that's like almost 2/3rds the quality of a David Morgan! The image is one of the original whips from the Indiana Jones trilogy. I think from the 3rd one. I put it as my avatar because I was updating my "Religion" to use the full name of the church and decided to grab a different avatar too. The thought came from the fact that I've recently purchased more leather to braid a new whip, hopefully improving on my quality and getting to 4/5ths the quality of a David Morgan for only another $300 in materials or so. I pretend annoyance, but the truth is the process has been a lot more fun than just buying an expensive one. Turns out I like making them more than cracking them. #manlyCrafts
  10. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    Having a hard time staying out of this thread despite* (*pun intended) intentional inactivity in the forum. This premise doesn't square with the idea of Joseph blocking light with a hat so he could see the literal words appearing. There are plenty of reports that imply Joseph didn't translate the Book of Mormon into anything but the words the Lord intended him to use. Of course they're secondhand reports and not entirely consistent, and even if fully accurate don't imply the entire process was the same. But still, we have, I believe, fairly good reason to believe the words used in the Book of Mormon are, generally speaking, from the Lord rather than from Joseph's idea of what it might/should say. Indeed, that is part of the miracle of the Book of Mormon, and differs distinctly from the revelations in the Doctrine & Covenants. Now, how someone could think that the Lord showing/providing Joseph what words to use meant Joseph lost his agency is very perplexing.
  11. The Folk Prophet

    Despite All We Can Do

    Jumping on for just a bit here: I cannot understand the motivation behind the "after all means despite" argument. For example, in the end of the interview Laura Hales says: "Yet we still cannot in our social culture, dissolve the almost magnetic attraction of works to the discussion of salvation. We always need to tack on that, but you need the ordinances, but you need to endure to the end." Well...yeah, Laura. That's a good thing, is it not? What am I concerned with in the gospel? What should I be concerned with? That's what matters to me. It comes down to a simple question: What do I need to do? The objective here seems to be to push people further away from that question. That seems highly problematic. Why would we want to teach people to believe what they do is of no import? Either that or the objective seems to be some sort of intellectual braggadocio. This is the plain truth: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." (emphasis mine). We can wrest the scriptures all we want but this article of faith remains true. Christ's is a works based gospel. Always has been. Always will be. The reality that we're saved by Grace doesn't change that, or really relate. I don't have a problem with the idea that we are saved by grace "despite" all we can do in an of itself. The idea is correct. We cannot save ourselves. But I know of no one in the church that I've ever met or heard of that believes the Atonement of Christ was unnecessary because we can save ourselves. If anyone did believe that they'd clearly be in a state of severe apostasy. Nevertheless, the "tack on" idea that we need the ordinances and to endure to the end is obviously of paramount importance. Isn't our prophet constantly pushing us to be concerned with being on the covenant path? Are we not saved through the Atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel? Are we not commanded, accordingly, to repent, serve, preach, sacrifice, etc, and make and keep covenants? And if we don't do such is not our salvation forfeit? So why the drive to push people's thinking in a different way? I seriously can't understand the...how was it put....rhetorical need behind this argument.
  12. The Folk Prophet

    BYU to allow same-sex dancing at annual competition

    https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2020/04/11/how-two-women-made/?fbclid=IwAR1cMilwWL13vPsBA6YNJGyG2slowdg1AQg1M3IG0EyaDk6I1qr4V6IhNdI Cross dressing question answered.
  13. The Folk Prophet

    Alma & Amulek Musical

    Available on CD now: https://www.amazon.com/Alma-Amulek-Charles-Dail-Nielson/dp/B084DGQ58M/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=alma+%26+amulek&qid=1581008833&sr=8-2 Or for MP3 purchase: https://www.amazon.com/Amulek-Complete-Musical-Concept-Recording/dp/B083GCRG4S/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=alma+%26+amulek&qid=1581008833&sr=8-1 Though it's free to listen to through Spotify and the like with ads, etc.
  14. The Folk Prophet

    Alma & Amulek Musical

    Thought some of you might find some interest in this. https://distrokid.com/hyperfollow/charlesdailnielson/alma--amulek-the-complete-musical-concept-recording
  15. The Folk Prophet

    Goodbye

    Our baby boy.