ZenWarrior

Hi DigitalShadow, I've read through some, but not all, of the posts on this thread and would like to share my views. First though I'd like to state that I don't question your motives for asking these questions, or judge you negatively for so doing. You seem, from what I have read, to be very honest and sincere; it comes through in your post and I admire that. You ask some excellent questions. Here are my thoughts. The question of "how deep do I believe the Book of Mormon" got me thinking about the long (and still ongoing) process of introspection, study, prayer and self-analysis that I've done to understand the truthfulness of the book. "Do I just want to believe?" Do I believe because my parents told me so?" "Do I believe so that I find acceptance within the Church?" All these questions, and others, I have wrestled with at some time or another. However, through studying the principles and teaching in the Book of Mormon I have felt a great power come into my life. Many times I have felt that my understanding opened up concerning the principles of the Gospel and my understanding of myself. I have felt at times overwhelming feelings of pure joy and love for others and a sincere motivation to better myself and become more Christ-like. It wasn't a sudden change for me; rather it was gradual. Piece by piece a solid foundation has been built, to the point now where I can truly say that I know the principles taught in the Book of Mormon are true. As Christ said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17). So it is by doing that we receive a testimony and through my own experience I have found Jesus' statement to be accurate. The next part of your question is about whether anything could convince me that the Book of Mormon was not true. I think there are several elements to my answer of this question. First, as I alluded to above, there is nothing that could convince me that the principles taught in the Book of Mormon are false. Even if God appeared to me and said they were false principles I wouldn't accept it. That may sound absurd. But if that actually happened then God would be telling me that to care for others, to repent of my mistakes and sins, to inspire the best in mankind, to be humble, virtuous and loving are all false principles. I think my brain would melt down. Secondly, there are some things that could cause me to re-examine my assumptions about the Book of Mormon. An interesting point here is that up until recently many members of the Church assumed that the Nephites and Lamanites were the primary ancestors of the American Indians, however, in light of new DNA evidence many have been compelled to question that assumption. It doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is false, only that we had an incorrect assumption about what it was telling us. Current thinking is that the Nephites and Lamanites were among the ancestors of the native American but that other significant races were also involved. Of course, if we're cynical, we could call it back pedalling but I don't see it that way. I guess if God appeared to me, and I was certain he was the true God and not some impostor, and he told me I was on the wrong path, then I would say, 'sorry, I really thought I was on the right track, please tell me what is the right way'. I would then listen and try to understand. However, if the principles I received were based on anything less than compassion and love for mankind and creation, then I would not accept them, and I suppose I would have to take whatever punishment that was given to me. Well, I hope all that makes some sense to you and that it helps you understand where I'm coming from. Good luck with your efforts and studies and I hope you find something of value for you by understanding and applying the principles of the Gospel in your life.

Hi. I saw your original post and was intrigued. I haven't read through the entire thread so apologies if I repeat what someone else has already said. My view on evolution is that it is an essential part of human existence; we know evolution occurs in nature through natural selection. I personally believe that God designed nature so that it could adapt and respond to a changing environment, much the same way that human architects design large buildings to flex thus protecting them from strong winds and tremors. However, to say that man's evolution from single cell organisms, which themselves in turn spontaneously generated from primordial soup, has been proven is a big jump. The theory of evolution is still a theory; it cannot be demonstrated as fact, otherwise it wouldn't be called a theory. The frustrating thing for me though is that it is often presented as a fact. There is a reason for this; as far as I understand the scientific community will not disregard a theory until it is proven false (a difficult feat me thinks regardless of the subject - try to prove a negative, I think you'll agree). On the other hand there are scientists who think that the theory of evolution should be abandoned due to lack of evidence. Here's a link I found really quickly. It might be an interesting place to start, trust me there is loads of stuff out there that puts forth logical arguments against evolution. Happy surfing! Top Evidences Against the Theory of Evolution The next point I'd like to talk about is faith. Don't worry about a lack of faith. The fact that you've said you lack faith shows you're honest with yourself and understand the emotional dynamics within you. It's not wrong to have questions or to see something from another point of view to someone else. I'd say apply what you learn about the gospel in your life, embrace the principles and over time a strong conviction will grow in you that you're on the right path. It's not something you can rush, it will happen naturally. This juxtaposition of faith and science has got me thinking. In a way we put our faith in science; we trust that they actually know beyond doubt that things are the way the textbooks say. But in reality, how much do they really know? Our best scientific understanding is constantly being updated, corrected and in some instances, completely re-written. In direct relation to the subject at hand (evolution), if we presented our best scientists with the elements of the periodic table and challenged them to create a blade of grass from scratch, how far do you think they would get? I personally think that they would be completely at a loss. That's not to diminish the value of science, but rather to understand how limited our scientific understanding is. Therefore, in my mind, it doesn't seem reasonable for me to take science's word for the origin of humanity when they don't truly comprehend the nature of a blade of grass (let alone the Universe). Anyway, those are my thoughts. Hopefully they are of some use to you. I also want to be clear that I don't dismiss the value of scientific learning, I want to understand as much as possible and science has helped me to do this in many ways.

Hi xanmad33. I'm new here and have been reading some of the discussions you've been having and I just wanted to put my tupence worth in. I'll say in advance that I'm not the type that spends much time on the internet and my account is set to not notify me of any responses, so pre-emptive apologies if I don't get back to you on any counter points you put to me. I'm assuming that your purpose here is mutual understanding. In my view this is the most productive approach. I threw away my old view that everyone would agree with my own understanding once they knew my logic and explanation some time ago (yet every so often I still fall into that trap - hey I'm human). With that in mind I have something to put to you (without any intention to offend); I feel you do not accept other peoples' logic for their interpretation of scripture. As in the quotes above, I felt that the other person in the discussion with you gave logical, reasonable and valid reasons as to why he believes a certain way. However, rather than say words to the effect of, "yes, I understand your point of view, but I personally think otherwise for these reasons: X, Y, Z", you seem to be totally dismissive. I think this is a problem. Again, I don't want to offend you; this isn't a personal attack on you. I just feel that there is a more productive approach. In a way it seems, at times, that your stand point is one of, "prove to me that what you believe is true by using my interpretation of scripture!" If I misunderstand you, which is entirely possible, then I humbly apologise. In relation to the above quotes, I can see where you are coming from; I think I understand your opinion on the subject and your logic and reason for believing so. Equally though, there are others who study the scriptures, use the best of their understanding and knowledge to comprehend it terms of context and prayerfully search for understanding (as I'm sure you do too), and yet come to conclusions, which, may in part, differ from your own. Does this mean they are wrong? Does this mean you are wrong? The truth is, it doesn't mean anything; it is merely a difference of opinion. I personally believe the doctrine taught by the LDS Church concerning the nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I believe so because through all of my experience, study and prayerful consideration I have come to this understanding; it doesn't make any sense at all to me any other way. Could I be mistaken about things? Of course. I believe there are some things that I am not mistaken about, but I try to keep an open mind so that I am prepared for any further understanding God my give me through the inspiration of his Spirit. In closing, I'd like to say that I respect your opinion and would defend your right to have it, even if it differs from my own.